Van's Air Force
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Keep me in your thoughts..
- Thread starter miyu1975
- Start date
Geico266
Well Known Member
It is really not that bad.
Make sure you rough up and clean the ares to be sealed.
Get some syringes from a farm store and use them as a dispensor. Works like a charm.
Use masking tape to protect areas you don't want proseal on.
As soon as you get proseal on your gloves change them.
Get lots of pop cycle sticks in a variety of sizes and use a belt sander to design "special" ones for spacfic tasks.
On the other hand don't listen to me, I've only built an RV-12 fuel tank!
(But I've repaired several others. )
Good luck! Keep us posted.
Make sure you rough up and clean the ares to be sealed.
Get some syringes from a farm store and use them as a dispensor. Works like a charm.
Use masking tape to protect areas you don't want proseal on.
As soon as you get proseal on your gloves change them.
Get lots of pop cycle sticks in a variety of sizes and use a belt sander to design "special" ones for spacfic tasks.
On the other hand don't listen to me, I've only built an RV-12 fuel tank!
(But I've repaired several others. )Good luck! Keep us posted.
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It's not that bad.
The stories are worse than the job really is. You only hear about the bad jobs and no one talks about the good ones.
Yes it's messy, but cleans up. Only advice I can give you is to wear clothes that you don't mind donating to the local land fill when you are done.
The stories are worse than the job really is. You only hear about the bad jobs and no one talks about the good ones.
Yes it's messy, but cleans up. Only advice I can give you is to wear clothes that you don't mind donating to the local land fill when you are done.
Other necessities..
Beside the aforementioned gloves, junk clothes, popsicle sticks,and respirator.. there is always clean-up. MEK or toluene are the usual suspects. One thing that I prefer though is 99% pure isopropyl alcohol. Doesn't clean as fast as the other two but still gets the job done on your skin while being marginally less hazardous to your long term health.
Beside the aforementioned gloves, junk clothes, popsicle sticks,and respirator.. there is always clean-up. MEK or toluene are the usual suspects. One thing that I prefer though is 99% pure isopropyl alcohol. Doesn't clean as fast as the other two but still gets the job done on your skin while being marginally less hazardous to your long term health.
Tumper
Well Known Member
Cleaners
My first run at ProSeal was on the rudder of my RV-9. Roughed the surface up and cleaned it with paint thinner. I used a postage meter scale to weigh out the two products and I used a heavy duty zip lock bag with a small piece cut out of the corner to apply the stuff (like cake decoration).
The process went great, however when I went back two weeks later, there was no bond at all. I called Van?s and they said it was fine to not have the ProSeal bond; however I went to a lot of trouble for nothing.
Van said I shouldn?t have used paint thinner as a cleaning agent because it leaves a residue. They said use xylene. So I got some xylene from my local aircraft supply store (Home Depot) and used it on the elevator last weekend. So for I think it has worked.
Others may want to comment on what to clean with, but from my limited experience paint thinner is a definite NO.
My first run at ProSeal was on the rudder of my RV-9. Roughed the surface up and cleaned it with paint thinner. I used a postage meter scale to weigh out the two products and I used a heavy duty zip lock bag with a small piece cut out of the corner to apply the stuff (like cake decoration).
The process went great, however when I went back two weeks later, there was no bond at all. I called Van?s and they said it was fine to not have the ProSeal bond; however I went to a lot of trouble for nothing.
Van said I shouldn?t have used paint thinner as a cleaning agent because it leaves a residue. They said use xylene. So I got some xylene from my local aircraft supply store (Home Depot) and used it on the elevator last weekend. So for I think it has worked.
Others may want to comment on what to clean with, but from my limited experience paint thinner is a definite NO.
mototopo
Well Known Member
I completed my first and leak-free fuel tank a couple of weeks ago. I tested it using the ballonn method and, after 5 days, the balloon was still inflated as the first moment.
I was scared by some posts on this forum about leaks, working with proseal and so on.. but what I can say, based on my own experience, is that I just followed the instructions and I had no particular issue. Completing a leak-free fuel tank it's not so hard as it sounds. Just take your time.. plan ahead and don't be shy with proseal! It doesn't bite!!
I was scared by some posts on this forum about leaks, working with proseal and so on.. but what I can say, based on my own experience, is that I just followed the instructions and I had no particular issue. Completing a leak-free fuel tank it's not so hard as it sounds. Just take your time.. plan ahead and don't be shy with proseal! It doesn't bite!!
txnbuilder
Active Member
What I've learned so far...
I have been working on the tanks for a couple of weeks. Here are some things I've learned. Of course, I am not finished, so it's up to you how much to believe from the guy who hasn't pressure tested his tanks yet...
1 - Get TWO quart kits of Proseal. Vans says one should be enough, but as another local builder told me "After building many many sets of tanks, Vans knows *exactly* where to put it -- you and I don't ". There is no way I could have done everything with a single quart kit.
2 ? Instead of popsicle sticks, I cut a piece of 1/8? thick lexan into well..popsicle stick-looking strips. It won?t break, but it is nice and flexible so it won?t scratch anything. It was also very easy to shape with my grinder. I also happened to have lexan laying around, but not popsicle sticks?
3 ? Get an inspection mirror. I got mine for something like $5 at aircraft spruce. VERY useful for inspecting rivet heads that don?t look quite right. After looking at them with the mirror, most of these were OK but the proseal oozing around them made them look distorted.
4 ? While you?re shopping for your mirror, get some AN470AD6 rivets to plug the tooling holes on the outer ribs. The holes are just the right size for these rivets. You can also make a little plate and attach it to the rib with smaller AN470AD4 or even AN426AD3 rivets, but if you?re already putting in a mail order, might as well spend an extra $3 and save yourself an hour of fabricating little plates, drilling holes, and riveting. Oh yeah, the $3 will buy you ? lbs of rivets, which is about 96 more rivets than you?ll need.
5 ? While you?re shopping for your mirror and AN470AD6 rivets, might as well also get some fuel lube (EZ Turn Lubricant)
6 ? If possible, get a helper for the riveting. When the tank is in the cradle, it was very hard to hold the gun to the rivets near the leading edge and the bucking bar on the inside. You *can* do it yourself, but it is so much easier to have one person shooting and another bucking.
7. MEK works very well at cleaning proseal. Unfortunately, it also works very well at melting everything else, including the lexan sticks, your gloves, your fingers, your EYES, your BRAIN, etc. So, wear a respirator and safety glasses *any time* the can of MEK is open.
8. I riveted all the ribs except for the inboard rib, and then put in the vent line. I think this worked out well.
I followed the George Orndorff philosophy on tank sealing ? if you can say ?This looks like there is absolutely no way this will leak, it probably won?t, but if you look at the tank and say ?it looks OK, probably won?t leak?..it probably will ?? We?ll see how this turns out when I put in the baffle plate and pressure test them?
Luis
I have been working on the tanks for a couple of weeks. Here are some things I've learned. Of course, I am not finished, so it's up to you how much to believe from the guy who hasn't pressure tested his tanks yet...
1 - Get TWO quart kits of Proseal. Vans says one should be enough, but as another local builder told me "After building many many sets of tanks, Vans knows *exactly* where to put it -- you and I don't
". There is no way I could have done everything with a single quart kit. 2 ? Instead of popsicle sticks, I cut a piece of 1/8? thick lexan into well..popsicle stick-looking strips. It won?t break, but it is nice and flexible so it won?t scratch anything. It was also very easy to shape with my grinder. I also happened to have lexan laying around, but not popsicle sticks?
3 ? Get an inspection mirror. I got mine for something like $5 at aircraft spruce. VERY useful for inspecting rivet heads that don?t look quite right. After looking at them with the mirror, most of these were OK but the proseal oozing around them made them look distorted.
4 ? While you?re shopping for your mirror, get some AN470AD6 rivets to plug the tooling holes on the outer ribs. The holes are just the right size for these rivets. You can also make a little plate and attach it to the rib with smaller AN470AD4 or even AN426AD3 rivets, but if you?re already putting in a mail order, might as well spend an extra $3 and save yourself an hour of fabricating little plates, drilling holes, and riveting. Oh yeah, the $3 will buy you ? lbs of rivets, which is about 96 more rivets than you?ll need.
5 ? While you?re shopping for your mirror and AN470AD6 rivets, might as well also get some fuel lube (EZ Turn Lubricant)
6 ? If possible, get a helper for the riveting. When the tank is in the cradle, it was very hard to hold the gun to the rivets near the leading edge and the bucking bar on the inside. You *can* do it yourself, but it is so much easier to have one person shooting and another bucking.
7. MEK works very well at cleaning proseal. Unfortunately, it also works very well at melting everything else, including the lexan sticks, your gloves, your fingers, your EYES, your BRAIN, etc. So, wear a respirator and safety glasses *any time* the can of MEK is open.
8. I riveted all the ribs except for the inboard rib, and then put in the vent line. I think this worked out well.
I followed the George Orndorff philosophy on tank sealing ? if you can say ?This looks like there is absolutely no way this will leak, it probably won?t, but if you look at the tank and say ?it looks OK, probably won?t leak?..it probably will ?? We?ll see how this turns out when I put in the baffle plate and pressure test them?
Luis
rv9aviator
Well Known Member
All great advice and I agree it isn't as bad as you think. One thing I didn't see mentioned was paper towels for cleanup. Get you a roll of those blue paper shop towels and cut them up in 2 inch squares. You will need to wipe off the rivet set and bucking bar frequently to keep things from sliding around while setting rivets. Have lots of nitrile or latex gloves and change them often. The little paper squares really helps keep things clean and don't waste as many towels. Good luck!
dhall_polo
Well Known Member
still thinking about a 540?
Maybe you need to stretch that tank out!
I'll pile some a couple more comments...
- surface prep is everything.
- the tank actually takes a few days to completely cure. let the tank cure on your wing.
Maybe you need to stretch that tank out!
I'll pile some a couple more comments...
- surface prep is everything.
- the tank actually takes a few days to completely cure. let the tank cure on your wing.
I'm in the same boat as you are now. I finished up the wings and left the tanks for last. Just got the fuselage a month ago and started on the bulkheads. After 3 weeks of working on that, I realized the tanks have to eventually get done so I put the fuse parts away and dove into the mess.
All I can muster up is enough energy to do one rib at a time. I then need a beer and a good nights sleep. I'm using MEK to clean and fumes do get bad but if you only do one at a time it's not that bad. Like the other posts, I'm using 2 to 3 times the sealant needed. I do not want this thing to leak.
I couldn't find popsicle sticks so I'm using plastic knives. Just file the blades smooth first. Also plastic plates to mix it up on and the great little postage scale I paid $10 for. Unbelievable how acurate this little thing is. Knives are not great cause they break but I'm getting by. I think this whole process is a pain in the you know what, but not much you can do about it....... Have fun. Remember, once you get that first tank done. You have to do it all over again....
While we are on the subject of tanks, I have a question. On the first tank I forgot to put the little clip on the fuel tank flange to hold the vent line. I was going to drill out a rivet and put one on but after looking at how stiff the line is and how short of run it is between ribs, is it really necessary? Is there a specific reason you really need it? I figured I would just proseal the last grommet that the lines comes out of to keep the vibration to a minimum and call it good. Any ideas?
All I can muster up is enough energy to do one rib at a time. I then need a beer and a good nights sleep. I'm using MEK to clean and fumes do get bad but if you only do one at a time it's not that bad. Like the other posts, I'm using 2 to 3 times the sealant needed. I do not want this thing to leak.
I couldn't find popsicle sticks so I'm using plastic knives. Just file the blades smooth first. Also plastic plates to mix it up on and the great little postage scale I paid $10 for. Unbelievable how acurate this little thing is. Knives are not great cause they break but I'm getting by. I think this whole process is a pain in the you know what, but not much you can do about it....... Have fun. Remember, once you get that first tank done. You have to do it all over again....
While we are on the subject of tanks, I have a question. On the first tank I forgot to put the little clip on the fuel tank flange to hold the vent line. I was going to drill out a rivet and put one on but after looking at how stiff the line is and how short of run it is between ribs, is it really necessary? Is there a specific reason you really need it? I figured I would just proseal the last grommet that the lines comes out of to keep the vibration to a minimum and call it good. Any ideas?
Do it in 3 steps
like in the Ordnoff videos.
1. bottom stiffeners, fuel cap flange and fuel line fittings.
2. all ribs in the tank skin.
3. the back wall (baffle plate).
Tips
Clean and reuse the same clecos for every rib. Don't skimp on the proseal especially on the baffle wall-to-skin joint.
Steve
like in the Ordnoff videos.
1. bottom stiffeners, fuel cap flange and fuel line fittings.
2. all ribs in the tank skin.
3. the back wall (baffle plate).
Tips
Clean and reuse the same clecos for every rib. Don't skimp on the proseal especially on the baffle wall-to-skin joint.
Steve
Experienced help is really useful
Try to find someone who has built tanks before. Failing at that, at least find someone who knows what a bucking bar is.
If you can work when it is cool, you get longer working time.
I wouldn't be careless about chemical exposure, but I wouldn't get too concerned, either. We often worry about things we haven't encountered before, while accepting equally or more dangerous risks from things we encounter frequently. Here is what the MSDS' say about MEK and gasoline, respectively: "Inhalation: Causes irritation to the nose and throat. Concentrations above the TLV may cause headache, dizziness, nausea, shortness of breath, and vomiting. Higher concentrations may cause central nervous system depression and unconsciousness. " And for gasoline: "Excessive exposure may cause irritations to the nose, throat, lungs and respiratory tract. Central nervous system (brain) effects may include headache, dizziness, loss of balance and coordination, unconsciousness, coma, respiratory failure, and death." Kind of similar, aren't they? Oh, and here's another one: "Inhalation of high concentrations may cause central nervous system effects characterized by nausea, headache, dizziness, unconsciousness and coma. Causes respiratory tract irritation. May cause narcotic effects in high concentration. Vapors may cause dizziness or suffocation." That's ethyl alcohol, the alcohol that's in booze.
Working in the garage with the door open, neither I nor the other two who helped me experienced any symptoms at all. Yes, we wore gloves. So rather than a respirator, I would simply work in a well ventilated area and set up a fan to blow fresh air across the work area if I are concerned.
The job is really not too bad, just messy. Make sure you use lots of goop everywhere a leak could possible occur.
We set the tanks vertically on a low table rather than in the cradle, which made it easier to reach inside to buck the rivets.
Try to find someone who has built tanks before. Failing at that, at least find someone who knows what a bucking bar is.
If you can work when it is cool, you get longer working time.
I wouldn't be careless about chemical exposure, but I wouldn't get too concerned, either. We often worry about things we haven't encountered before, while accepting equally or more dangerous risks from things we encounter frequently. Here is what the MSDS' say about MEK and gasoline, respectively: "Inhalation: Causes irritation to the nose and throat. Concentrations above the TLV may cause headache, dizziness, nausea, shortness of breath, and vomiting. Higher concentrations may cause central nervous system depression and unconsciousness. " And for gasoline: "Excessive exposure may cause irritations to the nose, throat, lungs and respiratory tract. Central nervous system (brain) effects may include headache, dizziness, loss of balance and coordination, unconsciousness, coma, respiratory failure, and death." Kind of similar, aren't they? Oh, and here's another one: "Inhalation of high concentrations may cause central nervous system effects characterized by nausea, headache, dizziness, unconsciousness and coma. Causes respiratory tract irritation. May cause narcotic effects in high concentration. Vapors may cause dizziness or suffocation." That's ethyl alcohol, the alcohol that's in booze.
Working in the garage with the door open, neither I nor the other two who helped me experienced any symptoms at all. Yes, we wore gloves. So rather than a respirator, I would simply work in a well ventilated area and set up a fan to blow fresh air across the work area if I are concerned.
The job is really not too bad, just messy. Make sure you use lots of goop everywhere a leak could possible occur.
We set the tanks vertically on a low table rather than in the cradle, which made it easier to reach inside to buck the rivets.
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Have fun! I'll be putting the rear baffle on my right tank this weekend and then I'm through with the proseal mess. It's true - it's not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Oh yeah, if think you'll get a portion of your tank done in an hour or so, triple the time and add a fudge factor on top of that. The mess makes the project longer! Let us know how it goes. Maybe a couple of pics in your proseal gear.
Proseal
I listened to and heeded all I could read on Proseal. It is not that bad. I wore old clothes and two pair of nitrile gloves. I had two leaks at the very front of the nose ribs between two of the tabs. I had one on each end in the same spot.
I worked outside and used MEK to clean things up. When cleaning up, I kept an eye on the outer pair of gloves. MEK does break them down but it takes a little time. When I saw them breaking down, I changed them out with fresh gloves.
I was told by another RVer that my Proseal job was too neat. Don't be afraid to apply too much. You can always wipe away and possibly use it again.
I did the stifferners first. Then two ribs at a time till finished. Fuel sender plate and all other fittings. Leak test with water. Two days to dry tank. and reseal after. Retest for leaks. Rear baffle. Buffed out skin from Proseal cleanup, it leaves a light film. Done.
Dave
I listened to and heeded all I could read on Proseal. It is not that bad. I wore old clothes and two pair of nitrile gloves. I had two leaks at the very front of the nose ribs between two of the tabs. I had one on each end in the same spot.
I worked outside and used MEK to clean things up. When cleaning up, I kept an eye on the outer pair of gloves. MEK does break them down but it takes a little time. When I saw them breaking down, I changed them out with fresh gloves.
I was told by another RVer that my Proseal job was too neat. Don't be afraid to apply too much. You can always wipe away and possibly use it again.
I did the stifferners first. Then two ribs at a time till finished. Fuel sender plate and all other fittings. Leak test with water. Two days to dry tank. and reseal after. Retest for leaks. Rear baffle. Buffed out skin from Proseal cleanup, it leaves a light film. Done.
Dave
Geico266
Well Known Member
They call it the Black Death..But it really doesn't kill..you just wish it would..
Frank
It does seem to have a mind of it's own. It can jump 20 feet and get on the otherside of the shop!
So how did your weekend with proseal go?
Everyone has great, ACCURATE advice on this ProSeal stuff. I use it almost daily from installing windshields, fillet sealing panels, and aero sealing antenna installs. It isn't mandatory that you measure it out EXACTLY per the manual either. If your using a 2 part mix, i.e. one white and one black, the more black you add the faster it'll cure. Handy in cool weather to mix it a little "blacker". Yes its messy, yes if you get one tiny bit on your finger it WILL find a way to migrate to your hair, but scary, Nah. What type were you using? B1/2 or B2?
miyu1975
Well Known Member
Weekend was exhausting....put in over 10 hrs or so...would have been more but had to go shopping with my wife Sat and Sunday afternoon. It took me longer than expected but I was working on the Z brackets. I got all zbrackets drilled and the tanks on top. did itthe DanC way. Very time consuming, but it is all done. I also collected and bought materials suggested to begin the prosealing job...more to come with pics....thx again for all the suggestions.
