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Has anybody checked actual roll rate in their RV?

N355DW

N355DW

Well Known Member
One of the cool things about in flight videos is that you can actually check the manufacturer's published roll rate against the timeline in the video editor. Here is a short clip of my 13 yr old niece in my old Extra 300L. The first roll is about 200 degrees/second, the second is about 230. I'm being gentle as it was her first aerobatic ride!:eek:

Actually, she did great. For those interested the trick is to pull the nose up a little and let it drop during the roll, that way we kept positive G through the roll, instead of a competition style where you would come out of your seat when passing inverted. A speedy barrel roll, if you will.

Anyway, at full stick deflection in level flight, WOT (about 155-160k) the best I could get in the Extra was 270 degrees/second. It would take at least two rolls to get to that speed.

Has anybody checked this in their RV yet? I'm not trying to compare the two planes, just curious if folks have done this and what the results might be.

http://youtu.be/rT9vnmVuCiY
 
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I've found about 90 -100 deg/sec for an RV-7, depending on airspeeed and technique.
 
I've been workign up to it in the -3....but haven't gone full deflection yet. It's not going to surpass a dedicated Acro machine, but it's noticeably quick.

Paul
 
Funny that you mentioned this...

Here's my first attempt in the Midget Mustang. The camera is mounted under the right wing, so there's a bit of dihedral that makes it look like I start and stop at something other than wings level.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUv8vF8ICcY

Heck, I'm no good, but it sure is fun messing around!
 
RWoodard said:
Heck, I'm no good, but it sure is fun messing around!
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Cool - btw, in your youtube comments you say you aren't sure if the pulsing is due to the mount or electronic. In my case it was the mount. I solved that problem by making a slightly aerodynamic mount that was aft of the camera and kept it from moving in the wind.
 
RWoodard said:
Funny that you mentioned this...

Here's my first attempt in the Midget Mustang. The camera is mounted under the right wing, so there's a bit of dihedral that makes it look like I start and stop at something other than wings level.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUv8vF8ICcY

Heck, I'm no good, but it sure is fun messing around!
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I don't have experience with the MM, but I've always wondered how the heck Mustang Aero came up with a 300 deg./sec roll rate in the listed specs. Your fastest one was about 130 deg/sec, which is still pretty good. With gap seal tape, my (Friese aileron) Pitts S-1S rolls about 180 deg./sec. It'll snap roll about 360 deg/sec if you hit one clean. Maybe they mean (snap) roll speed for the Midget. :)
 
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I think all manufacturers tend to exaggerate this a bit. I think Extra claims better than 300 degrees/ second. Maybe at Vne.:rolleyes:

The fastest rolling plane I ever flew was Richard Giles first G-200. Full span ailerons and short, light wings. I have no idea how fast, but I bet it was close to 400/second. I remember I did about six consecutive rolls in it, and when I stopped my head smacked the canopy and my eyes did one more roll on their own! Wonder if that plane is still flying. Nice little machine, much better than the 202, until Chris turned it into the MX2.

To bring this back to RV's, I am thinking of making an extra set of flat wing tips with a slight fence in the rear, as Bill who posts as Willyeyeball here has done on his. Swap them out for contests. But I'm really not all that concerned, I think the RV's can out roll a Decathlon and do just fine in contests if they are flown smoothly. I like they way they look flying, I'm going to have to see if I can get a ride in one soon!
 
RV-4 roll rate

Damon,
As you illuded, method of measuring the roll rate is a factor, especially since it's really an acceleration and deacceleration (start/stop) maneuver. When I went to the flat wing tips, I just wanted a relative repeatable method to compare the flat versus stock wing tips. Mounting the video camera forward, I set the entrance speed as 135 knots, pitched up slightly, neutralized the controls for 1 second, and full stick right or left. I repeated the rolls about 10 times right and left, with standard and without the flat wing tips. I don't have the nice movie making software with a 10th or 100th of a second timer/clock, so just viewed the video with a stop watch, timing from start to wings level for 1 turn. Repeated the measurements from the videos multiple times. Stock wing tips was 140 degrees/second. The flat wing tips rate was 160 degrees/second. Also the Dynon 10A would lock up with the flat wing tips, and I think that occurs over 180 degrees/second. Next time I'm out, I'll pay more attention to the exact pitch up angle if we want to compare aircraft using the same method. Surely someone in the Sebring area will give you an RV ride.
Bill McLean
RV-4 Slider
 
@ Damon Wack:

If you've flown a G-200, you're in a very luck group, indeed. I've got a buddy who was an OEM airframe parts supplier to Giles before the business went away. My buddy had enough left over parts that he built one for himself. I think there are fewer than 20 G-200's flying in the country. Two of them currently share the same hangar at KFNL. Another is based at nearby Longmont, CO.

Very cool airplanes. And you're right, they roll faster than anything I've ever seen. Here's a pic of the nicest G-200 you'll ever see ANYWHERE! If you look closely, the second G200 is in the background.

Oh. And BTW, I was going about 20 mph slower than I could have been in my Midget Mustang for those rolls. I hadn't been upside down in a couple of years so I figured I'd start slow!

G200.jpg
 
Based on review of video where I have done consecutive aileron rolls, and timing from inverted to inverted to eliminate acceleration and deceleration, I consistently measured 3.0 seconds for 360 degrees, or 120 degrees per second. This was done in an RV-8 with an entry speed of about 150 Kt IAS.
 
I suspect the tandem planes will be faster than the side by side, but I don't have any reasoning to back that up. Van's claims 140/second for the -7, so Bill that's pretty close to what you found. You do have to do about three or four consecutive rolls to get the rate to the maximum, and I consider it to be a fair measurement only at whatever speed the plane will do at WOT level flight, say at 1500' AGL or better.

@Paul - I suspect -3's and -4's probably have the best of all of them, I'll be interested to see what you get!

@Rod - At your altitude you might be losing some roll rate just from thinner air!

That's a good looking G-200 indeed! Richard Giles took his plane on a x-country demo flight to a lot of the IAC contests back in the mid nineties, and I got to fly his plane after the Sebring contest one year. I wanted to build one in the worst way, but by the time I had the money he was having trouble with finances. I was bummed. By then I was doing air shows and decided to build a Pitts Model 12.


I have a couple of an old IAC friends who are in your area. Dick Bevington is in Longmont. Dick has a Staudacher I think. I think Clyde Cable is nearby there, he had a Rebel, I remember seeing it for sale a couple of years ago. Great guys.
 
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N355DW said:
I suspect the tandem planes will be faster than the side by side, but I don't have any reasoning to back that up. .
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Maybe true when comparing the 7 and 8 that have basically the same wing and wing span. The 6 is quite a bit quicker than the 8 I suspect due to the shorter wing.
I have rolled both and it is noticable although I have never quantified it.
 
That's interesting that the 6 is quicker than an an 8. Actually, it's worse than interesting because I have half of an 8 kit that I was planning to build!

About 12 years ago, I owned a really nice 3 and rolled it all the time. Shortly after selling the 3, I was riding in a friend's 6a and asked if he minded if I tried a roll. Man, it was *really* slow. Downright ponderous compared to the 3! I kidded him for years about flying a family truckster.

I'll be seriously bummed if the 8 is slower than that 6 in roll!
 
RWoodard said:
That's interesting that the 6 is quicker than an an 8. Actually, it's worse than interesting because I have half of an 8 kit that I was planning to build!

About 12 years ago, I owned a really nice 3 and rolled it all the time. Shortly after selling the 3, I was riding in a friend's 6a and asked if he minded if I tried a roll. Man, it was *really* slow. Downright ponderous compared to the 3! I kidded him for years about flying a family truckster.

I'll be seriously bummed if the 8 is slower than that 6 in roll!
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I hate to be the one to bum you out Rod.....but we've got one of each, and yes, the -6 rolls quicker than the -8...and the -3 makes the -6 feel like a sedan.....

Just think of the -8 like a P-51...solid, and capable of everything!
 
Oh no, Paul!!!

Anybody want to buy a completed 8 tail with the wing kit about 20% complete?

:D
 
Not to steal this thread, but if my memory is correct, the G-200 rolled around 460 a second and the G-202 was down around 400 a second. Both were Incredibly fast.

I used to hang out with the guys that were building them at the Scappoose airport and was able to get a ride in the first 202 once and it was amazing fun. Better than any roller coaster!!!
 
Rod, the sure cure for roll rate envy is to roll a stock J-3 or a Rans S-7. You'll go home and hug your RV-8 ;)
 
DanH said:
Rod, the sure cure for roll rate envy is to roll a stock J-3 or a Rans S-7. You'll go home and hug your RV-8 ;)
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Or a flat bottom wing/no spade Citabria! I flew one a coupla months ago and did a few rolls; what a pig! It was like herding a dump truck around the sky...
 
jbDC9 said:
Or a flat bottom wing/no spade Citabria! I flew one a coupla months ago and did a few rolls; what a pig! It was like herding a dump truck around the sky...
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Did same thing in my neighbors Citabria - more like hogzilla! No thanks.
 
Roll Rate Perspective

The NATOPS published A-4 Skyhawk roll rate was 720 degress per second. Don't know of anyone who ever got there since there were inertial coupling limits that came into play. And no - you couldn't ever really trim the thing up steady in the roll axis.
 
My -7 seems to take 3 seconds for a 360 deg roll (120/sec) via the following method:-

Start at straight and level at about 135 kts IAS, pitch up to 15 degrees and check the stick. Then deflection to the buffet and back a bit. My RV has a buffet at full deflection and this slows the roll down. My old Yak-52 was about 120/sec as well (maybe a tad more). My RV-7 also rolls slower with a passenger, however, the super decathlon is a slow rolling truck by comparison.

The fastest rolling plane I ever flew was a Yak-54 with massive ailerons and two spades per side. I could not stop that thing at the 360 degree mark from a full deflection roll and my head would hit the canopy.
 
N355DW said:
I have a couple of an old IAC friends who are in your area. Dick Bevington is in Longmont. Dick has a Staudacher I think. I think Clyde Cable is nearby there, he had a Rebel, I remember seeing it for sale a couple of years ago. Great guys.
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Dick still has the Staudacher (or at least he did last fall). My 6 shared hangar space with his plane for a few weeks last year after he ferried my plane back here from San Diego. After he flew it back, he taught me how to fly it too.
 
As DanH says "go roll a Cub" ... then again, for a real truck feel, roll a Stearman. Trust me, it's all about energy management. The goal is not "how fast" but "how successful". Still, I wouldn't trade the experience :)

I bet Paul and Louise will have one of the best documented -3's around !
 
Rudder reduces buffet

Remag said:
My RV has a buffet at full deflection and this slows the roll down. .
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Strong use of the rudder starting after the 1st 120 degrees of roll and peaking with the 2nd wing up almost eliminates the buffet for me and gives the best roll rate in my experience.
Dale
RV6a
Now with dual Light Speed Ignitions (and 2 PC680s)
Superior IO-360
GRT HX (with no leans)
 
Never flown a g200 but as a g202 owner i can tell you it is inconprehensivelly fast....how fast! NECK BREAKING FAST! Bill finagins g202 had a mod to restrict aileron deflection and he claimed 360 with the mod. Giles g202 original specs say 500? Reality....no one needs to roll that fast but it is cool to have one capable and brag a little (like right now)

getting back to RV,s. I have rolled a RV8A a few times solo and with PIC in front. rolls were done at 120, 130 and 140 kia. All of them felt very similar to my old Pitts S2B. The RV felt very docile but i found myself applying lots of top rudder and elevator inputs to keep the roll FL. (Not abnormal at all)
 
N355DW said:
I think all manufacturers tend to exaggerate this a bit. I think Extra claims better than 300 degrees/ second. Maybe at Vne.:rolleyes:!
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Yup. I agree but we are generalizing all different extra wings into one category?

Damon..question. I noticed your signature says Pitts 12 sold 90% done, 90% to go......was it that complicated? Please tell me more about it? Imteresting signature!
 
mv031161 said:
Yup. I agree but we are generalizing all different extra wings into one category?

Damon..question. I noticed your signature says Pitts 12 sold 90% done, 90% to go......was it that complicated? Please tell me more about it? Imteresting signature!
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Hey Mitch, it's hard to see because of the size, but the avatar I am using shows my Pitts at the stage it was when I sold it. It's not that difficult to build really, the plans are very good, and there are wing kits and other make-it easier mods available. I cut and welded my own fuselage from the plans, but you can buy a finished one from the Kimball's.

The structure was pretty much done on mine, and the engine was hung, but no systems were hooked up. I can do structural stuff all day, but I need help when it comes to engines and electronics. So I was bugging the Kimball's to take it and finish it for me (I'm pretty sure I still would have come in well over the 51% by me even then) but they were busy with kits and M'Coupes and such. About the same time I got the bright idea to start an aerobatic ride and instructional business, and since I have no desire to do airshows anymore, there was no way I was going to make money with the 12, so I sold it and bought the 300L. Kept that for a few years, but the commercial insurance was killing me, then I got married and started worrying about liability for my wife if there was an accident, so I sold out.

Which brings me to the -7! I will finish this one, it is absolutely perfect for my mission profile, fast traveling with the wife, good baggage capability, and if I want some Sportsman acro, no problem. I am very happy with my choice, though I have yet to fly one!

I am not 100% sure but I think most Extra wings are the same airfoil and aileron design, at least between the 300 and the 300L, it's just lower on the fuselage on the -L (hence the designation "-L"). I'm told Walter did the for the view on landing, but I didn't think the 300 was so bad, and I like the performance and feel of a midwing better. Maybe the 300's were a little faster in roll than the -L's. Both are faster than my 230 was, but no plane comes close to the sheer delight of flying that 230! Best airplane ever!

I do believe the 330L has carbon fiber ribs instead of wood, and maybe some other differences that might increase the roll rate. Don't really know, but that is probably true. I'd like to fly one someday.

As someone in another post was talking about Stearman's, I used to fly safety pilot once in a while in a stock 220, non-inverted Stearman in Sportsman. I got my IAC Sportsman patch in that plane, just to see if I could! I remember we would start about 4000' AGL (took a looong time to get there!) and end right at 1500'. What a hoot, and the rolls really did take all day! Made you want to grunt like Tim Allen on Tool Time after flying a sequence in that plane!:D
 
Some pictures

Here are some pictures of the -12. Here is my avatar blown up:

DSC00166.jpg


And after it was finished it sold to a guy in California, who a few years later traded it to a local dealer for a Mooney. It showed up at a fly-in at our airpark last spring, and here it is, with me:

IMG_1093.jpg


And here is the sweetest ride ever!;) :

scan-1.jpg
 
Sorry for kidnaping the tread.......Love the looks of the 12! Thanks so much for sharing! I think thats a Laser or an early Edge design in your picture...(Braced tail) Let me know if ever around the charlotte area!
 
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Low Pass said:
I actually try to check mine on every flight!! Wind it to the right. Unwind it to the left... ;) ;)
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Good point - it is important to keep it balanced. If you aren't careful you can twist too much roll into the airframe and it can unwind at any time. ;-)
 
mv031161 said:
Sorry for kidnaping the tread.......Love the looks of the 12! Thanks so much for sharing! I think thats a Laser or an early Edge design in your picture...(Braced tail) Let me know if ever around the charlotte area!
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Extra 230 Mitch! Pat was drooling over the one for sale in FL.
 
kevinh said:
Good point - it is important to keep it balanced. If you aren't careful you can twist too much roll into the airframe and it can unwind at any time. ;-)
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That is funny. Actually, your brain can "wind up" if you dont do them both ways and pretty soon you will get "handed".
 
kevinh said:
Good point - it is important to keep it balanced. If you aren't careful you can twist too much roll into the airframe and it can unwind at any time. ;-)
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Yeah, yeah, that's what it was! I swear I couldn't help it!
 
Low Pass said:
I actually try to check mine on every flight!! Wind it to the right. Unwind it to the left... ;) ;)
Click to expand...


Hahaha! I actually would do this too sometimes! I always felt it was important not to wind it up too much one way!

Mitch - Walter designed the 230 after seeing the Laser fly. They are very similar, I have flown a Laser as well. The one in my picture was originally Patty Wagstaff's - N444PW - I bought it from Pompano Air Center in 1995. Took it to Jon Staudacher for some wing repairs and beefing up the spar with CF. I also recovered and repainted it. Sold it after I started the Model 12. Still miss it.
 
N355DW said:
Hahaha! I actually would do this too sometimes! I always felt it was important not to wind it up too much one way!

Mitch - Walter designed the 230 after seeing the Laser fly. They are very similar, I have flown a Laser as well. The one in my picture was originally Patty Wagstaff's - N444PW - I bought it from Pompano Air Center in 1995. Took it to Jon Staudacher for some wing repairs and beefing up the spar with CF. I also recovered and repainted it. Sold it after I started the Model 12. Still miss it.
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Nice...........! love it!

Let me ask you ........which is your favorite RV. Im in the process of dumping $$$$$ into an available RV8QB and take my sweet old time building it.......I flown a RV4 and it is tight for my 6.2 220# frame. I noticed you say you were bulding a 7...was that for any special reason (side by side maybe and flying with your wife or performance based)
 
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Anyone that is feeling their RV8 is slow on roll rate at approximately 120/

Just go fly a Citabria and experience the slow motion roll rate

When you return to your RV8 it will feel fast again.
 
NickAir said:
Anyone that is feeling their RV8 is slow on roll rate at approximately 120/

Just go fly a Citabria and experience the slow motion roll rate

When you return to your RV8 it will feel fast again.
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You would also have to workout for arm muscles! Such a light plane and such heavy roll control!? I honestly preferred to teach in the 150 aerobat rather then the Citabria.
 
Rhino889 said:
You would also have to workout for arm muscles! Such a light plane and such heavy roll control!? I honestly preferred to teach in the 150 aerobat rather then the Citabria.
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Yes, Rhino is spot on. The Citabria flown by small people sometimes does take two hands to maintain the stick in a roll. Spades make it like power steering.

RV's are sweet in roll. My -6 was faster than my -7, but the -7 is fine and a joy to roll compared to the Citabria.
 
mv031161 said:
Nice...........! love it!

Let me ask you ........which is your favorite RV. Im in the process of dumping $$$$$ into an available RV8QB and take my sweet old time building it.......I flown a RV4 and it is tight for my 6.2 220# frame. I noticed you say you were bulding a 7...was that for any special reason (side by side maybe and flying with your wife or performance based)
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I have not flown any RV's yet, so I can't say I have a favorite!

As for my project, I would have gone for an -8, but my wife did not like the tandem seating of the Extra, so side by side it is!
 
Roll rate

I did hear that a WWII F4U pilot at Reno air races did say the RV rolls nearly the same rate at the F4U. Cool factor.
 
I did full aileron roll deflections yesterday in the Giles and the film resulted @ 360 degrees =.80 second constantly in the cronometer. If each 90 Degrees = .20 easy to asume 450 degrees per second. Working on video!
 
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