How long to build empennage?

[KC10Chief]

I was telling my wife recently that it's completely ridiculous that I'm 33 years old and I don't have my own airplane yet! I've been lusting after an RV for years. I've had my PPL since I was 18. Renting doesn't allow me to do the type of flying I want to do. I started out wanting a 9A, but am now pretty set on a -7 tail dragger. Problem is, I'm currently in the Air Force stationed in Alaska. I will be here until the summer of 2013 when I'll be moving back to the lower 48. Most likely Oklahoma. I am thinking about ordering the tail feathers and building them while I'm here. It wouldn't be too big of a deal to move them like it would be to move wings or a fuselage. When I get moved, I could get the rest of the plane. Honestly, I'm not even sure how I'll afford an entire RV-7 or when I'll find the time or if I'll even be able to find a good job when I retire in a few years. I guess that's part of the deal with home built aircraft. If I ordered the empennage after Christmas, would I be able to get it done in a year and a half? I'm home 90% of the time. Anybody else start out in a similar situation?

 

[DaAV8R]

Time to build

If you buy the kit, you'll finish it in a few months. If you don't order, you'll never get it done. Tools might be your biggest challenge. The tail group is alot of fun.

 

[kevinh]

I think the amount of time that building the emp takes is highly dependent on the individual. This is a good thing, because I think it is a good predictor of who will finish the RV vs selling the kit uncompleted.

I spent a couple of years as the local EAA chapter president and I found the following heuristic useful (these are ballpark numbers):

• If the person finishes the Emp in 3 mos or less they really dig building & consistently set aside time. They will very likely finish the plane.
• If the person finishes in less than 6 months, then it is less likely that they will actually finish the rest of the plane.
• If it takes them more than six months to build the Emp they should think carefully about 'is plane building right for me' before plunking down big money for the other kits.

Of course every builder is different and many folks succeed on the '20 yr builds' but I find it a warning sign if it takes more than 6 months to do the emp. In any case, you should definitely be able to complete the emp in less than a year.

 

[hydroguy2]

84hrs of build time for me according to my log.

The biggest problem, the way I see it, will be you'll get done with the tail and be chomping to do more. The torture of waiting another year to start the wings will kill you. Might as well order the wings too.

 

[Vlad]

Do not start untill...

I would differ on this Matt. Do not start till everything is planned and funds calculated. It could be money frozen and you may not recover even part of it. Retire, get a good job and think it over again. At 33 life is just starting Stay engaged here. You may just buy your dream machine in couple years. Building in challenging environment is quite an endeavor.

 

[N941WR]

Good question!

I just checked my builder's log and found that I my tail kit arrived on 4/30/2003 and I finished the entire tail kit, less fiberglass on 10/12/2003. It took me 230 hours to get that point, averaging 3.3 hours a work session spread over 69 work sessions. (Yes, my log was kept in Excel.)

In that time, I damaged one horizontal skin and the associated ribs along with some other items. There is some re-work time in there as that also includes learning how to rivet, thus the damaged HS, priming, and learning other new skills.

Go ahead and start. To paraphrase Mayor Marion Barry, “Rivets don’t pound themselves.”

PS. I recently had a look at a new RV-7 tail kit and many of the parts I had to make for my kit now come precut. (Don't let an RV-3, -4, & -6 builder near your kit as they will pass out when they see how complete the kits are now.)

 

[Charles in SC]

I went to the builders class in Griffin, Georgia and built my emp in 7 days. I worked my butt off and really stayed after it. The guys there told me that not many folks get it done in the week alloted. I was in their shop 12-14 hours a day (91 hrs). I could not have gotten it done any where near that fast if I had not gone to Alexander's class.
If you do not start you will never get it done.
Bite the bullet!

 

[KC10Chief]

Well, I'm pretty sure I'd love building and I know I'll find the time. I know it's not the same, but I've built countless RC planes. I love to build things. I know I'll be able to afford everything eventually. I still have six years to go in the Air Force before I'm eligible to retire. I think it would be great to have it finished by the time I retire. Also, you're probably right about wanting to build the wings after I get done with the empennage. I figure that building an airplane is a lot like having kids. There's never a really good time in your life to do it. My dad, who is also a pilot, has talked about building a plane ever since I can remember. Now, he's in his mid 60's and has never done it. He never took the first step. If I end up selling it incomplete someday, so be it. I don't think that will happen though.

 

[KC10Chief]

Also, do most people keep a builders log? I don't know much about that. Would I count all of the time I spend in my garage, drinking beer and staring at it?

 

[N941WR]

Also, do most people keep a builders log? I don't know much about that. Would I count all of the time I spend in my garage, drinking beer and staring at it?

You need to provide proof that YOU built the plane. A builder's log is one way to do that. Oh, and you want pictures of YOU building the plane. (I had lots of pictures at first but not many of me working on it.)

A digital camera and notes in the builder's manual will work.

You can check my site for a sample of the excel sheet I created.

As for what you logged, it is up to you. Some builders log every second they are thinking about it and others only log time with a tool in hand. I logged time in the shop, because if I was there, it had to do with the kit.

 

[CDBridgesRV7A]

KC10Chief

You are me about 8 months ago I got back from the Sand Box in April and ordered my tail feathers. I started building May 16th and started on the Wings on Dec 1st. That makes it 6.5 months for the tail. I had some breaks in there due to work (whole month of Oct) plus summer vacation and family committments.

I'm posted in the summer of 2013 as well. Like I said, I started the wings on Dec 1st. I'm planning on being done those when the movers come to pack the house in 2013. I'll hold off on the fuseleage until I get to my next post. I'm guessing a year to build the wings, however I'm gone next Oct for 2.5 months, so another chunk of time gone for building.

What I strive to do is 2 hrs a night (Monday to Thursday). Fridays is family day so no building. I then try for 4 hrs (2 in the afternoon, 2 at night) on Saturdays and Sundays. I don't always make this but this is what I try for. That works out to 16 hrs per week which equates to 2.4 years of building. Due to all the breaks I've had and will have I doubled this and allotted 4 years to finish the project.

Hope this helps you out.

Cheers

Chris Bridges.

PS I'm Air Force as well! North of the border

 

[hydroguy2]

Simple as putting a calendar on the wall. When you leave for the day, just jot down approximately what you did. Amount of time doesn't really matter.

12/21 worked on VS 1.3hrs or in the border of the build manual circle the step and put the date.

 

[diamond]

I think the amount of time that building the emp takes is highly dependent on the individual. This is a good thing, because I think it is a good predictor of who will finish the RV vs selling the kit uncompleted.

I spent a couple of years as the local EAA chapter president and I found the following heuristic useful (these are ballpark numbers):

• If the person finishes the Emp in 3 mos or less they really dig building & consistently set aside time. They will very likely finish the plane.
• If the person finishes in less than 6 months, then it is less likely that they will actually finish the rest of the plane.
• If it takes them more than six months to build the Emp they should think carefully about 'is plane building right for me' before plunking down big money for the other kits.

Of course every builder is different and many folks succeed on the '20 yr builds' but I find it a warning sign if it takes more than 6 months to do the emp. In any case, you should definitely be able to complete the emp in less than a year.

Last week when I built my EAA workbenches, I wondered if the time it takes to build the benches is any indicator of how long it will take to build the RV. The benches, like the kits, can be built with various levels of precision and modifications. I raised my bench, narrowed the width, made it longer than plans, installed casters and lowered the shelf a few inches. I hope my 2.5 hours per bench is a good indicator that I will one day complete an RV.

 

[instructor_bill]

Last week when I built my EAA workbenches, I wondered if the time it takes to build the benches is any indicator of how long it will take to build the RV. The benches, like the kits, can be built with various levels of precision and modifications. I raised my bench, narrowed the width, made it longer than plans, installed casters and lowered the shelf a few inches. I hope my 2.5 hours per bench is a good indicator that I will one day complete an RV.

That sounds great... but did you research the best screws to use, prime all parts before assembly and match drill all holes first?

 

[diamond]

That sounds great... but did you research the best screws to use, prime all parts before assembly and match drill all holes first?

OOPS...no I didn't think about those things Bill, but probably should have. Should I try and replace just the parts affected by those oversights, or should I start over with all new bench parts and do it right from the beginning?

 

[Lemmingman]

For logging time, I just jot down the completion date of when I finished something in the margins of my manual along with any notes.

 

[fatherson]

Should I try and replace just the parts affected by those oversights, or should I start over with all new bench parts and do it right from the beginning?

Oh, definitely start over from scratch. Later, when you're in the soup, at night, somewhere over the Rockies, do you really want to be thinking, "Why did I build this aircraft on an unprimed workbench?" Shudder!

--
Stephen

 

[diamond]

Oh, definitely start over from scratch. Later, when you're in the soup, at night, somewhere over the Rockies, do you really want to be thinking, "Why did I build this aircraft on an unprimed workbench?" Shudder!

--
Stephen

Point well taken. Come to think of it, I can't say with any certainty that all of the parts I used were certified. Guess I have lots to learn before embarking on the bigger project.

 

[twsurveyor]

Good question!

I just checked my builder's log and found that I my tail kit arrived on 4/30/2003 and I finished the entire tail kit, less fiberglass on 10/12/2003. It took me 230 hours to get that point, averaging 3.3 hours a work session spread over 69 work sessions. (Yes, my log was kept in Excel.)

I know that with the relative simplicity of the new totally prepunched tail kits this is sort of an apples and oranges thing but, it took me 240 hrs. to finish my RV-6A tail kit complete with all fiberglass work done. Also realize that (unlike some folks) I counted all my hours (reading plans & instructions, a** scratching, etc.) not just hours spent with a tool in my hand!

Long and short of it is, IMHO you ought to be able to finish one of the new tail kits complete with fiberglass in 150 hours or less.

Hope this helps,

 

[rleffler]

Well, I'm pretty sure I'd love building and I know I'll find the time. I know it's not the same, but I've built countless RC planes. I love to build things. I know I'll be able to afford everything eventually. I still have six years to go in the Air Force before I'm eligible to retire. I think it would be great to have it finished by the time I retire. Also, you're probably right about wanting to build the wings after I get done with the empennage. I figure that building an airplane is a lot like having kids. There's never a really good time in your life to do it. My dad, who is also a pilot, has talked about building a plane ever since I can remember. Now, he's in his mid 60's and has never done it. He never took the first step. If I end up selling it incomplete someday, so be it. I don't think that will happen though.

I think that is a great plan! Especially is your father is located with you in Alaska. It's always nicer to have a build partner.

My son assisted me in building my RV-10. He wants to build a RV-8 (his wife wants a RV-7, but that's another story). But since he's heading off to ENJJPT in a few weeks, he won't have time to build for at least a year or so. He's now attempting to talk me into starting the build without him. Although I'm not sure I'm up to being a repeat building after five years of building the RV-10.

Good luck with your future project!

bob

 

[mikerkba]

Get your RV for free, and build it faster.

I'm not even sure how I'll afford an entire RV-7 or when I'll find the time or if I'll even be able to find a good job when I retire in a few years. I guess that's part of the deal with home built aircraft. ...

Give up the rentals and pay for half your airplane. Apply your GA rental fees and flight time to the build. (Sounds like you might already fly for Uncle Sam, so that is your flying "fix" for the time being.)

I sold my C182 when, early in the building process, it bacame obvious that flying was a temptation away from building. Over the 5 years I built and did not own a plane, the savings from insurance, annuals, fuel, unscheduled maintenance on the 182 more than paid for kits (5 installments, including the FWF kit) and left plenty to apply to engine and Stein.

 

[KC10Chief]

My dad lives in Oklahoma City. That's where I'll likely be going when I move in 2013. He would definitely love building one though. Maybe he'd even chip in an IO-360 or something!

I don't want to give up flying GA. Flying for Uncle Sam is quite a bit different and nowhere near as much fun. I'm a flight engineer on the E-3, not a pilot. I do pretty much everything on the flight deck except steer. Preflight, pushing up the throttles, tuning radios, hydraulics, pressurization, etc. Just no flying the airplane itself. Also, it gets kind of dull droning around at 30,000 feet for hours and hours and hours. I started out as heavy aircraft maintenance when I first joined the Air Force. I've done enough riveting in my day to build three or four RVs. HA!

When I retire from the Air Force, I don't think I want anything to do with airplanes any more other than for pleasure. I'm not interested in being a commercial pilot, aircraft maintenance and I'm certainly not interested in working for Uncle Sam any more. HA! But I absolutely LOVE flying. I love flying when my hands are on the controls and I'm doing what I want to do and going where I want to go.

I'd also like to finish up my IFR rating while I'm here as well. The base here has an Aero Club. The rates are fairly reasonable. I started my IFR rating about 10 years ago but life got in the way. I think I'd be pretty good at it as we fly in IMC all the time here. I could fly IFR now, no problem. I just need the rating! HA! When I build my RV, I want it to be IFR capable.

 

[dave4754]

Time and money

I have about 150 hours on my empennage and it is finished mostly, here in Canada we cannot close a structure until it has passed inspection. That being said probably another 10 hours to close and install fiberglass. (Other posters might have a better time record on the fiberglass bits). In my humble opinion, time should not be a factor unless you cannot give it because of kids, wife, and work and not necessarily in that order. Money is a different matter, I make good money here in Canada but it will take a sizable amount of cash to finish one of these great aircraft. My RV 7 has a used engine for 4500 dollars ( I will rebuild after the 300 hours are used up) and I will install a VFR glass cockpit, this will cost around 50,000 dollars Cdn. and I think I will be short some "nice to have things" like an autopilot. So IMHO if you love it and want it you will make the time... the money well I will leave that up to you ..... sometimes you gotta dream BIG! That is how i became a pilot in the first place.