What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Leading Edge Woes

David Paule

Well Known Member
I'm having trouble with the leading edge skins. When I get them in place and about where I want them, there's a sort of flat spot right behind the leading edge bend, especially between the ribs. The original set of outboard skins got damaged when I tried to fix that, and now the tank skins, which I haven't drilled yet, are showing signs of the same issue.

Suggestions very much appreciated....

Thanks,
Dave
 
Had the same problem

I tried riveting from the middle moving outboard on the spar. Seemed to help a little. I also heard from others the the holes in the skins and spar are not 100% in line. If you start from the center see how they line up moving outboard.
 
This is an RV-3. The skins and ribs are not pre-punched. I'm doing the initial fitting up before drilling the holes.

Dave
 
The ribs are okay. It's a skin issue, not a rib issue. In fact, the problem shows up mostly between the ribs.

Is there some trick to clamping or tying them down that I haven't learned yet?

Dave
 
Wish I could, unfortunately it's not easy to catch in a photo. But you can easily feel it.

The tank skin is strapped down right now and I can easily feel the change from the leading edge curve to the flat spot, it's almost abrupt, and the proper curve resumes about 3/4" farther aft.

What I'm hoping for is that someone will post how they did theirs and what their outcome was. Or maybe there's a link to how to do this correctly.

Thanks,
Dave
 
Paul can look at Tsam and comment more intelligently (since she and he are in a different state than me) but I think her leading edges on the factory-built wings have a similar issue. I've assumed that the curvature is just too radical on those small wings to get everything perfectly smooth. Doesn't seem to affect her flight characteristics or awesomeness! :p
 
Are yout talking about the upper surface Dave? I'll take a close look at Tsam later today, but I haven't noticed anything untoward. Does it seem like it is going "flat" right on top of the spar?
 
Paul, yes, it is the upper surface, but it's right at the aft edge of the factory- formed leading edge radius, well forward of the spar. And it seems to be between the ribs, not on the ribs.

Thanks,
Dave
 
Hi Dave,

I took a look yesterday when I was over with Tsam (thanks to Louise reminding me), and I really didn't notice a significant discontinuity in curve at the aft end of the sheet - the curve is pretty small at that point though, so it is hard to tell. We DO have some flat spots on each rib right at the first rib rivet - the skin is pretty thin, and my guess is that the ribs didn't fit perfectly, but the QB'ers just pressed ahead.

You should check with Dave Howe - his -3B wings are true works of art, and if anyone can tell you if you have a problem, it's Dave!
 
I decided to do the tanks now because those ribs go clear to the leading edge and support the leading edge radius, so I could strap the skin down and rely on the ribs to get the radius correct. That gives me this (strapped down, no holes drilled yet.)

b8l3i9.jpg


This is the inboard end of the right tank, and if you look at the edge of the skin, on the top surface (right side in the photo) starting just about where the nibble in the rib is at the front, there's a flat spot for about an inch - that's what I want to correct.

And I say "correct" because that's not part of the airfoil design. It's part of the way these skins seem to be bent or perhaps how they're positioned on the ribs - although there's no choice for these tank skins, since the rib seems correct and the skin mostly conforms to it.

In another thread (http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=85658, post 69) Paul suggests shimming the skin to the rib immediately aft of this area where there appears to be a gap between the skin and the rib flange. I thought that perhaps the flange wasn't bent right there, and this morning went out to the shop and used a small piece of paper, cut into a narrow triangle, to confirm that the rib flange needs tweaking. I could not slide the piece of paper into that gap past the web of the rib; the skin is snug there.

Paper's about .003" thick and conforms to curves. It makes a great feeler for things like this.

I'll be out of town for a period now and will be back to this then. Right now, my plan is to remove the skin, check all the tank ribs and my role locations, and then put the skin on and drill it. But I've got a bit of time today, so I'll remove those .063 squares holding the tank aft skin (see the other thread about those) and see where it falls then, and whether the flat spot changes. Short of rebending the skin - and it doesn't look like a leading edge correction is needed - or adding more bend to that flat area - and I don't know how to do that - or a judicious shim, I'm out of ideas.

Dave
 
Last edited:
More Photos

This shows that the tank and outboard skins not only is the leading edge radius formed by Van's, the factory also formed the top surface. The flat area was formed into the skins.

2em3pqu.jpg


This shows the flat area on the top surface just a bit away from an edge:

jzi1cw.jpg


And here's a shot at the edge of the skin. These skins are not being forced to conform to the ribs - they're just being stored in place on the wing frame. I have held the upper surface to the spar with those handy square .063 pieces, which you can see in the top photo, but that's all.

fo3vyg.jpg


So now the question is, how do I get the right shape?

Dave
 
Last edited:
Wing Skin Resolution

Dave,

What did you end up doing? Roll them a little more yourself? ;)

I have seen Vans employees forming the curve in skins,and it looks like they use a steel cylinder (horizontally oriented) that comes down on the middle of the alum sheet, pushing it downward between two other steel rollers. This would mean the the alum sheet at the very front of the curve would want to conform to the shape of the middle cylinder (maybe it's actually shaped like the tip of the airfoil, but looked round), but only until that cylinder passes by the rollers. From then on, the skin bends due to the movement (i.e. it's not press-formed). I would expect that the flat spot you're noticing occurs during this transition. To properly form the curve throughout would take many more rollers on the sides (at different locations in the curve) and perhaps a middle "press" shaped like the complete airfoil instead of just a cylinder with the radius of the airfoil tip. Just a guess that this caused the problem, and I probably didn't explain my theory to well, but there it is...

P.S. I've been reading up on the 3 now for some time, trying to cram all your knowledge (and that of others) into my head..:(
 
I went to see David Howe in California and learned how to do it.

I've got one tank skin clecoed on now and am working on the other one. When I've got the outboard skins clecoed on I'll post how I've been doing it with photos. My sequence is a bit different than Van's and there are a few details worth recounting, if it continues to go well.

The manual is right in one respect, and that's that the baffle definitely gets loaded up.

Dave
 
Here's What Worked For My Tank Skins

I started with outboard leading edge ribs clecoed in place and the tank ribs clecoed and pop riveted to the baffle per the manual. That pop riveting step is important.

Next, I made a set of what I'm calling Howe Fittings for David Howe, who explained how they provide the necessary resultant force vectors to the skin. I made one per strap per side. Since I used four straps, that's four of these on either side. Here's a top one.

11hgop4.jpg


David suggested using strapping tape to help hold the ribs and it really, really helped:

148pvcw.jpg


With these preliminaries out of the way -

1. Fit the tank skin to the ribs. Tighten the straps and verify that the top side?s aft edge is very close to the main skin?s forward edge. Assuming it is, and both of mine were,

2. Unstrap the skin and remove it.

3. For the top of the wing, drill the rib flanges for the holes. On the inboard rib and the outboard rib, if it hasn't been reversed, drill the bottom flanges too. These are accessible with the tank skin on. Some people reverse the outboard rib to gain a bit more fuel capacity, and if you're doing that then its bottom flange isn't accessible, so don't drill it.

4. Draw a centerline on the baffle flanges for the eventual holes. Mark the spar flange and skins for the maximum inboard point that you can safely drill the baffle from the outside. Tape on tell-tale line extensions so you can find the centerlines after the skin's are on.

4. Hang the skin and position it using those 1? cleco tabs. At this point, the main skin will need to be on to provide location. Also the outboard skin, for the same reason. Tape the joint between the top tank skin and the top main skin in between clecos. Try to get about 12" or 16" of tape, total. This is to ensure that the tank skin can't shift laterally. Once the tank skin is in position, remove the outboard skin.

5. Attach a 2x2 batten partway forward on the top skin, a bit forward of the bottom-most rib flange holes. Clamp it to the inboard tank rib flange and the inboard-most outboard rib flange, which is accessible now.

14bhopk.jpg


6. Back-drill through the top rib flanges, one row at a time, clecoing as you go. Start with the aft-most holes and work forward. Move the batten one row forward and repeat until all but the top holes are drilled.

7. Using a block of wood to protect your hands, reach the leading edge from the bottom of the tank and pull it tight to the rib flanges, and drill the top holes. You?ll need to cleco every hole or two. It's a bit awkward but not too bad. I used a 12" drill bit for all this. At this point, all the holes in the top skin have been drilled and clecoed.

2elgq4z.jpg


8. Reapply the Howe Fittings and the straps and move the batten to the forward bottom of the leading edge, where it's almost flush with the very front, and tighten it down. This involves unclecoing the main skins so that the straps can pass around the spar. The baffle will deform under the strap load with the skin sliding aft a bit.

bguuzn.jpg


717235.jpg


9. Mark the bottom aft edge of the tank skin for the position of the bottom main skin?s forward edge. This isn't a trim line. It's only there to locate the rib flange hole positions. DON'T trim to this line!

10. Measure from there and lay out the hole positions in the bottom skin.

11. Unstrap the skin and, with it loose on the bottom but clecoed on the top, drill the forward-most holes that clear the batten. Just drill through the skin, not the ribs. These holes are probably the second or third aft of the very front-most holes.

12. Restrap the skin down with its batten and verify that it?s in position and that the leading edge is acceptable, and most importantly, that these new holes line up with the rib flanges. How tight? My straps were scary tight.

13. Drill through these holes, through the rib flanges, and cleco. Back drill through the exposed end rib flanges at this position.

14. Working aft, one row at a time, drill and cleco the skin.

15. Remove the straps and the Howe Fittings. The baffle will relax and the tank skin, at the bottom, will shift forward just a bit.

16. Using the centerline extensions you put on for the baffles in step #4, draw lines on the skin for those holes. Locate the holes, making certain that you don't go so far inboard that the spar is in danger.

17. Drill and cleco the skin to baffle holes.

That's as far as I've gotten so far. Both tank leading edges are acceptable and I'm going to do the outboard leading edges next. I haven't removed the tank skins - warning - there's a huge amount of tension on the skins so strap it down for that.

Dave
 
Outboard Skins Too!

Just a quick note to say that the outboard skins are now drilled and clecoed too. These didn't have an edge that naturally went to the main skin line, so I had to locate the edges and trim them, not an issue.

Having the W-324 joint strips in place definitely helped.

Dave
 
Back
Top