IFR Formation Approach?

[Pat Hatch]

I wanted to throw this out there. Yesterday when returning from breakfast at Sebring in the RV-6 I encountered IFR weather at my destination, Vero Beach. We had taken off from Sebring as a formation of three RVs. I had filed an IFR flight plan before departing Sebring as the weather in Vero was IFR. I picked up my clearance in the air and we broke up the formation, the other two guys had to go elsewhere to wait out the weather. I'm just wondering what would happen if I had filed as a formation of three and proceded into Vero, shot the approach, etc. Anyone ever done this? I know we used to do it in the Air Force, but have never encountered the possibility in the GA world. It would have been interesting to try! The other two guys were experienced formation/instrument qualified pilots but neither aircraft was IFR capable. Possible?

 

[ERJDriver]

I'm going to go with no since aircraft weren't IFR equipped, gotta be equipped to be legal for the flight conditions

 

[BobTurner]

I'm going to go with no since aircraft weren't IFR equipped, gotta be equipped to be legal for the flight conditions

Yep. What would happen if you had to break formation while in the clouds?

 

[johnpaul44]

not sure about ifr but I landed up in sanford airport as a formation at night once, i dont think the tower knew what to do with us when we initially called. Both turned base to final and one of us slowed down while the other sped up. I felt comfortable the entire way except when short final as it was hard to pick out the other aircraft landing in front of me.

 

[Pat Hatch]

Makes perfect sense. But I guess my point is, what if all 3 aircraft were IFR capable? Is this even possible?

 

[rolivi]

Possible or not... If all three planes/pilots are IFR capable and current than get some pop up clearances and be done with it.

How often do you train for IMC Formation Flying?

 

[skylor]

Makes perfect sense. But I guess my point is, what if all 3 aircraft were IFR capable? Is this even possible?

You can file and fly IFR in formation. You can even do this with non-instrument pilots and aircraft as wingman IF the entire flight is conducted in VMC. However, to fly the flight in IMC all wingman and aircraft must be appropriately rated/equipped and current for flight in IMC.

Whether or not civilians flying formation in IMC is a smart thing to do is an entirely different discussion…

Skylor

 

[rockyfatcat]

I was wondering how you’d handle things in a formation if visibility dropped to zero/zero?

 

[RV8Squaz]

I wanted to throw this out there. Yesterday when returning from breakfast at Sebring in the RV-6 I encountered IFR weather at my destination, Vero Beach. We had taken off from Sebring as a formation of three RVs. I had filed an IFR flight plan before departing Sebring as the weather in Vero was IFR. I picked up my clearance in the air and we broke up the formation, the other two guys had to go elsewhere to wait out the weather. I'm just wondering what would happen if I had filed as a formation of three and proceded into Vero, shot the approach, etc. Anyone ever done this? I know we used to do it in the Air Force, but have never encountered the possibility in the GA world. It would have been interesting to try! The other two guys were experienced formation/instrument qualified pilots but neither aircraft was IFR capable. Possible?

I did this many years ago as a flight of two returning to KFFC in S. Atlanta metro area from Triple Tree. I was lead in my 8 and the other was in his 8A. We were both ex AF IP’s, IFR current and capable, and had flown formation many times together.

This was back before I had a capable smart phone, ForeFlight, and cell coverage at TT. I couldn’t even make a call to FSS before departing TT.

We briefed the formation assuming forecasted VFR conditions from earlier that morning. We got to top of climb and I contacted FSS. It was clear that we were not going to be able to complete the flight VFR. The weather began about halfway, about 80 nm from the destination. KFFC weather was 800’ and 5 miles and forecasted to get lower.

I gave my wingman, Steve several choices:

1. Land somewhere and figure out what to do.
2. Split up the formation and individually file IFR.
3. File a two ship IFR flight plan.

He chose #3. I switched us over to Anderson Radio, filed the flight plan, switched to inter-plane, and thoroughly briefed the new plan to include Lost Wingman procedures. Then we switched to ATC and picked up the clearance. ATC confirmed with us that we were indeed a flight of two. Poor Steve was on my wing in the soup for 40 minutes! We were vectored all over creation and finally broke out at 600’ on the ILS.

So yes, it can be done. But it’s important to note that we were both current and qualified. We had also previously flown formation together many times to include full profiles of fingertip up to 90 deg of bank, 2-3g, Close Trail, Extended Trail, rejoins, etc. I guess the only thing we hadn’t previously practiced was Lost Wingman, but that’s why it was thoroughly briefed.

Jerry

 

[RV8Squaz]

i wouldn’t do it unless all formation pilots and airplanes were IFR capable and current.

 

[Majorpayne317641]

I was wondering how you’d handle things in a formation if visibility dropped to zero/zero?

You would have to break up the formation flying a set lost wingman contract of some sort similar to military aviation. You’d have to tell the controller and they would then give radar vectors to each individual aircraft and altitudes to fly with separate squawk codes. Once they are able to ensure separation from the other aircraft with their required spacing they give each aircraft its own separate IFR clearance. That would be a nightmare in an RV. Not sure I’d want to do anything but go through a cloud deck in formation like a VFR on top and VFR below scenario.

To be clear all pilots and aircraft would have to be appropriately rated equipped and current. Standard assumptions apply here.

 

[nohoflyer]

I did this many years ago as a flight of two returning to KFFC in S. Atlanta metro area from Triple Tree. I was lead in my 8 and the other was in his 8A. We were both ex AF IP’s, IFR current and capable, and had flown formation many times together.

This was back before I had a capable smart phone, ForeFlight, and cell coverage at TT. I couldn’t even make a call to FSS before departing TT.

We briefed the formation assuming forecasted VFR conditions from earlier that morning. We got to top of climb and I contacted FSS. It was clear that we were not going to be able to complete the flight VFR. The weather began about halfway, about 80 nm from the destination. KFFC weather was 800’ and 5 miles and forecasted to get lower.

I gave my wingman, Steve several choices:

1. Land somewhere and figure out what to do.
2. Split up the formation and individually file IFR.
3. File a two ship IFR flight plan.

He chose #3. I switched us over to Anderson Radio, filed the flight plan, switched to inter-plane, and thoroughly briefed the new plan to include Lost Wingman procedures. Then we switched to ATC and picked up the clearance. ATC confirmed with us that we were indeed a flight of two. Poor Steve was on my wing in the soup for 40 minutes! We were vectored all over creation and finally broke out at 600’ on the ILS.

So yes, it can be done. But it’s important to note that we were both current and qualified. We had also previously flown formation together many times to include full profiles of fingertip up to 90 deg of bank, 2-3g, Close Trail, Extended Trail, rejoins, etc. I guess the only thing we hadn’t previously practiced was Lost Wingman, but that’s why it was thoroughly briefed.

Jerry

Sounds like a classic tweet profile!

 

[BCP Boys]

I did this many years ago as a flight of two returning to KFFC in S. Atlanta metro area from Triple Tree. I was lead in my 8 and the other was in his 8A. We were both ex AF IP’s, IFR current and capable, and had flown formation many times together.

This was back before I had a capable smart phone, ForeFlight, and cell coverage at TT. I couldn’t even make a call to FSS before departing TT.

We briefed the formation assuming forecasted VFR conditions from earlier that morning. We got to top of climb and I contacted FSS. It was clear that we were not going to be able to complete the flight VFR. The weather began about halfway, about 80 nm from the destination. KFFC weather was 800’ and 5 miles and forecasted to get lower.

I gave my wingman, Steve several choices:

1. Land somewhere and figure out what to do.
2. Split up the formation and individually file IFR.
3. File a two ship IFR flight plan.

He chose #3. I switched us over to Anderson Radio, filed the flight plan, switched to inter-plane, and thoroughly briefed the new plan to include Lost Wingman procedures. Then we switched to ATC and picked up the clearance. ATC confirmed with us that we were indeed a flight of two. Poor Steve was on my wing in the soup for 40 minutes! We were vectored all over creation and finally broke out at 600’ on the ILS.

So yes, it can be done. But it’s important to note that we were both current and qualified. We had also previously flown formation together many times to include full profiles of fingertip up to 90 deg of bank, 2-3g, Close Trail, Extended Trail, rejoins, etc. I guess the only thing we hadn’t previously practiced was Lost Wingman, but that’s why it was thoroughly briefed.

Jerry

Jerry,
You guys did that because you are badasses - Obviously your qualifications far exceed many of us here but even being current IFR, I would not try it. Not too long ago I was in IMC and could could barely see my wingtips and thought how much I hate the soup .. I can't imagine trying to fly formation and staying on someone's wings without looking at my gauges in full IMC. That is honestly a scary thought.