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How much power is enough?

N941WR

Legacy Member
I couldn't find a good thread to post this to so...

On Sunday I gave a ride to the guy with the hangar next to mine. He has a very nice O-360 powered -7A, so he knows a thing or two about RV's. Full tanks, and the two of us, figure 415 of bubba's, an empty weight of 990, for a total of 1621 lbs +/-.

It was around 94 degrees and with our 564 AGL airport the two of us were able to climb out at around 1100 FPM with the "little" 135 hp O-290-D2 up front. Sorry, I forgot to look at the DA.

For those of you think you MUST have a 180 HP engine in your -9 to help improve the climb performance, I'm thinking you might be better off saving the weight and going with the O-320.

Just some food for thought.
 
Great

Outstanding performance, Bill. How many guys got PPL's in a 65 HP J-3? Thousands! I hauled 65 Gallons of chemical in a ragged backpack PA-18 plus full fuel on 150 HP spraying for mosquitoes during a hot Georgia summer.

I guess when we start loading the dash with autopilots, Day/night VFR/IFR and expensive, heavy interiors, the matching engine's HP has to go up too. Then again, some folks can't have too much horsepower.

You did really well.

Regards,
Pierre
 
Where I notice the extra power is noticed is at altitude when you need to climb. At 10,000', full gross, I can climb at 1,000' FPM.

To each his own.
 
I wish I knew

I'm trying to figure out this exact question.

I've been acused, at times, of being a "minimalist" - trying to do more with less.

I'm leaning towards a 150 HP 0-320 that could be fueled with car gas if necessary.

There are times, though, that I wonder how my -9A would fly with an 0-235.

I'm trying to build a simple, light, efficient airplane.

Lots of production 4-place planes used an 0-320. I think some of these had gross weights in the 2200 lb range.

With the wife, me, full fuel and 50 lbs of baggage, my -9A should gross out about 1630 (assuming the empty weight is about 1050).

All this makes me confused when I hear of some builders souping up their 0-320s or even going with the 0-360.

Of course I know what DA can do to you, but if managed properly, what am I missing here?

Just asking....

Dave
 
I think a 150 hp, autogas 0-320 would be ideal for an RV-9. You should be able to pick one up for a reasonable price, and you'll never have to worry about the consequences of 100LL going away. As a bonus, if you're willing to go to the trouble of toting your own fuel to the field, you can save a bunch of money on gas...

Whenever I toy with the idea of an RV-10, the 235 hp, low compression 0-540 is in the back of my mind because of the same issues.
 
I went with 160hp O320 because it was the upper limit specified by Vans for the RV9. When I built RC planes I noticed that more power was better so that was my philosophy with my -9. I still burn 7gph and have been loaded very close to gross with no noticeable penalty 'cept for longer T/O and landing roll.
Everything else with mine is barebones simple and light.
"Simplicate and add lightness" I read somewhere recently.
 
pierre smith said:
Outstanding performance, Bill. How many guys got PPL's in a 65 HP J-3? Thousands! I hauled 65 Gallons of chemical in a ragged backpack PA-18 plus full fuel on 150 HP spraying for mosquitoes during a hot Georgia summer.

I guess when we start loading the dash with autopilots, Day/night VFR/IFR and expensive, heavy interiors, the matching engine's HP has to go up too. Then again, some folks can't have too much horsepower.

You did really well.

Regards,
Pierre
Pierre,

My engine came from a PA-18 duster. I think that is why it was set up for a controllable pitch prop and I'm sure the plane it came from went over on its back as some of the cooling fins on #1 are broken off. Nothing significant and that cylinder passed inspection so I'm flying with it.

You are right about the J-3 thing. I have so over grossed a J-3 and still flown it on hot days. Same with my 65 HP T-Craft, what those airplanes can do on 65 HP is just outstanding. That's why I wasn't really worried about the "small" engine.

Maybe George or one of the other Aero Engineer types can educate us on how much HP it takes to lift a pound. In other words, what kind of penalty do you take in hauling the extra weight of an O-360 vs its climb capability. Everyone already knows what it does to the useful load but at some point there has to be a tradeoff.
 
I have flown my -6 out of Leadville, CO with density altitude of 13,500' back when it had a "tired" 150 hp (over 2600 hrs) and a wood FP prop. I don't remember the exact climb rate, but it certainly was not a problem. The -9 should do even better with it's longer wing.
 
The -9 has plenty of wing and needs only a decent amount of power. Based on similar 2-seat "touring airplane" designs (Katana, Liberty), a power loading of around 12-13 lb/hr should work well (Katana is 14 and XL2 at 13). For a -9 at 1800lb MGTW, that's only 135 to 150hp.

The sole exception here is high DA, where the engine won't make close to rated power. Since the -9 seems to like high altitude cruise, it makes some sense to have extra power available, particularly if you live out West. So, a 150 Hp engine should give good performance, which is what people are reporting. 180Hp really makes it go.

I've always wondered how the -9 would fly with the IO-240F FADEC engine. It's a cost premium, but the engine has shown to be durable in the DA20-C1 application and they're getting some field test time on the FADEC version in the XL2. Mattituck lists the "full-up" weight at 240lb and new price at $27.8k, which is certainly a premium. However, if you want to forgo FADEC, the "standard" IO-240 is less than $21k. About $3k and 30 lb less than a Lyclone. However, I don't think a FWF is available.

TODR
 
the_other_dougreeves said:
The -9 has plenty of wing and needs only a decent amount of power. Based on similar 2-seat "touring airplane" designs (Katana, Liberty), a power loading of around 12-13 lb/hr should work well (Katana is 14 and XL2 at 13). For a -9 at 1800lb MGTW, that's only 135 to 150hp.
I couldn't agree more but on thing to note, the MGTW of the -9 is 1750, not 1800.

Here are the numbers from Van's web site:
Span 28 ft
Length 20 ft 5 in
Height 6 ft
Wing Area 124 sq ft
Weights
Empty Weight 1015 - 1057 lbs
Gross Weight 1600 - 1750 lbs
Loadings
Wing Loading 12.9 - 14.1lb/sq ft
Power Loading 13.6 - 10.9 lb/hp
 
Mel said:
I have flown my -6 out of Leadville, CO with density altitude of 13,500' back when it had a "tired" 150 hp (over 2600 hrs) and a wood FP prop. I don't remember the exact climb rate, but it certainly was not a problem. The -9 should do even better with it's longer wing.
Exactly. Did the same with my 160hp 6A (with a wood prop) on a July morning with a 220lb passenger. Performance was just fine.
 
Why?

My 150HP 0320 Bucker consistently burns 1/2g hour than my buddies 180 HP 0360 similarily equipped machines flying at same cruise speeds. If we are talking about efficiencies, it would seem the higher horse machines are more efficient from point A to point B. I have been told that Rockets are the most efficient of all.
So am I missing the point?
 
With open ended questions like "how much power is enough" I dont know how we make any progress on these sorts of discussions. Enough for what?
Getting airborn on a 7k' concrete runway?
300' departure roll and 3500fmp 2 people at 100kts surface to 10k'?
200kts cruise?

What is it you want to do?

I always get a kick out of the lighter smaller discussions. Yes lighter and smaller is great. UNLESS you really want to climb, or really want to go fast, or want to haul bubbas to 10k' in 3 minutes. When people want to go faster and climb more, haul more, they do not put less cubes up front.

So in the end, what is it you want to do?
OK end of rant.
Best,
 
How much power is enough? Many years ago I read about a Jungmeister that Sam Burgess had fitted with a 420 hp Allision turbo prop and a huge paddle bladed prop to set a time to climb record (from brake release to 3000m (9,842 ft) in 2 minutes 18 seconds). You had to push up the power progressively through the take-off roll, being careful to not have more than half throttle when you broke ground, or you wouldn't have enough aileron control to counter the torque of the prop. The technique was to accelerate to best climb speed, holding full aileron, and adding power to control bank angle as the speed increased. In my book, this aircraft almost had enough power :)
 
Bill Repucci fan!!!

Bill,
I really like your thinking and the airplane profile you created. I started my soon to fly O320 woody RV4 when I was in my late 30's. Eleven years has tempered my flight profile mind-set. Now I'm finally finishing it and happy, but at age 50 I really see value in your airplane and power plant combo. I want good fuel efficiency and reasonable performance. In that order....

Next time I build economy will be the greater emphasis. Less is more!!! Thanks for carrying the torch for the sake of lower power, efficient RV?s.

Sincerely,

Brian Vickers
RV4 finishing
Bainbridge Island, WA
 
How much is enough?

When asked how much money was enough John D Rockefeller answered, "Just a little bit more".
I feel the same about power.

Coming back from OSH this year cruising with a 160 horse RV6 at 10,000 my 200 horse 8 was using 6.4 gph compared to the 6's 8+ gph.
 
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Kahuna said:
When people want to go faster and climb more, haul more, they do not put less cubes up front.
Hmmm ... more often than not, I'd say that they put turbines up front.

I've never thought of the RV series (the -9 most of all) about faster, heavier, quicker. If that's what one wants in a single, perhaps a Lancair Propjet is the ticket.... 320+ kt, ~4000 fpm at MGTW, 1550 lb useful load? Better yet, how about an L-39? Or maybe .....

So perhaps the question is better framed as "how much is enough for the RV-9?" The O-360 200Hp is capable of pushing the airframe well beyond VNE in level flight at low to medium DA and, in my mind, is too much power. If you fly at higher DA (e.g., Western US), the O-235 probably isn't enough. So, the 150, 160 or 180 Hp O-320 seems to be the best fit IMHO unless you're never traveling close to or west of the Rockies.

I can't figure out the fuel efficiency figures reported that seem to indicate that for a given Hp setting, the O-360 is more fuel efficient than then O-320. I can see how the 160 Hp O-320 would be slightly more efficient than the 150 Hp version due to higher compression pistons. But why is the O-360 supposedly more efficient? Didn't Rutan experiment with this and was clearly convinced that for a given power setting, a smaller engine that was operating at closer to its design cruise power (not MCP!) was more efficient than a larger engine that was loafing? If Rutan designs are about anything, it's efficiency.

TODR
 
BSFC

I have a Lycoming manual around here somewhere that contains a graph plotting power vs. specific fuel consumption. The take home message was that the engine will deliver the most power per pound of fuel at only one power setting. Higher or lower power settings will produce less power per pound of fuel. So, if a larger engine is loafing (not running at best BSFC) and flying in formation with a smaller engine running at its best BSFC point, how does the larger engine burn less fuel for a trip? Of course, that assumes similarly equipped engines, ie: fuel injected/carbureted, CDI ignition/magnetos, leaned properly, and airplanes with very similar drag (so the power produced is the same). One possibility is that the smaller engine is running too hard, which really raises the BSFC and gives away efficiency to the larger engine. As I remember, the BSFC curve was hurt more by higher power than by lower power. When I find my Lyc manual I will report back.
 
I think it's generally true for Otto-cycle engines that lowest (best) SFC occurs at the same RPM as the torque peak, which is typically well down in the RPM range from the power peak.

All other things being equal, that makes sense that a larger engine might be operating closer to best SFC RPM for a given "power required" flight condition.

Over-sizing like this could be really harmful to SFC in a car, where the majority of operation is at a small percentage of output. Mabye it doesn't make much difference in a plane where the lowest power setting used is around 55%?
 
Kahuna and others,

This was pointed more at the -9 builders than the rest.

This issue comes up in the car world all the time and I think Lotus has pretty much settled it. Lighter is better.

Smaller car needs smaller engine to propel it, smaller engine means smaller fuel requirements, lighter weight means smaller brakes to stop it, etc.

Not to mention, lighter weight means it will handle better.

Granted, I would love to see how the -9 flies with 200 hp but the point of my post is, you don't need a big engine to get great performance from this aircraft. By "great performance" I'm talking about better than spam can performance.

Regarding the "my buddies IO-360 burns less than Joe's O-320" comment, I wonder how much the prop has to do with this.
 
N941WR said:
Kahuna and others,

This was pointed more at the -9 builders than the rest.

This issue comes up in the car world all the time and I think Lotus has pretty much settled it. Lighter is better.

Smaller car needs smaller engine to propel it, smaller engine means smaller fuel requirements, lighter weight means smaller brakes to stop it, etc.

Not to mention, lighter weight means it will handle better.

Granted, I would love to see how the -9 flies with 200 hp but the point of my post is, you don't need a big engine to get great performance from this aircraft. By "great performance" I'm talking about better than spam can performance.

Regarding the "my buddies IO-360 burns less than Joe's O-320" comment, I wonder how much the prop has to do with this.


I have to agree with Bill on this one. If an individual wants more speed and power in their aircraft, by all menas go for it - just not in an RV-9/A. The -9/A wasn't designed for that. There are many other choices if you want speed and climb.

my $.02
 
Robert M said:
I have to agree with Bill on this one. If an individual wants more speed and power in their aircraft, by all menas go for it - just not in an RV-9/A. The -9/A wasn't designed for that. There are many other choices if you want speed and climb.

my $.02

This is becoming the topic that just lures me in each time and I can't help myself. :mad: For those of you that are thinking about engine choices by all means use the smaller engine if it suits your mission. You will not be second guessed, judged, or thought less of by me or most likely any RV pilot that you happen to meet. Heck, we will just be glad to meet you and check out your plane when we cross paths in the future.

As for the power in the 9A... Mine is a 170hp per Bart Lalonde with a constant speed Hartzell and it will not get anywhere near the yellow in cruise. This in my opinion makes it underpowered! On the other side of the coin though I also like to fly at low power especially locally when a destination isn't the goal. Burns can be low and similar to the smaller engine.

Also above there was a question about the prop being the difference in the larger displacement engines burning less gas than the smaller ones when these planes travel together. I can't say for sure, but can tell you that on a recent trip the 0-360 powered RV's used the least gas, with the injected one running LOP using close to 2 gph less than me. A 150hp plane used the most! We all flew together and I have no explanation for this, just another witness account that this is a real and measurable condition. Again, my plane has a constant speed and I usually run the prop slow, or oversquare which helps with efficiency and the bigger engines still used less gas. :eek:

Best,
 
Bryan
Try this, next time you are flying beside the 360 engine set your engine at 55 or 60% power and run lean of peak. Now get him to fly your speed and I would be willing to bet that you will both be using very close to the same fuel. It takes a certain amount of hp to push these planes through the air. Try it and report back.
 
RV-6A vs RV-9A

Alex Peterson has a FI/EI/CS RV-6A O-360-180 and I have a Carb/EI/CS RV-9A 0-320-160. We have run side by side, both LOP, and we burn almost exactly the same per hour. The only problem (from my perspective) is Alex can go faster when he wants to(and burn a bit more gas). ;)

I think we were at about 6500 feet when we did the check. We did the same thing down low at very low power settings and the result was similar.

Alex - any other details I forgot?
 
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I flew along side a 160 hp fixed pitch RV6 and 180 hp io360 fixed pitch RV4 for about 800 miles. I was in my 200 hp RV8 CS 3 blade hartzell. We were cruising at 155 knots TAS.
The RV6 was using 8.5 gph, the RV4 was using 6.5 gph and the RV8 was at 6.4 gph. I don't know how leaned the other planes were but the RV8 was 80degrees ROP. This was at 10,500. I was showing 17.8 manifold pressure and 2350 rpm. The RV4 was showing a couple tenths more manifold pressure and 2400 rpm.
At fill up on 2 hours legs the 6 was taking approx 4 more gallons and 8 was taking a couple tenths to a half a gallon less than the 4.
Not very scientific but the larger more powerful engines did use significantly less fuel at the same speed whether constant speed or fixed.
 
Sorry

Details added in the post above.

Alex Peterson has a FI/EI/CS RV-6A O-360-180 and I have a Carb/EI/CS RV-9A 0-320-160
 
Van's Statement

the_other_dougreeves said:
If you fly at higher DA (e.g., Western US), the O-235 probably isn't enough.

Ahhhh, but let's remember that Van's had an 0-235 / 118hp in the original prototype, and they are DEFINETELY in the Western US :D

Van's even went as far as elaborating to a great degree on their website, about how well the 118hp performed.

Surely not trying to spark any debates here, just reminding everyone what Van himself thought about the low HP on the -9.

Take care,
 
txaviator said:
Ahhhh, but let's remember that Van's had an 0-235 / 118hp in the original prototype, and they are DEFINITELY in the Western US :D

Van's even went as far as elaborating to a great degree on their website, about how well the 118hp performed.

Surely not trying to spark any debates here, just reminding everyone what Van himself thought about the low HP on the -9.

Take care,
I think the -9 is a good performer with the O-235, but I doubt that it will handle DA above 12-15k MSL that well. In many places out west, the IFR MEA/MCA/etc is 12000ft or more, and Van's reports a ceiling of 14,000 with the O-235. Factor in UDDF that you can get over that terrain and summer temps (ISA+25, anyone?) that push DA up by over 3000 ft, and that's not going to inspire confidence.

Also remember that Van's recommends 1750 MGTW for the -9 and lots of other people are flying it at 1800 or 1850.

The -9 works fine with the O-235, and if it works for you, then fly it, but I'd rather go with the O-320 for flying in higher DA.

TODR
 
the_other_dougreeves said:
Also remember that Van's recommends 1750 MGTW for the -9 and lots of other people are flying it at 1800 or 1850
TODR,

This may be true but if you use the smaller engine and wood prop, you won't need to set your GW above the recommended 1750 lbs.

I don't buy the argument "lots of other people are flying it at 1800 or 1850". That is no reason to not build your RV as light as possible or to set the GW above the designer's recommendation. (Ok, I'm ducking now that I've started THAT discussion again.)

My O-290 power -9 came in at 990, leaving me 760 lbs to haul around. That gives me a higher useful load than many O-320 powered -9's with GW's of 1800 & 1850 lbs.

From Dan's web site:
Van's RV-9 - 2 Samples (one is mine) - Avg. useful load: 727
Van's RV-9A -18 Samples - Avg useful load: 713
 
I am finding this discussion interesting as I am in the very preliminary stages of trying to decide upon an engine. As with others, what engine I happen to ultimately select might come down to whatever good deal I happen to find when I am ready to purchase but, barring such luck, I am looking at the options that are available.

I am sure the O-235 would be a fine engine for much of the flying I would do. But, I do plan on some cross country flying, so a little extra speed would be nice. But, I am a low time pilot and I don't want a hot plane that would get me into trouble either (hence my decision to build the -9).

Now, one problem with the 235 is that Van's doesn't sell them, so I am stuck with the used market and we have read some of horror stories about that, where one ends up spending as much getting the things running properly as a new engine would cost.

Sure, I can get a new 235 certified engine from Lycoming for $22,500. No one apparently makes an experimental version of this engine, but an experimental O-320 is $21,650. Simply based on cost (unless one is a stickler for a certified engine, or if the fuel economy of the -235 is shown to be significant), the -235 can be scratched off the list of new engines.

But, one can get some nice experimental engines from Superior (including others). An XP O-320 from them is $20,900. (I am quoting carbureted, fixed pitch engines right now.) But, just for grins, what about a -360? From Superior, the price for the XP is $21,600, but includes fuel injection. A fuel injected -320 is $21,200. For just $300 more, fuel injection seems the way to go.

So, now comparing the FI -320 to the -360, the price difference is just $400. What about the sizes and weights? The Superior site lists the exact same dimensions for both engines, with the -360 between 3 to 18 pounds heavier, depending upon options.

One can get both engines with different compressions for a bit more money. I won't get into that, but if one goes with lower compression, as I will do so I can use mogas, one will end up with 150 HP for the -320 and 170 HP for the -360. OK, Van's says to not exceed 160 HP for the RV-9, but 170 HP is just a tad over 6% above that stated maximum. Given that the engine is only about 2% higher in cost, the 6% higher HP your get in return is a great deal.

So, I can see the temptation to spend something like $400 more to get an extra 20 horses worth of power. Sure, there will be a weight penalty, but apparently no more than 18 pounds. My wife and I, at least at this stage, might total up to around 300 pounds, still leaving plenty of capacity for fuel and baggage.

I am ruling out a used -235? No. Bill R?s results show that it is a very viable engine and, with expensive gasoline, the economy is very attractive, especially if would be flying locally mostly. I am, obviously, ruling out a new -235. I know that even with a tiny cost differential of the -360 over the -320, the -320 might still be the better engine to use, but if the larger engine will give better economy as some have been saying, then I may go for the -360 and trust myself to make sure I throttle back whenever I enter into a cruise descent.

Like I said, I still have a ways to go before I decide, but choosing an engine is probably as big a decision as choosing the kit and there is not always a single right answer. More thoughts about engine choice and economy of operation would be appreciated.
 
Jeff R....

Remember that Bill is flying behind an O-290, not an O-235. But....I still see all of your points :D

Take care,
 
Jeff R said:
I am sure the O-235 would be a fine engine for much of the flying I would do. But, I do plan on some cross country flying, so a little extra speed would be nice. But, I am a low time pilot and I don't want a hot plane that would get me into trouble either (hence my decision to build the -9).

Other than a little extra speed; more horses can get you out of high density altitude problems too!

As I live in a high altitude, high summer heat area, this is a problem that bugs me about marginally powered spam cans, more than anything else.

Since the RV's traditionally have a much better climb rate than many certified aircraft, I'd prefer to keep it that way.

L.Adamson
 
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