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High compression Pistons

Delta Golf

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I have a Lycoming O-360 engine with high compression pistons (10:1) but the rings have never really seated. Had new rings put in and they have not seated either and the oil comsumption remains high. (1 quart every 2.5 to 3.5 hrs)

Any suggestions before I go back to the standard compression pistons?
 
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Welcome to VAF.

Don't think your seating issues (or high oil consumption) has anything to do with the compression ratio of the pistons. It has to do with the normal seating (and consumption) things like -

Were your cylinder walls honed before installing new pistons and rings??

Are the rings compatible with the cylinder wall materials (chrome, nickel steel etc)??

What is the size and condition of your bores??

Is there another problem (worn valve guides)??? Etc etc

There are plenty of high compression engines out there with low oil consumtion numbers (good condition and good ring seating). Sounds like you need to consult with a good engine guy (A&P).

Welcome again, fly safe.
 
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Too many unknowns...

Were the cylinders honed when the new rings were installed?
This is a must!
Are the cylinders chrome?
Sometimes chrome cylinders are hard to break-in!
Are you running an AD oil?
Often a non-detergent oil will help ring seating.
Did you run the engine a lot on the ground before flight?
Too much ground running will "glaze" the cylinders!
Are you running the engine "hard" for break-in?
This is necessary for break-in!

Compression ratio is not related to ring seating!
 
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Cylinders were honed
Steel Cylinders
Using Mineral Oil
Very short ground time before take off on first flight.
Running the engine at 75% pwr or higher
At the ring change all valve guides were with in tolerance but put new ones in anyway because they were getting close.

Using a professional engine shop but just wanted to get any ideas before I give up on the high compression pistons. The cylinder walls seem to be glazing very early in the break in.

Thanks
 
flyingriki
If it is not the high compression then tell me what the problem is. I covered all of Mels suggestion.

I've talked to my the engine guy about all the other high compression engines that don't have high oil comsumption. All we can come up with is the higher temperature and pressure in my engine in my airplane is causing the cylinder walls to gaze before the rings seat.

Before I fly the next time I want to make sure I've covered all the bases on what else might be causing this so I don't end up with glazed cylinder walls and rings that don't seat.

Sometimes I miss what is right in front of me, so tell me what I'm not "listening" to.
 
When I rebuilt my O-320, I changed from 7:1 to 9.5:1. My oil consumption is about 1 qt every 16 hrs. and has been for over 800 hrs.
 
Mel
That is the kind of oil consumption that I want with my engine. All kinds of things running thru my mind as to why I don?t have that. Thought the CH temperature might be to high and caused the glazing but they are all within limits and I?ve checked the probes to make sure they are right. Going to re-check before next flight.

Seems like I might the exception and not the rule as far as high compression and high oil consumption goes.
 
All we can come up with is the higher temperature and pressure in my engine in my airplane is causing the cylinder walls to gaze before the rings seat.

That is completely wrong. High cylinder pressures help break in rings, but in addition to that there are a lot of variables to the hone job which must be carefully done by the engine guy in order to be successful. I can tell within 10 seconds of examining a cylinder bore if it will use oil or not after it comes back from a cylinder shop. And it depends on the crosshatch pattern and the grit of stones used. If he's using a ball hone and not a Sunnen, run Forest run. Too little of roughness, the cylinder walls will not retain oil. This is why chrome cylinders use oil, the channels are too thin and shallow to retain oil. Too much and you'll get too much heat on the cylinder wall thus causing glazing and premature ring wear.

None of the engines I've built use oil. I've even had cylinders with larger-than-spec ring gaps due to tolerance stack-up that don't use oil.

You must allow the engine to cool in between runs per the ECI procedure to prevent glazing. Most of the breakin occurs in the first minute or so.

If you pull a cylinder and they're glazed they'll have a tan appearance to them, like coffee with cream in it.
 
I've got the o-360 with 10:1 pistons. Bought plane couple years ago with around 700 hours and burning about a quart every 4 to 5 hours. It had a couple cylinders getting below 70 on comp check so had new rings put in and honed cylinders. Ran straight weight for about 50 hours and ran hard.... Burns a quart every 12 to 13 hours now.

Just adding my 2cents for another data point.

As a side note, I thought the high comp pistons caused higher temps also, had to really watch it in a long climb. Last year at annual I spent some time with the sillycone and sealed the baffles to engine seams. Also added a couple washers at the rear baffle on right side. Now I can leave full power in, set trim for 120kts and climb as long as I want on a 100 degree day with no problems.
 
High Compression pistons

I have the exact same problem as Delta Golf,
New Superior 0-360 XP EXTREM with 10:1 pistons, high oil consumption and dirty oil, at 150 hours I pulled the cylinders, took them to a quality engine shop, cylinders were honed, new .010 over rings, broke it in HARD, Taxied directly from the hangar to the runway then, full power/ 2700 RPM down low for over an hour. Same problem. What gives?
 
I've been wrong before, but I think the goal is to get high BMEP to seat the rings but at the same time not get too high on temps. I think high temps will break down the oil and lead to glazing. At the same time, too little BMEP lets oil blow by the rings and that also leads to glazing. I think to get it right you have to be somewhere in the middle. Also, bear in mind that CHTS don't tell you whats going on on the cylinder side wall.

In a nutshell, what you're experiencing actually sounds correct. (Running the high compression cylinders hard solves the BMEP goal but because there's more heat, the oil is more prone to break down and thus you're getting the glazing.)

It used to be that on the Mattituck website Mahlon described this a little better - might be worth a look.

Were it mine, I'd pull the jugs, rehone (assuming nitride not nickel carbide for which there is a slightly different procedure), rering.

Then just two starts each no more than two minutes. One where it runs up to about 1800 for a bit - checking operation and no oil leaks. Several hour cool down. Second start - again not long - just enough to make sure you can get takeoff power. Again several hour cool down. I'd tow it to the runway - do not taxi - too long a ground run if you try taxiing out.

On the takeoff, partial power until you get to about 40 - 50 kts (for cooling airflow), then full power to pattern alt. Then climb power - what it takes to climb a few hundred feet per minute at a good airspeed to keep airflow through the cowl. When you get to the desired altitude, keep the power up but the CHT low.

If you do the above, expect the EGT / CHT to drop sharply in about 2 to 3/10ths of an hour - less than 20 minutes. That's all it should take for the initial ring seat. Once that happens, I'd run it at 75% or better for about 10 hours while avoiding high CHTs.

It will probably work out fine. (The above is basically the procedure I used after replacing my group B ECi jugs.)

Just another $.02 - good luck.

Dan
 
Thanks everyone for all the information on the High Compression Pistons. As most of you have said I don't think the problems is the High Compression Pistons. I think I have just allowed the temps to get to hot during the first flight with new rings.

I have a James Plenum and I will double check the seal around it before the first flight with the new rings. I will take care not to get things heated up before take-off or durning the climb.

I'll let all of you know what happened. If it doesn't go well you will most like hear my loud screems from where every you are in the country.

Thanks again,
 
Engine Break in

Maybe this can be of some help to you.

http://www.david.it/superiordoc/cont...lsl/L96-08.pdf

Date: 07/15/2004
Subject: Millennium Cylinder On-Aircraft Break-In Procedure
Application: All engines with newly installed Millennium cylinders that are to be broken-in on the
aircraft.
To achieve satisfactory ring seating and long cylinder life, after top overhaul or a major engine
overhaul, break-in is critical. The aircraft can be a suitable test stand for running-in cylinders. All
original equipment manufacturer’s and Superior Air Parts service information should be followed for a
successful break-in. The following are some general guidelines for break-in.
PRIOR TO START-UP:
• Engine should be filled, according to the operator’s manual, with 100% mineral oil (specific grade
depending on ambient temperature).
• Engine must be pre-oiled and oil pressure obtained prior to start-up. See appropriate service data
for procedures.
• Engine baffles and seals must be in good condition and properly installed.
• Verify accuracy of instruments.
GROUND RUN:
• Flight propeller may be used if test club is not available.
• Head aircraft into the wind.
• Start engine, and observe oil pressure. Oil pressure should be indicated within 30 seconds – if not,
shut down engine, and determine cause.
• Run engine just long enough to confirm everything is properly adjusted, secured and there are no
fuel and/or oil leaks.
• Install cowling.
• Operate engine at 1000-RPM until oil has reached minimum operating temperature.
• Check magneto drop at normal RPM.
• If engine is equipped with a controllable pitch propeller, cycle only to a 100-RPM drop.
• Shut down engine and check for fuel and/or oil leaks and repair any discrepancies.
• At no time should cylinder head temperature be allowed to exceed original airframe equipment
manufacturer recommended maximum cruise limit.
Superior Ref CR Page 2 of 2 Uncontrolled VIEW
Corporate Office – 621 S. Royal Lane, Suite 100 – Coppell, Texas (972) 829-4600
www.superiorairparts.com
6462
Number: L96-08 D
BREAK-IN FLIGHT OPERATION:
• Perform normal pre-flight and run-up in accordance with engine operator’s manual (remember: only
cycle prop to a 100 RPM drop if you have a controllable pitch propeller). Keep ground runs to a
minimum.
• Conduct normal take-off at full power, full rich mixture, to a safe altitude.
• Maintain a shallow climb at full power. Use caution to avoid overheating the cylinders. Should
overheating occur, reduce power and adjust mixture appropriately. Refer to Pilot’s Operating
Handbook for specific procedures and temperatures including leaning to a fuel flow meter or leaning
without EGT or fuel flow meters.
• Monitor RPM, oil pressure, oil temperature & cylinder temperature.
• During the first hour of operation, maintain level flight at 75% power. Vary the power setting every
15 minutes during the second hour between 65-75%.
• Avoid long descents at cruise RPM and low manifold pressure (could cause ring flutter).
• After landing, check again for any fuel and/or oil leaks, or other discrepancies, and repair.
• Continue flying at 65-75% power with mixture adjusted to approximately 75°F rich of peak EGT on
subsequent flights until rings have seated, oil consumption stabilizes, and cylinder head
temperatures drop. This is a sign that the cylinders are broken in. Refer to Pilots Operating
Handbook for leaning with fuel a flow meter or leaning without fuel flow or EGT meters.
• After break-in, oil may be changed to ashless dispersent of the proper grade.
• At no time should cylinder head temperature be allowed to exceed original airframe equipment
manufacturer recommended maximum cruise limit.
NOTE:
Verify that crankcase breather and vent lines are correctly installed and positioned. Excessive oil
discharge through the breather can often be directly related to an improperly installed or restricted
breather line.
CAUTION:
Break-in of an engine in frigid conditions can lead to cylinder glazing and failed break-in due to low oil
temperature. It is recommended that oil temperature be maintained between 180° and 190° F.

Good Luck!

Dave Pohl
N442DP RV7A
 
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It will probably work out fine. (The above is basically the procedure I used after replacing my group B ECi jugs.)

Just another $.02 - good luck.

Dan

I expect you used PHILLIPS 66 XC multi-grade as recommended by ECi?
 
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