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Grove brakes or Beringer brakes

G

Goran

Member
I ordered a finishing kit , and now I have to choose between Grove and Beringer brake kit. Beringer is twice the price and it comes with no tires? Is there RV-10's out there with Grove brake kit installed? Any issues with the Grove brakes? What would be a justification for more than twice the price of the Beringer? Is Beringer that much better?
 
Never had any issue with the Cleveland brakes that Van's supplies in the kit.
IMO, if you need more stopping power than that then the technique is bad, not the brakes.
 
I think you are paying a premium for a 9 pound weight loss.. (3 pounds per wheel savings I heard). Plus the tubeless tires claim to be more reliable?
 
Van's has changed the stock brakes over the years. The main gear in my kit came with Grove wheels and brakes -- no complaint whatsoever on either. For an additional data point I did swap out the original nose gear and axel for MATCO.
 
Auburntsts said:
Van's has changed the stock brakes over the years. The main gear in my kit came with Grove wheels and brakes -- no complaint whatsoever on either. For an additional data point I did swap out the original nose gear and axel for MATCO.
Click to expand...

Same as Todd, Grove wheels/brakes on mine. However, getting ready to go for the Antisplat sealed bearing mod for the nose with a new Matco NW 511.25 (correct wheel for the 5.00 x 5 tire). I rarely have any shimmy, but taxiing and landing should be much smoother.
 
Many years ago Van's switched from Cleveland to Grove Brakes as kit standard brakes.

Aircraft brakes are rated by how much heat they can absorb. They are designed for the worst case-- Accelerate/stop during takeoff based on maximum gross weight.

Landing technique isn't part of the criteria.

The following is the published brake kinetic energy (KE) ratings in 1000 ft- lbs.

Cleveland 185K
Grove 277K
Matco XLT 225K
Matco XT 337K
Matco XTE 450K

(I don't have the Beringer ratings.)

I know RV10 drivers that still have the original Clevelands and some that have changed to the Matco XLT. A few, went to the XT rotors because brake pads were cracking due to heat.
 
rmarshall234 said:
And quickly and efficiently transfer that heat into the surrounding air. A tightly cowled wheel pant will impede that process.
Click to expand...

Before everyone goes and pulls their wheel pants off... know that it's not by much.

Consider how long you're actually braking hard. The differential temperature of your brake disc and increasing heat rate is so significant over such a short period that the air cooling reduction by the pants is providing, while not insignificant, is not worth any effort to mitigate. Even more so, your wheel pants are open a the bottom, even on tight fitting pants, so as the air heats up, it expands out the opening minimizing the increase in temperature of the air.

Now, if you were driving long distances and braking with wheel pants, then the cooling would be a more significant factor.

For an easy experiment, next time you land, get out right after landing and put your hand on the wheel pants and note any warmth above ambient comparing the temp of your nose wheel pant to the mains. If you really want to be accurate, use a laser thermometer.

In the real world, I've not found any braking response difference between when wheel pants are on or off.

BTW, I have the Matco WI600XLT's and highly recommend them.
 
Flandy10 said:
Many years ago Van's switched from Cleveland to Grove Brakes as kit standard brakes.

Aircraft brakes are rated by how much heat they can absorb. They are designed for the worst case-- Accelerate/stop during takeoff based on maximum gross weight.

Landing technique isn't part of the criteria.

The following is the published brake kinetic energy (KE) ratings in 1000 ft- lbs.

Cleveland 185K
Grove 277K
Matco XLT 225K
Matco XT 337K
Matco XTE 450K

(I don't have the Beringer ratings.)

I know RV10 drivers that still have the original Clevelands and some that have changed to the Matco XLT. A few, went to the XT rotors because brake pads were cracking due to heat.
Click to expand...

Just to complete the picture, Beringer quoted me 500k ft lbs for rejected takeoff and 355k for "standard energy" whatever that is.
 
I remember as a child (late 50's or early 60's) watching someone adding air to a tubeless tire on a 172 (maybe a 182) using a basketball needle inflator through the side wall of the tire.

I know both of the FBO's planes later had tube type tires; I'm guessing they did not work so well if they went to the trouble of changing out the wheels to go to tube type tires.

If Cessna had some planes coming off the line 65 years ago with tubeless; they did not seem to catch on as superior for our light plane use.
 
serviceability and availability

I really liked the Beringer wheels and brakes. Forgetting about the cost I really liked their quality. But what drove my eventual decision for Grove was availability of parts and serviceability if I'm stuck somewhere. At the time I was building neither was great for Beringer for North America and the Caribbean so I went with Grove. As others mentioned heat dissipation was of concern if you are doing lots of training circuits so the standard from Vans at the time was out - looks like that may have improved as well.

I've been quite happy with the Groves all around. (Keep the pad alignment pins lubricated). Been flying for about a year now. Easily set up. Easily serviced.
Hope that helps.
 
Sidewall Inflation Tires 1950's-1960's

I remember as a child (late 50's or early 60's) watching someone adding air to a tubeless tire on a 172/182) using a basketball needle inflator through the side wall of the tire.

I know both of the FBO's planes later had tube type tires; I'm guessing they did not work so well if they went to the trouble of changing out the wheels to go to tube type tires.

Answer: "You are correct sir", but not about the tires.
Pilots would flat spot those tires, run them off the edges of concrete and other abuses the tires of today get.
Those Goodyear wheels had their inner halve cast & machined with teeth which the steel floating brake disk with it's own matching set if machined teeth fit in. The brake caliper was fixed with floating pucks. Floating, spinning, hot and cold parts wore each other out. The steel brake disks "survived" and the inner wheel halves were short lived.
Owner "what do you mean the tires and the wheel halves need to be replaced".
Better & longer service life wheels & brakes were the result.
Steven B
 
I am in a similar spot

I am deciding on brake options as well. My research indicates that VAN's selected the Grove brakes with a single cylinder, hence why we read posts reporting fade issues with hard braking. Although, many other posts dispute the fade complaint. Grove also makes a dual-cylinder brake (66-154) but of course, it would be an upgrade and cost more. I also understand that a modification to the pants attach bracket would be required to accommodate the extra cylinder. I am currently leaning toward the Matco option or alternatively staying with the stock system, not considering the Beringer option.
 
I recently upgraded the stock Cleveland brakes and wheels on my 2009 RV-10 to Matco (https://matcoals.com/product/whl-brk-wi600-rv-10-config/) on the recommendation of another RV-10 owner who is also an A&P IA and after the break-in period was done, I can (subjectively) say that the braking performance is noticeably improved.

Under normal conditions, I let the plane roll on the runway till it's at the end or till it's slow enough to taxi off using minimal braking but I had a (sort-of emergency) situation a few months ago where the stock brakes were just about good enough to get the plane stopped on the runway and decided it would be really nice to have more powerful brakes if I have a similar situation again.

If you do a search on VAF, this thread has come up multiple times. Vic Syracuse has also recommended this upgrade in past threads.
 
lappadoodle42 said:
What am I missing?...

Vans' stock Grove system is $2525: https://store.vansaircraft.com/u-00011-grove-wheels-brakes-6-x-6-00-u-00011.html

Matco appears to be half the cost, $1,220: https://matcoals.com/product/whl-brk-wi600-rv-10-config/

What components am I not incorporating in the Matco system? Can it really be an improvement AND half the cost?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
Folks with more knowledge about the Grove system can comment on the pricing for it.

I ordered the following SKUs from Matco to replace my stock Cleveland wheels & brakes:

WHL &BRK WI600 RV-10 CONFIG 2 $1,221.38
SPACER SLEEVE, AXLE RV-10 2 $106.08
WASHER, PRECISION 1.50 ID 0.030 THICK 2 $20.42

I don't know if all of them (or some additional parts) are needed if it's an original install.

FYI, I placed the order on 2/28 (it was delivered in late May) and the pre-tax total worked out to about $1347.
 
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Just received a quote from Grove on two piston caliper and wheel for $3269.00. The kit includes:

600 x 6 Wheel and Brake Kit
Includes 2 ea:
60-5M Wheel Assy
35-4M Caliper Assy
020-003 Torque Plate Assy

I don't know if that wheel assembly (60-5M) for a tubeless tires or not?
 
Strange Accounting

So my fuse kit was pushed to Jan-Feb but I'm thinking about the Beringer offer, Matco upgrade etc.

I was trying to figure out Van's math. Van's added $4,495 to my fuse order ($21,300 when I ordered) for a new fuse invoice total of $26,049.

Fuse kits are currently listed for $22,835 on the site. More than $3k less than my fuse kit total with wheels and brakes.

Maybe I missed it, but did anyone see finish kit costs go down by $4,495 to reflect the fact that the wheels and brakes have moved to the fuse?
 
I can confirm that my finish kit reduced in price by the 4,495.00 for the wheel kit and that the Fuse increased by the same amount.
 
SPB W10 said:
Those Goodyear wheels had their inner halve cast & machined with teeth which the steel floating brake disk with it's own matching set if machined teeth fit in. The brake caliper was fixed with floating pucks. Floating, spinning, hot and cold parts wore each other out. The steel brake disks "survived" and the inner wheel halves were short lived.
Click to expand...

Beringer floats the disk in a similar manner, but with little wear inserts bolted to the wheel. I assume they can be purchased for eventual replacement, or perhaps they are supplied with new disks.

HighFlying said:
My research indicates that VAN's selected the Grove brakes with a single cylinder, hence why we read posts reporting fade issues with hard braking. Although, many other posts dispute the fade complaint. Grove also makes a dual-cylinder brake (66-154) but of course, it would be an upgrade and cost more.
Click to expand...

Fade or the lack of fade is a function of disk mass; the disk is the primary heat storage component. Want less fade? Generally that means installing thicker disks.

Increasing cylinder diameter or number of cylinders affects fade performance only indirectly. A larger cylinder will apply more pad pressure for the same master cylinder effort. It will result in more braking power, but the disk will reach a high temperature more quickly. Next beer-thirty, remind me to tell the story of arriving at the old Road Atlanta's Nissan Bridge with no brakes because I had not yet learned that lesson ;)
 
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