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Instrument Panel Help

MSUDesignTeam

I'm New Here
We're a group of four students completing a RV-7 for our graduation project and we were wondering if anyone had any advice on electronic components. What is required, what you would recommend, everything. We're having a hard time finding a list of what guages and instruments are needed, any help would be appreciated.
 
MSUDesignTeam said:
We're a group of four students completing a RV-7 for our graduation project and we were wondering if anyone had any advice on electronic components. What is required, what you would recommend, everything. We're having a hard time finding a list of what guages and instruments are needed, any help would be appreciated.

Get hooked up with your local EAA chapter and an EAA advisor. Get a good book on basic Avionics and Instrumentation. You need to understand the basic FAA requirements and the basic Instruments, Avionics, and other systems before you can even think about the products you will use let alone the design you want.
 
We're in michigan, there aren't any local EAA chapters. The plane we're building is being produced to sell, so it doesn't matter what we want, we want to build a plane that appeals to the broadest market.
 
MSUDesignTeam said:
We're a group of four students completing a RV-7 for our graduation project and we were wondering if anyone had any advice on electronic components. What is required, what you would recommend, everything. We're having a hard time finding a list of what guages and instruments are needed, any help would be appreciated.

Wow, seriously wide open question. The advise to get hooked up with a local EAA chapter is straight on.

You need to define exactly what the mission of the finished aircraft is going to be, or perhaps even more important, what the mission of your project is. Then work backwards.

Anyway, you have found the RIGHT PLACE to find some answers when you found VAF.

Good luck with your project.

Mike
 
our goal is to provide a working plane that will appeal to the largest market, considering things like pilot certifications. We have a 200 hp IO-360
 
Local to EAAer's A Bit Bigger Than Normal

Contact the nearby EAA chapters even though there isn't one in East Lansing. Looks like Jackson is very close, http://www.eaa304.com/

There are lots of chapters in MI. Use the EAA chaper site here.

And remember, lots of EAA members are happy to fly to you!

PS Go Illini :D
 
The Design Process....

Welcome guys - you're in a fun place in your school careers. Senior design was a long time ago for me, but I still remember it as probably the best time I had in school.

The advice given above to define your requirements is dead on - and your response to "build a plane that appeals to the broadest market" is not refined enough. This is a learning project for you, so you're going to have to do some digging. Really define your mission. No aircraft satisfies every need - in fact, they are all optimized for something. The RV's are particularly good at doing many things well, but even they are products of compromise. That, in fact, is probably the single most important lesson you can take from a design class - the need to make choices and decide on priorities. Unless I miss my guess, your professors will be much more impressed if you carefully define your requirements, and then show how your design meets them than if you try and make something that does a little bit of everything, but nothing well.

So my advice is:

1) define your mission (Aerobatics, cross-country, VFR, IFR, all-weather, sunny weather, range expectations, etc...)

2) Dig into the Federal Aviation Regulations (part 91 is a good start) to find out what equipment is REQUIRED to be in the airplane.

3) Pick up a couple of up to date flight instruction manuals relative to the kind of flying you expect the airplane to be used for, learn what kind of equipment is used for what.

4) Iterate on your requirements with the new knowledge you have obtained - figure out WHAT you need.

5) Start looking through web sites like this one to see what specific equipment can be used to satisfy those requirements.

A large part of my job is training new engineers in the aerospace business, so I know a little bit about the challenges you have ahead. There are lots of people that will be happy to help you understand the choices you have to make, but first, you've got to do your homework. Good luck, and don't be afraid to ask some specific questions.

Paul
 
It would help if you stated if your building it for IFR flying or VFR. What kind of cash do you have to spend? I can give you some ideas if I knew a little more.
There are some awesome EFIS panels that are inexpensive coupled to steam guages that will give bang for the buck.
An autopilot is advisable.
 
jeff beckley said:
It would help if you stated if your building it for IFR flying or VFR. What kind of cash do you have to spend? I can give you some ideas if I knew a little more.
There are some awesome EFIS panels that are inexpensive coupled to steam guages that will give bang for the buck.
An autopilot is advisable.

And don't forget a good 4 cylinder engine monitor. My preference is AFS2500.

Kent
 
MSUDesignTeam said:
We're a group of four students completing a RV-7 for our graduation project and we were wondering if anyone had any advice on electronic components. What is required, what you would recommend, everything. We're having a hard time finding a list of what guages and instruments are needed, any help would be appreciated.


If you are looking for suggestions, I'll start the list with.

Steam Gauges:
Air Speed Indicator
Altimeter
Compass
Turn Coordinator (rate of turn)

Electronic:
Artificial Horizon
Directional Gyro
Clock
2 -way Radio

-Jeff
 
Equipment Requirements

MSU Design Team:
Equipment requirements are spelled out in the Federal Aviation Regulations (FARs) that can be found in the Aeronautical Information Manual. FAR 91-24 addresses minimum equipment requirements for VFR as well as IFR. Specifically, see FAR 91.205, 207, 209 and 215. You need to be aware that these are minimums. For example, the FARs require approved position lights, anticollision light, power source and spare fuses for night flight. They do not however, require a landing light or cockpit lighting. Also, if you are looking for instrument layout on the panel, there is an SAE standard or recommeded procedure that addresses this. This might be important as many home builders tend to put things where they want them - better to lean toward "standards" if you're looking to build and sell. Finally, you need to be aware that many of the instruments and equipment installed in homebuilt aircraft do not meet standards for commercially built aircraft (you'll encounter terms like TSO, PMA, etc.). That doesn't mean they're not legal in an experimental, but in most cases, they still have to meet performance criteria. If any of you get a chance to travel in the area of Pontiac International, I'd be glad to show you examples of RV6, 7, 7A, and 9A. Most of us are clustered together in a single hangar row and I have access to all. One of the owners is a DAR and would likely conduct final inspection on anything you build. I can make arrangements for you to meet/contact him as well. You can contact me directly at:
[email protected]

Finally, I have some connection to MSU as one of my daughters is a recent grad of MSUCOM and is serving in the US Navy.
Good luck in your adventure.
Terry
 
Let buyer decide

You stated that the plane is being built to sell.
It's possible that you may attract a good market if you advertise "you choose the instruments". In all liklihood, the person buying the plane will be a pilot and familiar with RV aircraft and it could be very appealing to the buyer to get to choose the instruments he/she wants.

Maybe get the students & buyer together to plan the panel. It could be a great learning experience.

Good luck.

Sam
(builder, pilot & teacher)
 
that would be a great idea, but unfortunetly its not an option for us, the plane won't be sold until long after we complete the project and graduate. We're under a huge time constraint, we graduate in may. We're not sure what to expect as far as completion, the wings are done, the empennage is done, the fuselage is done to the point of starting the canopy. we have an engine already, but have to mount it yet. What would be an estimate on the hours it takes to mount the engine? We're trying to get a ballpark on how much we can expect to get done. We hope to at least have the aesthetics done for our design conference in may.
 
MSUDesignTeam said:
........What would be an estimate on the hours it takes to mount the engine? We're trying to get a ballpark on how much we can expect to get done........
Hey Guys,

You will probably discover that physically "hanging the engine" can be accomplished in a matter of minutes. But that is just the first of many steps towards completing the firewall forward portion of the project. What follows can be labor intensive work and must be dealt with. The firewall penetration points must be established and the controls hooked up. The exhaust system, baffling, oil cooler, alternator, airbox and dozens of other small details must be attended to. High on the list is trimming and fitting the cowling. In fact, I've had more than one builder tell me the cowling was a more difficult work process than the canopy....I tend to agree. Plan on devoting at least 100 hours or more on this phase of the project. I will further submit that 100 hours to complete the FWF is an optimistic target to shoot for and in all likelyhood be probably missed by a wide margin. Keep in mind, building an airplane is supposed to be fun and the man hours involved are certain to provide you guys with A LOT of fun!
 
MSU Design Team,

Please take Terry up on his offer for guidance at Pontiac. You will find more information there than you can digest in one visit. Also check out local eaa chapters, Lansing does not have one but Mason has a very active group just down the road from you.
http://www.eaa55.com/.
Also check eaa for other chapters near you at,
http://eaa.org/chapter/SearchResults.asp

Keith

Keith McIntyre
Sr Staff Engineer
Materials Science and Engineering
University of Michgan
734-763-7893
 
You can always check with EAA 1093 in Midland, they are not that far way and I'm sure someone there will be more than willing to help.

Another option is for you get in touch with the WMU's School of Aaviation. Don't worry, they won't give you too hard a time for going to MSU and I'm sure they will be more than willing to help out.

Other than that, I would follow the good advice given in this thread and check out intrument panel thread.
 
Richard L Bentley said:
Will not handle Iceing or hard thunder storm turblance, they are just too slippery..RB
Can you explain this statement? The icing part is pretty clear but what does slippery have to do with turbulence or ability to handle thunderstorms? Not too many commercial aircraft, slippery, experimental or not, can handle thunderstorms-that's why even slipppery jets steer clear. The implication here is that with a draggy airframe you could go putzing around in or near a thunderstorm or make sever turbulence more palatable. :confused:
 
We're very interested in an engine monitoring system and an EFID, what would you guys recommend with the most bang for our buck? Is it better to get two different systems and displays, or a combo unit?
 
we're mainly looking at the D-180 by Dynon, any personal experience with it? It seems like a great deal and offers the features we want. It wasn't clear, does it display power percentage.
 
MSUDesignTeam said:
We're very interested in an engine monitoring system and an EFID, what would you guys recommend with the most bang for our buck? Is it better to get two different systems and displays, or a combo unit?
You guys have asked a real loaded question here. You will get many replies and everyone stating how good looking each person's baby is, if you know what I'm saying.
IMHO, you don't need redundant engine instruments. Should the EMS go Tango Uniform and that big chunk of metal up front continues to make noise, most people will be able to continue to a safe landing. However, if the thing is purring along nice and steady and then all goes quiet with no warning, does the redundant EMS really tell you anything that you don't already know? Probably not.

MSUDesignTeam said:
we're mainly looking at the D-180 by Dynon, any personal experience with it? It seems like a great deal and offers the features we want. It wasn't clear, does it display power percentage.
Yes, the D180 is a great product and saves a lot of panel space.
I elected to go with a D100 EFIS and the D10 EMS in my -9. Scroll down to the bottom of my Panel Page and you will see a good example of the two units working in unison.

In addition, the D100 has the internal back up battery, which should be good for over two hours of operation, should the electrical system go out. Even if it does, I elected to install a minimum of backup steam gauges. Enough to get me safely back on the ground.

Remembers, if you go with the Dynon units, you sill need to purchase all the engine probes, and accessories. I suspect the probes are additional cost items on the other EMS units as well but I'm not sure.
 
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