Van's Air Force
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Gross weight increase.
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So... Limits were exceeded, and the airplane was deformed as a result... Which is expected. One would hope that the rest of the structure was inspected as well following such an event. But that was back in the hairy days of old when pilots were bolder than they were careful.
Thankfully pilots in general are now a lot more careful about their aircraft, and only the bold do reckless things in them. Up until COVID, if you tracked the number of performing aerobatic pilots in North America who died each year during practise or performance, it was about 5% of the total. I tracked it for a number of years and was shocked how high the numbers were. Not all were structural failure, but many were certainly due to their boldness outlasting their caution.
I divide the aerobatic accidents into before Sean Tucker and after Sean. Sean managed to survive some pretty scary things including a total failure of elevator control. Had that failure happened during his intended practice flight it likely would have been fatal.
Sean survived because he was actually very disciplined, practiced a lot and maintained his airplanes better than anyone else in that era. Too many of the pilots that tried to do what Sean did are no longer with us. Some were VERY good, just not as good as Sean.
The number of structural failures in aerobatics is relatively small. Most failures are simply pilot error. When instruction is involved, in many case we will never know the exact cause. I just spoke with a pilot that instructed in the Extra 300 for 500 hours. One of his students had a seisure and held a rudder pedal to the stop. After several scary minutes the studend recovered and released the rudder pedal.
Some do not even involve aerobatics. Early on Sean lost an airplane when the ferry pilot got in the clouds and crashed fatally. Several other examples of similar scenarios.
Sean survived because he was actually very disciplined, practiced a lot and maintained his airplanes better than anyone else in that era. Too many of the pilots that tried to do what Sean did are no longer with us. Some were VERY good, just not as good as Sean.
The number of structural failures in aerobatics is relatively small. Most failures are simply pilot error. When instruction is involved, in many case we will never know the exact cause. I just spoke with a pilot that instructed in the Extra 300 for 500 hours. One of his students had a seisure and held a rudder pedal to the stop. After several scary minutes the studend recovered and released the rudder pedal.
Some do not even involve aerobatics. Early on Sean lost an airplane when the ferry pilot got in the clouds and crashed fatally. Several other examples of similar scenarios.
I learned spins as a student pilot in 1958. I continued to do spins for years. I taught myself basic aerobatics in a Cassutt Racer in 1970. A few years later I got two hours of dual in a Pitts S2A. The operator at that time would not allow flat spins.
In 1975 i started flying the Pitts S1S. I completed my homebuilt S1S in 1977 and flew that airplane for 1000 hours. 1500 plus hours in other Pitts's and a variety of other aerobatic airplanes.
I taught myself upright and inverted flat spins in the Pitts. My first inverted flat spins started at 12'000' AGL As I gained experience my "golden rule" was recovery above 1500 AGL
When I first flew the Pitts there were pilots fatally spinning into the ground on a regular basis. Although the rate of fatal spins has decreased significantly, a recent training accident in one of the new two seat airplanes appears to be an inadvertent flat spin. (Operating too close to the ground)
Around 1993 my supervisor said to me: "John Doe will be here tomorrow to fly with you in the Sukhoi. He is a very experienced aerobatic pilot. However he is self trained I have found that self trained pilots don't know much about spins."
In our briefing JD said "my airplane will not flat spin." My reply was I am certain it will. We did upright and inverted flat spins. He took a several day break and he went home. When he came back he said "you are right, my airplane will flat spin."
Very early in my Pitts era I discovered that if I felt a maneuver was questionable- center the rudder and very "diplomatically" push or pull the the closest horizon. Using that method the only time I ever lost control when I was sole manipulator of the controls was learning outside snaps on a 45 degree climbing line.
A writer for a war bird magazine said of a fatal accident: pilot exceeded his resume.
In 1975 i started flying the Pitts S1S. I completed my homebuilt S1S in 1977 and flew that airplane for 1000 hours. 1500 plus hours in other Pitts's and a variety of other aerobatic airplanes.
I taught myself upright and inverted flat spins in the Pitts. My first inverted flat spins started at 12'000' AGL As I gained experience my "golden rule" was recovery above 1500 AGL
When I first flew the Pitts there were pilots fatally spinning into the ground on a regular basis. Although the rate of fatal spins has decreased significantly, a recent training accident in one of the new two seat airplanes appears to be an inadvertent flat spin. (Operating too close to the ground)
Around 1993 my supervisor said to me: "John Doe will be here tomorrow to fly with you in the Sukhoi. He is a very experienced aerobatic pilot. However he is self trained I have found that self trained pilots don't know much about spins."
In our briefing JD said "my airplane will not flat spin." My reply was I am certain it will. We did upright and inverted flat spins. He took a several day break and he went home. When he came back he said "you are right, my airplane will flat spin."
Very early in my Pitts era I discovered that if I felt a maneuver was questionable- center the rudder and very "diplomatically" push or pull the the closest horizon. Using that method the only time I ever lost control when I was sole manipulator of the controls was learning outside snaps on a 45 degree climbing line.
A writer for a war bird magazine said of a fatal accident: pilot exceeded his resume.
Back to RV limitations:
I have seen both 2600 and 2700 as the total number of RV6's built. There has never been a structural break up of a built to plans RV6.
There have been several RV7 fatal structure failures. The one near Atlantic City was non builder who was trying to learn aileron rolls. Some of those attempts were observed from a friend flying nearby. Repeated split S exits from inverted flight. On the accident flight the other airplane was not present. Ground radar indicated excessive speeds. The final report identifies the rudder as the first part to fail.
When I was instructing aerobatics I would always start a briefing by asking the trainee what they had been flying and what their goals were. A gentleman, [perhaps late 60's, had tried to teach himself rolls in his RV6. He admitted to stopping the roll inverted, pulling thru to exit, probably did not reduce power until almost too late. Almost 300 m/h and an unknown g load. It is my opinion after reading RV7 accident reports that doing that in an RV7 will be fatal.
The irony of that I introduced people to aerobatics in the Pitts S2B as follows.
This was the first aerobatic maneuver.
Some were non pilots.
Roll the airplane from 30 degree bank in one direction to 30 degree bank in the other diferction
Keep increasing the bank angle to at least 60 degrees. A touch of coordinated rudder.
Next from cruise speed or slightly above pull the nose up at least 20 degrees above the horizon.
Repeat several times and then start releasing the stick as soon as the climb angle is established.
Now establish the climb, immediately release the stick and put your finger on the right side of the stick and push with your finger.
Success rate of well over 90% on first attempt even for non pilots. About 15 minutes learn the basics of aileron rolls in the Pitts. This was the first aerobatic maneuver. I never demonstrated it. Simply talked the trainee thru it. Then proceed to hands on the stick rolls and then spins. Any sign of airsickness we landed. Two years of one day off a month. never had anyone puke in the airplane. A couple of events just after getting out.
I had exchanged some emails with the Atlantic City pilot but never discussed aerobatics.
I have seen both 2600 and 2700 as the total number of RV6's built. There has never been a structural break up of a built to plans RV6.
There have been several RV7 fatal structure failures. The one near Atlantic City was non builder who was trying to learn aileron rolls. Some of those attempts were observed from a friend flying nearby. Repeated split S exits from inverted flight. On the accident flight the other airplane was not present. Ground radar indicated excessive speeds. The final report identifies the rudder as the first part to fail.
When I was instructing aerobatics I would always start a briefing by asking the trainee what they had been flying and what their goals were. A gentleman, [perhaps late 60's, had tried to teach himself rolls in his RV6. He admitted to stopping the roll inverted, pulling thru to exit, probably did not reduce power until almost too late. Almost 300 m/h and an unknown g load. It is my opinion after reading RV7 accident reports that doing that in an RV7 will be fatal.
The irony of that I introduced people to aerobatics in the Pitts S2B as follows.
This was the first aerobatic maneuver.
Some were non pilots.
Roll the airplane from 30 degree bank in one direction to 30 degree bank in the other diferction
Keep increasing the bank angle to at least 60 degrees. A touch of coordinated rudder.
Next from cruise speed or slightly above pull the nose up at least 20 degrees above the horizon.
Repeat several times and then start releasing the stick as soon as the climb angle is established.
Now establish the climb, immediately release the stick and put your finger on the right side of the stick and push with your finger.
Success rate of well over 90% on first attempt even for non pilots. About 15 minutes learn the basics of aileron rolls in the Pitts. This was the first aerobatic maneuver. I never demonstrated it. Simply talked the trainee thru it. Then proceed to hands on the stick rolls and then spins. Any sign of airsickness we landed. Two years of one day off a month. never had anyone puke in the airplane. A couple of events just after getting out.
I had exchanged some emails with the Atlantic City pilot but never discussed aerobatics.
rocketman1988
Well Known Member
Is there some reason this is turning into a Pitts, Extra, etc. discussion? This is, after all, an RV forum.
My last post was about RV's except for the aerobatic comments. That is because I taught aerobatics mostly in the Pitts. Regarding the Atlantic City RV7 fatal I sincerely believe that if I had the opportunity to give that pilot 15 minutes of training on how to do an aileron roll there is an excellent possibility he might still be alive. I will continue to discuss safety in any EAB aircraft unless Doug tells me to stop.
rocketman1988
Well Known Member
Wow.
Walt
Well Known Member
I for one enjoy your posts, please continue. I’d love to go fly with you someday!
There are lots of different accidents that if the pilot had 15 minutes of specific training related to something in the accident chain, the accident may not have happened.
Always training and always learning is a good practice for any pilot.
But, it seems this whole thread was originally about flying, and RV above design recommended gross weight. It has now drifted far from that.
rocketman1988
Well Known Member
You got that right!
I think this one ran its course….
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