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Landing, 3 Point Versus Wheel

R

RFazio

Well Known Member
I now have 16 hours on my 6. It's flying great and the only problem I'm having is landing. I never had a problem landing anything. I've flown a number of different aircraft including ultralights and hang gliders. I always landed tail draggers 3 point and always greased them on. My 6 is really pi$$ing me off. I keep on getting little bounces and I think I know whats happing now. I figured I get the opinoin of some more experienced RV pilots. Last night was very calm, the wind was right down the runway. I would slow her down and flair 1 foot off the runway. With full flaps I'm floating down the runway totally in control. As she slows I am pulling back slowly more and more on the stick and all of a sudden the bottom drops out and she bounces. It happens very fast. If I'm a little higher and I have time to catch it I end up over controling it and then bouncing. I just seems that she stops flying very fast at that point and its just too quick to gracefully land. If I'm and inch off the ground I'm ok but any higher and I get a bounce. My RV friends are all telling me to wheel land it. I have tried a few and I can get her on without bouncing, though still not as gracefull as I would like. I need more experience with wheel landings. Any tips? Is wheel landing just the way RVs like to land? Am I loosing my touch?
 
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I was checked out in a RV-6 before flying my 7 (in the TD configuration) and thought the 6 was the worst landing airplane I ever flew. (later I learned one problem that day was the tail wheel steering was broken - but beyond that the airplane seemed very unstable near the runway at minimum speed)

It seems the 6 and the 7 are rigged such that in a full stall landing (3 pointer) the tail wheel touches down before the mains so it is a little pogo act with full aft stick until everything quits flying. It's not unsafe, just uncomfortable and a light year from a smooth squeaker. That's why guys recommend wheel landings. They don't like ending a flight with the pogo dance.

I like squeakers. Getting such a landing with the TD configuration is a challenge. Experienced pilots do it all the time but I don't think it is possible fully stalled, the tail wheel may squeak on but the mains will plop on. With a wheel landing, there is more control and the landing can be finessed into a squeaker. The problem I have with that technique is runway needed to do it well. A wheel landing is way above stall speed and that equates to more runway needed to do it well. If you've got 3000+ feet to play with, all is well. But if it is 2200' over trees, you do not have that option, it must be a minimum speed approach and landing, and that means a full stall landing. It is also why a very experienced RV-4 friend will not land on this runway.

Also, much of landing technique is in what one is accustomed to. If the situation is outside the usual envelope, one does not feel comfortable and that's good. Smart pilots know the envelope they have for themselves and respect it.

With regard to your frustration, if you've got the runway, work on the wheel landings and get it down to squeakers. That will make you feel better and then you can go back and work on the pogo landings.
 
I can't really answer, but it sounds a little like the experience I had in my 8. I was simply getting a few degrees too nose high, so when I stopped easing that stick back a little sooner, it began to work out fine.

The 8 does love to wheel land, but I can usually do either one, but get that nose a few degrees high, and I get a bounce, due in part to the tailwheel touching first followed by -- the things stops flying at that higher slightly angle of attack. Guess its just a bad attitude thing!

Only a suggestion--may not apply at all
 
David-aviator said:
I like squeakers. Getting such a landing with the TD configuration is a challenge. Experienced pilots do it all the time but I don't think it is possible fully stalled, the tail wheel may squeak on but the mains will plop on. With a wheel landing, there is more control and the landing can be finessed into a squeaker. The problem I have with that technique is runway needed to do it well. A wheel landing is way above stall speed and that equates to more runway needed to do it well. If you've got 3000+ feet to play with, all is well. But if it is 2200' over trees, you do not have that option, it must be a minimum speed approach and landing, and that means a full stall landing. It is also why a very experienced RV-4 friend will not land on this runway.
Click to expand...

My RV-6 routinely lands on the main wheels on grass runways less than 2000' long. I have found a wheel landing with the tail slightly below level attitude and with full flaps can be made in about the same distance as a three pointer. These "tail low" wheel landings are more consistent for me than a three pointer. Using full flaps lowers the nose and makes it easy to stick the mains once they touch. However, a steep approach over trees is definitely a challenge. :)

One reason I am able to get short wheel landings is the religious use of an angle of attack indicator. Watching the LRI (still getting accustomed to the AOA indicator in the Dynon) I come over the fence at an AOA that I know is safe but still slow enough for short field landings. I would be reluctant to squeeze max landing performance out of my plane without a well calibrated AOA indicator.
 
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Van's Article

Van himself did a good article, or series of articles in the RViator a few years ago. I'll see if I can find it for reference - it might be on the company web page too. It was all about nailing the approach if I remember which backs up the "Control he AoA" argument.
Jim Sharkey
 
For me the smoothness of the three-pointer seems to be all about how good my perception is, that day, of how far above the runway I am. If I go to the three point attitude at 6 or 8 inches above the runway the results will be as you indicated, sort of a thumper. For some reason this goes in streaks. Sometimes I have a real good feeling that I am an inch or two high. When that happens, you get greasers.

There seems to be some terminology confusion, still. Three point and full stall are not necessarily synonymous. Normally, in an RV, if you do a full stall landing, it is ugly, because, yes indeed, the mains will be high in the air when the tailwheel touches.

And just to confirm that it takes all kinds, I do notably more consistent three-pointers than wheelies, although I rarely do wheelies and that may be the reason.
 
n5lp said:
There seems to be some terminology confusion, still. Three point and full stall are not necessarily synonymous. Normally, in an RV, if you do a full stall landing, it is ugly, because, yes indeed, the mains will be high in the air when the tailwheel touches.
Click to expand...

Larry makes a very good point here. To 3-point an RV, the correct term is "attitude" landing, not "full stall." Get used the visuals of a 3-point attitude, flare to that point and hold it until it settles.
 
Use a little less flap?

I find that full flaps on my 6 is only necessary if I want an aggressive, plop it on and stick it, short, short, landing. The timing of that needs to be pretty solid or you will bounce, but it is a non event if you keep the stick back.
I now use a touch up from full flaps and have no issues making decent three points and still land and roll out in less than 1000'.
I pull the throttle to idle on final most of the time. That is how I was taught. If you carry a little power, you might three point better, but you risk floating more.
The shorter wing of the 6 does feel differently than the 7 I have flown and I would say it is a little touchier near the ground. Still, the easiest airplane I have ever landed.
 
Judicious use of power will check your decent rate thus making contact smooth. At altitude fly a landing configuration, check your decent rate and add the appropriate power for the weight. Don't forget the use of power as these little planes decend well at landing speeds. Your landing airspeed will dictate whether you wheel land or 3 point. An old tailwheel pilot advises the best wheel or 3 point, Take what ever comes first.
 
Not sure if I qualify to give advice since I'm not flying an RV yet. But I do fly a kitfox(tailwheel) and that thing is very touchy and I've been told and I agree, it is tough to land. I fly quit a bit, usually every day. I do spot landings and others to keep from getting bored. Now I've done every thing on landings and have tried different things to help out the landing. I find that if you have too much prop, meaning a fixed prop on landing you will float almost forever. I guess my question now would be, what prop do you have?

Next if the idle is too high can cause floating, which is what I think you are having. If the prop is set too high, coarse, or fixed pitch than you have more fan blowing, if the idle is set too high, even with a cs prop you can float.

My solution is to lower the idle as far down as you can, doesn't mean you run on the ground at this setting, just means you have a tool in your bag that allows you to pop off the power to get er down, so to speak. With a flat prop and low idle you can really slow yourself down quick and than you raise the idle back up on that last entry to the numbers, than if I can't get the plane down on the runway, I take and pull off the power to get it to sink on the runway, just as it touches, I put the throttle where normal idle is. I have the Rotax engine and this really works sweet for me. I have my Rotax set at 600rpm, it's suppose to be set at 1800. I always run it at 1800, and never let it run rough. Odd thing, in the air when the aircraft is flying, I can pull all the way off and it's nice and smooth, but I sure slow down. way cool.

On wheel landings, if I make a perfect wheel touch down, but the idle is up or at normal, I find it very hard to lower the tail, it goes and goes with the tail up. If I pull the idle all the way off, than the tail comes down, as it makes contact, than I raise the idle back up.

Now, I don't know your configuration, but I would check your idle and make sure it is down, not running even a little to fast. If possible, lower the idle to the lowest before quiting. Not sure if you even want to have that option. But I love it. Not sure how low you can go with a lyc, I'm sure I'll find out in the future, because I love low rpm settings.

Now, when I did my transision training, I know in a 6A, but, I found the only way to land it was to fly it right to the runway, as soon as it touched on the mains, and the nose was already up off the runway, I pulled all power off, which wasn't very much and it stayed down.

Make sure your approach speeds are correct. On my fox, the stall is about 40, lower in ground effect, about 38. If I'm doing a wheel landing, I like 60mph just before the runway, maybe 200ft out. If I'm doing a 3point, I want 50mph at 200ft. out.

Have you flown with an instructor, preferably somebody with rv experience? Might concider doing that. That way someone can watch you and evaluate what is going on.
 
What Alex Said

I thought Alex explained it very well in my training in December. He stated that the RV-6 has much more elevator control than typical GA airplanes and therefore you can over rotate on flair. This will cause the tail wheel to hit first and then the mains to come down with a thud and bounce. He teaches to only flair to the same attitude as you have on the ground, i.e. when the hump in the cowl is at the horizon, and then "Hold It". The RV will then settle in on its own nicely, if you are not too high.

In practice it seems to work with this low time tailwheel pilot. My problem is getting a consistant distance above the ground during the flair. It's hard to work on landings when I am still breaking in the engine and it's not recommened to do a lot of touch and goes.
 
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Landing

I have a fixed pitch prop, a cruise prop. My idle is low, 650 rpm. I'm landing at Spadaro's airport, 1N2 which is 2200' by 22'. I fly from base on at 80 mph.
I stop usually by the halfway point or so. I don't think I'm floating too long down the runway. I'm going to get myself used to wheel landings, but I think JonJay has a point. Full flaps may be my problem. I think I'm also going to try 3/4 flaps or so and see how that affects that last couple of seconds before touch down. Flaps is the one think most planes I've flown in the past did not have. Thanks for all the suggestions guys.
 
Another consideration....

....is that no one can consistently do squeaker landings, whether three point or wheel landings. A little bounce here and there is the nature of flying, homebuilts or 777's...it's gonna happen. To what degree is what matters....if the airplane is re-usable you're good to go. Guys, I do 12-14 landings a day in my Air Tractor and sometimes I feel like I need to go back and get some dual:D, even with thousands of hours in the airplane.

Then again, some guys have a more natural feel for flying than others...just do the best you can and don't overthink this. When you're hot, you're hot and when you're not, you're not.

Have fun,
 
AOA vs. Bounce

The previous poster had it correct. Both the RV-4 and 6 (more so the -4 due to the greater distance between the wing center of pressure and the horizontal stab center of pressure) have tremendous elevator authority. So it's going to be very difficult to do a "full stall" three point because even if the wing is stalled, you'll be able to make dramatic changes in your AOA if you let the tail drop. Even if the tail drops just a few inches, it's possible to un-stall the wing, and you're back in the air. So you're not really bouncing--you're increasing the AOA to the point where they airplane starts climbing.

Try it up at altitude. When you feel the initial buffet, how much forward pressure do you need to apply before the buffet stops. Not much.

Let's say you when you touch down you do let the tail drop a bit and the nose comes back up (which is the natural reaction if the mains touch down first). The truly dangerous thing is to chase this into a POI. That's what ground loops are made of.

A better approach is to "fly" the aircraft into the three point the same way you would "fly" it into a wheel landing. Carry a little bit of power and adjust your flare to ease the airplane into a three point attitude as you're arresting your descent rate. If you do it right, you'll arrive at the three point attitude just as you decrease your VVI to just a few inches per second and just as you arrive within a foot of the runway. Hold that until touchdown and you got it.

A more mechanical approach is to get the airplane into ground effect, set the three point attitude, and slowly reduce the throttle to idle. You should touch down on all three as your energy bleeds off. If you bounce after touching down on all three, that's a real bounce as a result of slight high VVI. And that's OK (if not the most elegant). But be careful. If you're wing-low for a cross wind, it may not work out. And if you're not quite in a three point attitude, your mains could touch down first, the tail could drop, and there's your POI. If you see the nose coming back up, in with the power and go around.

And just like the wheel landing, it's imperative that you touch down with the longitudinal access parallel to the runway centerline. Touching down in a crab is almost (but not quite) as dangerous as a POI.

But for me, I just prefer to do a wheel landing almost every time. It gives you better visibility, better crosswind control, and when done properly it takes no more distance than a typical three pointer.

Plus it's more fun.

-Martin, CFI.
402BD
 
great advice coming out here. I agree, the 6 has a lot of elevator authority. Must have been why the first few landings I ballooned up on a flair. I feel that flying the aircraft to touch down either in wheel land or 3 point is real important in the 6. After the wheels touch, pull all power off if it isn't there already. Than slowely pull back on the stick as airspeed decreases. Good luck and have fun learning.
 
One piece of advice that has helped me is to PAUSE after turning onto the runway for takeoff, then look down the runway and try to memorize this sight-picture. See where the end of the runway is, in relation to the cowl. This will be your attitude as you try to set it up for a 3-point.
Godd luck.

Bill Newkirk
RV-3
 
For what its worth it might help to think of the RV a little bit like a Pitts, short Fat wings. Fly it down to the runway.. Don't flare to high, when those wings quit flying they quit:) My worst landings have been when I over rotate in the flare ballon up and drop it in from a foot up.
I found that by just flying it down to the runway and just leveling off and then let it settle as you hold the flight attitude you have it works out well...but try that from 3ft up and you will bounce big time(ask how I know):D
All the Best
 
I had training in a -6 as well. I could not land it well while holding the grip of the stick. I had to put my hand in my lap then just use 2 fingers about half way up the stick to land. (instructor's suggestion, not mine)

From what you described I second what JonJay said about flaps. Half flaps at most for me on any field now.

FWIW... I wheel land on pavement and 3 point on grass.
 
Wheel landings

Between 2 different RV-6's, I've logged over 500 landings, so I suppose I'm qualified to comment here.

I always do wheel landings. I enter the flare at 65-70mph, and 2-3 feet off the ground, max. Just before the flare I'm at 75-80mph (mom and kids, all that). In the flare, throttle is now at idle, and slight wag of wings (aileron inputs) as/if necessary to dump lift. If you're fast, have a high sink rate (>300 fpm), don't close the throttle, the airplane will get even, i.e. bounce, not want to stop flying. If you bounce, reset the landing atttitude, and/or go around. With mains on, do not lower the tailwheel until the wing will no longer fly with an increase in AOA, i.e. be below stall speed. Be the rudder. The RV-6 with it's relatively large rudder is VERY responsive to crosswind gusts. I always land full flaps. But, in a really strong crosswind, besides a different runway/airport, half or no flaps is a consideration.

The main reason I like wheel landings over 3 point goes to crosswinds and consistency. You do NOT want to do a 3 pt crosswind landing in an RV. I doubt if touching down 5mph slower affects landing distance by any measurable amount, and I get in/out 2k' grass strips/pavement with ease. You do need to shoot for a 35' wheel height across the threshhold, on speed, sink rate, and reasonable glide slope (I fly steeper in SE airplanes than 3 degrees).

Does the RV-6 land better/worse than other RV models? Doubt it, but don't know. The operating weight CG will definitely affect the control response in the pitch axis, so watch out for this. As the RV-6 burns fuel, the CG goes aft.

I think you find a technique/configuration that works well and stick to it. I do the same thing at work with the 737-800. As someone aptly pointed out, not all landings will be greasers no matter what you do. Of course the pax never comment on the greasers, just the ones that wake them up.
 
wv4i said:
You do NOT want to do a 3 pt crosswind landing in an RV.
Click to expand...

I do 'em all the time, so I'm not sure why you *wouldn't* want to do 'em.

But I agree with this poster's sentiment that you pick a technique that works for you and then refine that technique.
 
Pogo stick mode

3 pt in crosswind, especiallly gusty crosswind, good chance of getting in the pogo stick mode as someone called it, about the tail wheel.
 
Landings

With 500 hours in the RV4 I found wheel landings to be more precise. The P 51 for example was wheel landed and the P 47 was 3 pointed. The 4 and I am sure the 6 or 7 can be full stalled. I now fly a Starduster 2 an I 3 point it. I really feels it depends on the airplane not the pilot which works best. Roger Moore
 
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wv4i said:
You do NOT want to do a 3 pt crosswind landing in an RV.
Click to expand...

RVs 3-point perfectly well in a crosswind (like most any other tailwheel airplane), it just a depends on the pilot and their preference. RVs don't have any unusual characteristics that bias one technique over the other. Do what's safe and do what you're safe doing.

Rick Durden of AVweb wrote a great column on this neverending debate:

http://www.avweb.com/news/pilotlounge/182707-1.html
 
What was I thinking?

I'm getting reminded why I seldom participate in online forums any more.

We are talking about crosswind landings here in the RV6. See the thread title.

Is a prior poster advocating touching down in a crab, 3pt, in a RV6? Otherwise, it's not a 3 pt landing. A typical RV6 landing in a crosswind is upwind main, downwind main, tail wheel, in that order, a wheel landing. To watch it done any other way, in a crosswind, is exciting to watch, to say the least.

To get in a situation where one main and the tailwheel are only on the ground in a crosswind landing, by design, is a recipe for a rodeo ride.

The aerodynamics are beyond the scope of this thread, at least beyond my available keyboard time.

Good luck.
 
Anecdotal evidence.

The article mentioned below is very thorough in discussing pros/cons of 3point vs. wheelers (as I call them).

When I was getting my insurance training for my 7, I had 100+ hours TW time and had done maybe 12 wheelers.

My instructor mandated that I learn to wheel land the 7 first, then we did three pointers. It was disconcerting the number of times I bounced his airplane and went around. But, when I finally "got it", I loved wheel landings. We did a few three pointers and they were pretty much non-events after 20+ wheelers.

So, now I wheel it on. It's my preference. I feel "more in control". I like the view. It's easier to initiate a go-around (and I have done many so far!). I'm consistently getting down in 1000-1200' on my neighbors grass strip. Yesterday, I had my first tangle with nasty crosswinds. Had to do one go-around, then pinned it on and got stopped in about 1000' (still long, but I'm learning).

I wont' make a statement about which is best, only that wheelers seem to work better for me.

YMMV!
 
wv4i said:
To get in a situation where one main and the tailwheel are only on the ground in a crosswind landing, by design, is a recipe for a rodeo ride.
Click to expand...

What you describe is actually a textbook "3-point" crosswind landing. OK, so it's actually a 2-point, but it's close enough in principal compared to the wheel landing to use the term. The point is that a main gear and tailwheel touch simultaneously, as in the case with the normal 3-pointer. It's perfectly stable to be on one main gear and tailwheel in a crosswind and, unless you drop it in, there's no bouncing, since the airplane cannot change attitude. Please don't think I'm trying to convert you, since wheelies also work perfectly well. With the exception of the RV-8, I found the RV-6 to behave the same as the other tailwheel RVs, so I don't feel this discussion is necessarily specific to the RV-6...and RV-6 is not specifically mentioned in any of the thread titles. In over 1000 RV-3 landings, I've done many uneventful crosswind "3-pointers". I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that there's a perfectly suitable alternative to wheel landing in a crosswind.
 
BIFOCALS

For those of us that wear bifocals to read our panels, we don't need them to land. With bifocals on, when we slow down and our AOA increases, at least for me, I start looking through my magnafiers. This distorts depth perception and makes for more difficult landings. I always remove my glasses on base or final, and this makes landing a breeze.

Steve Barnes, The Builders Coach
 
sandifer said:
What you describe is actually a textbook "3-point" crosswind landing. OK, so it's actually a 2-point, but it's close enough in principal compared to the wheel landing to use the term. The point is that a main gear and tailwheel touch simultaneously, as in the case with the normal 3-pointer. It's perfectly stable to be on one main gear and tailwheel in a crosswind and, unless you drop it in, there's no bouncing, since the airplane cannot change attitude. Please don't think I'm trying to convert you, since wheelies also work perfectly well. With the exception of the RV-8, I found the RV-6 to behave the same as the other tailwheel RVs, so I don't feel this discussion is necessarily specific to the RV-6...and RV-6 is not specifically mentioned in any of the thread titles. In over 1000 RV-3 landings, I've done many uneventful crosswind "3-pointers". I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that there's a perfectly suitable alternative to wheel landing in a crosswind.
Click to expand...

I would like to know what you are calling a weelie. Is it running on one wheel, left or right. If so, I do these for practice all the time, easier in the kitfox because I can see the wheel and the center line. Yup, I use the center line. I can run it 9000ft on center line. I recomend a person practice these for learning to do a weelie. A nice stiff cross wind with a weelie will grow hair on your chest or at least more. Oh and to land flat and than pick up a wheel is also a good one without going off center line.
 
Starduster

Roger Moore said:
With 500 hours in the RV4 I found wheel landings to be more precise. The P 51 for example was wheel landed and the P 47 was 3 pointed. The 4 and I am sure the 6 or 7 can be full stalled. I now fly a Starduster 2 an I 3 point it. I really feels it depends on the airplane not the pilot which works best. Roger Moore
Click to expand...

hi Roger, noticed you are flying a Duster, I sold my Too to finish my RV6 had flown it for 20 yrs (had an IO540 and CS) be happy to talk planes with you
Peter
 
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