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Grove 6.00-6 Wheels and Brakes?

DanH

Legacy Member
Mentor
Bought a lot on a grass strip. Tend to use a lot of grass strips anyway. I've long considered upsizing the tires, wheels, brakes, and pants on my -8.

Yes, I know about the 380-150-5 tires. 15.25" diameter vs 17.5" for 6.00's, same width. I'll have to change the wheel pants either way, and 6.00 tires generally cost less.

Comments welcome. Here's my concern...

Grove is recommending the 65-211 kit, which comes with 31-5M dual piston calipers. They're rated 3947 in-lbs braking torque. I'm afraid they may be a bit too powerful.

https://www.groveaircraft.com/600series.html

As most here would agree, the standard Clevelands are a bit undersize, which is not all bad. On rollout, you can stand on them pretty hard without lifting the tail. I like that. Unfortunately, I can't find a brake torque rating for the Clevelands, which would make comparison easy.

Grove recommends a 50-201 kit as their 5" choice on a tailwheel -8, at 2364 in-lbs.

https://www.groveaircraft.com/rvwheel.html
https://www.groveaircraft.com/5series.html

If I use it as a proxy for the Clevelands, and assume required brake torque (thus brake feel) is proportional to tire rolling radius, the comparable 6" wheel and brake assembly would need a brake torque of around 2900 in-lbs. A reasonable choice might be a 65-202 kit at 3335 in lbs, a caliper with a single 1.625" piston.

So, less powerful single piston caliper (3335 in-bs), a slight increase from the current Clevelands? Or the more powerful (3947 in-lbs) dual piston? We're really talking about feel here, the toe pressure required for a given decel rate. Kinetic energy, a function of disc mass, is the same for both setups.

Anyone out there running a 6" Grove wheel set? If so, which calipers do you have and how do you like 'em?
 
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tire and tube prices

Be careful on the assumption that 600x6 tires are generally cheaper.

For Michelin Air 6-ply, the 380x150-5 is $268 vs $258 for the 600x6,

BUT.....

Keeping our C-182 in tires is very pricey. Its not the tires, but the tubes.

A straight valve-stem Goodyear 600x6 tube is $130 or so. A bent valve stem Goodyear 600x6 tube is $260. Unfortunately, ours needs the bent valve stem.

I don't know why they cost so much more, maybe it is a production volume thing. But you would think that tires and tubes for C-182 would be just about the highest volume you could hope for.

So - check which tube type the Grove wheels use.
 
EDIT

Regarding the Matco RV-14 6.00x6 kit from Sky Designs, previously I wrote:

...the -14 kit was the same as the -10 kit, except for having 1.25" bearings. The -10 kit appears to have triple puck calipers with waaaay more brake torque (6441 in-lbs) than I would want.

That's not quite correct. George Happ at Matco tells me the SD kit for the -14 uses an externally identical triple puck caliper, but it has three 1.25 pucks rather than 1.5" pucks. Caliper part number is WHLB5T, rated at 4266 in-lb torque at 450 psi and 337K Ft-lb energy.

Sure wish it was available in a two-puck version.
 
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Yes, traded notes with Ken last week. He wrote the -14 kit was the same as the -10 kit, except for having 1.25" bearings. The -10 kit appears to have triple puck calipers with waaaay more brake torque (6441 in-lbs) than I would want.

https://matcoals.com/product/whl-brk-wi600-rv-10-config/

Ken has an -8 package, but the single puck caliper used with it only offers 1988 in-lbs. The kit in the photo you posted is single puck.

Roger that! I didn’t realize that it was a triple puck system. It shouldn’t have any problem stopping the -14. 😜
 
Bought a lot on a grass strip. Tend to use a lot of grass strips anyway. I've long considered upsizing the tires, wheels, brakes, and pants on my -8.

Yes, I know about the 380-150-5 tires. 15.25" diameter vs 17.5" for 6.00's, same width. I'll have to change the wheel pants either way, and 6.00 tires generally cost less.

Being a cheapskate pilot I opted for 380-150 tires and stock brakes for my 14 and couldn't be happier with that choice. The tires fit nicely into the standard pants, therefore no performance penalty.
90% of my landings is into different sorts of country side strips or just unprepared pastures
 
Dan,
I use grass strips a lot here in UK/Europe. From my perspective the 380x150 tyres (ok, tires) are a good choice as you don't have to buy new wheels and the existing pants can be used, just mounted slightly higher. Definitely the 500x5 tyres are at their limit (or possibly beyond) at 1800lb on soft-ish grass. Using grass predominantly will mean it will take years to wear out the covers so cost of the tyres is less important.
It is reasonably straight forward to go for a higher spec brake caliper, and also a thicker disc if needed, on the 500x5 wheels - have a look at what the Extras use. I don't have access to an Extra parts catalogue until next week, certainly worthwhile in their case but they are landing at 80kt. Landing distance is more about touching down at the correct speed and having a c/s prop. On grass the stopping capacity of your brakes is less important than on tarmac.
Pete
 
George Happ at Matco tells me the Sky Designs 6.00 kit for the -14 uses a triple puck caliper with the same form factor as the caliper for the -10, but it has three 1.25 pucks rather than 1.5" pucks. Caliper part number is WHLB5T, rated at 4266 in-lb torque at 450 psi and 337K Ft-lb energy. Sure wish they made that caliper in a two-puck.

Grove is recommending a 65-211 kit, 3947 in-lbs and 170K.

I was playing around for review yesterday, hard braking on asphalt with the standard 199-102 Clevelands and 5" tires, about 60 knots at touchdown. With the larger diameter of the 380x150's, I would want thicker disks to reduce fade; the small Clevelands are only 117K energy. I once did a disk thickness upgrade on an 8A, and it improved braking in the latter stage of a rollout, where the standard disks require more pedal pressure for the same decel rate. The 164-09900 disks offer a 155K energy rating.
 
George Happ at Matco tells me the Sky Designs 6.00 kit for the -14 uses a triple puck caliper with the same form factor as the caliper for the -10, but it has three 1.25 pucks rather than 1.5" pucks. Caliper part number is WHLB5T, rated at 4266 in-lb torque at 450 psi and 337K Ft-lb energy. Sure wish they made that caliper in a two-puck.

Grove is recommending a 65-211 kit, 3947 in-lbs and 170K.

I was playing around for review yesterday, hard braking on asphalt with the standard 199-102 Clevelands and 5" tires, about 60 knots at touchdown. With the larger diameter of the 380x150's, I would want thicker disks to reduce fade; the small Clevelands are only 117K energy. I once did a disk thickness upgrade on an 8A, and it improved braking in the latter stage of a rollout, where the standard disks require more pedal pressure for the same decel rate. The 164-09900 disks offer a 155K energy rating.

It appears as though the RV-14 three 1.25” Matco setup is relatively close to what Groove is recommending (4266 VS. 3974) in-lbs. A persons foot can obviously adjust to how much pressure is needed to apply to the break pedal, or am I missing something here?
 
Have you considered using the 3 puck calipers, then playing around with the actuation arm at the pedal to get a different leverage and feel?

Or maybe using a larger bore master cylinder with the 3 puck calipers?

Many ways to skin this feline.
 
Have you considered using the 3 puck calipers, then playing around with the actuation arm at the pedal to get a different leverage and feel?

Or maybe using a larger bore master cylinder with the 3 puck calipers?

Many ways to skin this feline.

That’s a very good point!
 
Have you considered using the 3 puck calipers, then playing around with the actuation arm at the pedal to get a different leverage and feel?
Or maybe using a larger bore master cylinder with the 3 puck calipers?

Sure, both. And working from the other direction, Matco offers "intensifier" kits (a smaller master cylinder bore) to increase line pressure with the single piston calipers.

Right now I'm inclined toward a Grove 65-202 (3335 and 170K), but I'd like to hear more about why they recommend the -211.

It appears as though the RV-14 three 1.25” Matco setup is relatively close to what Groove is recommending (4266 VS. 3974) in-lbs. A persons foot can obviously adjust to how much pressure is needed to apply to the break pedal, or am I missing something here?

You're not missing anything. I'm just looking at the choices and reporting here.
 
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Motorcycle pads - would they fit?

I changed to a sintered pads on my K1200RS - holy **** I know what brakes are now! I’ll bet you could confiscate a set of those to see what happens? Hmmm…..
 
As Paul Harvey said, the rest of the story...

I had decided to pull the trigger on a set of Grove 6.00 wheels and brakes, only to learn they were back ordered 3 months or more. Might still do it, but the immediate need was a June trip to the northeast with a long list of grass strips.

So, I ordered a set of 380-150-5's, and a pair of Rapco RA164-09900 disks.

The 380's are obvious, but being an inch larger in diameter as compared to 5.00-5's, they stress the standard brakes more (i.e. require more pedal pressure) for the same rate of deceleration. The standard Cleveland 164-01700 disks are already marginal, with a kinetic energy rating of 117,500 ft-lbs, so they tend to fade in the later stages of rollout. The 09900's are thicker (0.275" vs 0.167" minimum), thus the kinetic energy rating is higher (155,000 ft-lbs), and they don't heat and fade. End result? Initial braking power is less, but final braking power seems to be better. I'd like a little more, and may shorten the arm at the back of the pedals.

My original wheelpants were installed to be at minimum height, covering as much tire as possible with speed as the goal. Unfortunately, that meant they would not go on over the 380's, thus I needed new pants. I had a set on the shelf, and got them mounted before the trip, complete with some remarkably ugly $1 spray can black paint over unfinished glass. This week I've been working that ugly glass into svelte shapeliness. Probably post something on that elsewhere. Lot of work really...and I like fiberglass.

The surprising fact at the end of the story? Tires cost money, and brake disks ain't cheap, but the big forehead slap turned out to be the cost of paint. You see, way back around 2007 Ms. Patti and I decided on a particular off-white pearl. It was pricy at nearly $500 per gallon, but affordable for a DIY guy painting his own. This week, that PPG pearl was $334 for a quart.

Note to self...primary colors next time.
 
Dan, I did this years ago to my 6A and they work great. Pads last longer too....

https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=153627

Shims that I used were arbor shims from McMaster.

Parts list.... https://vansairforce.net/community/showpost.php?p=1295191&postcount=36

Hi Warren.

The flat leg on the -8 is even easier. No need to shim the wheel position on the axle so the thicker disk will clear the A-model's wheelpant bracket. Tailwheel 8's have the bracket on the inside of the leg.

Back when I did mine, I paid $75 per disc.....:eek:

IIRC, Spruce is now quoting over $1000 for an official Cleveland 199-93 upgrade kit...two 099 disks, four bolts, and two caliper shims. It's currently less than $500 to order Rapco's, drill your own bolts, and make the shims.
 

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