What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Gated Access

apkp777

Well Known Member
Suppose you have gated access at your class D airport where you keep your airplane. And now suppose that one day some guy piggy back's your access and drives around you without even a wave. Then a second time same dude piggy backs you, but this time you stop him and asks if he has a badge. He proceeds to tell you to kiss .. ...! and speeds away (in his Jaguar)


What would you do?
 
I would call the police, or someone to hassle him a bit. If he can't be bothered to wait a minute to use his badge. maybe an hour or so with the authorities will bother him enough to stop piggy backing.

How is he able to piggy back through the gate? Do you stop and wait for the gate to close? Is it like 3 car widths and you can't prevent him from driving around?
 
I would call the police, or someone to hassle him a bit. If he can't be bothered to wait a minute to use his badge. maybe an hour or so with the authorities will bother him enough to stop piggy backing.

How is he able to piggy back through the gate? Do you stop and wait for the gate to close? Is it like 3 car widths and you can't prevent him from driving around?

You have to pull about 10' past the gate to cross the gate opening sensor (for exiting). The gate is also about 20ft wide, it's hard to block the whole opening. You are supposed to stop of course, which I do, but this guy just drove around me.

I should add that not too long ago the gated access was made very strict because some insane lady piggy backed someone, sped 90 miles per hour down the taxi way and ramp, nearly hitting a jet then crashed into a fence. The violation for allowing someone to piggy back you is a 30 suspension of access.
 
You have to pull about 10' past the gate to cross the gate opening sensor (for exiting). The gate is also about 20ft wide, it's hard to block the whole opening. You are supposed to stop of course, which I do, but this guy just drove around me.

I should add that not too long ago the gated access was made very strict because some insane lady piggy backed someone, sped 90 miles per hour down the taxi way and ramp, nearly hitting a jet then crashed into a fence. The violation for allowing someone to piggy back you is a 30 suspension of access.



Then report him the the airport people. I'm sure the penalty for piggy backing is the same for allowing someone to piggy back.

Also let them know the sensor needs adjusting.

Is the gate video monitored?
 
Then report him the the airport people. I'm sure the penalty for piggy backing is the same for allowing someone to piggy back.

Also let them know the sensor needs adjusting.

Is the gate video monitored?

No video monitoring. I did contact the airport manager (who is a friend of mine) and he will talk to the fellow and explain the rules.

I am still curious how others would handle this situation. The question I have is, "where do us pilots make a stand when it comes to airport security?" Clearly in my situation, had I known this guy, I would just wave him through. However, I don't know him.
 
You will probably lose you Badge and have to deal with TSA here in Savannah if you let anybody piggyback off you. Call the cops. Especially after the kiss comment.
 
he said the bad words, i'd make a call expressing your feelings of dismay at his poor behavior and possible anger problems.
 
I have the same problem here at my class D airport. Our gate is small enough that I can prevent tailgaters. My hangar is also very close to the gate and I'll frequently have people get out of their cars and yell at me and ask me for the gate access code (which rotates). If I know the person I'll give them the code. If not, I just say I don't know it and leave them to wonder how I actually got through it. Of course these people usually end up tailgating through the gate.

I challenged the driver of a suspicious unmarked van one day that got through. It happened to be a local news channel doing a "story" about "small airport security".
 
My opinion

Some may disagree with my viewpoint but I think that these (two) guys need to be EDUCATED. Has there been an organized effort to educate those who use the airport? Maybe not? Generally speaking, I'm not for calling in the authorities but you mention two occurrences that are, in my opinion, in need of some sort of intervention by the proper authority.

Airport safety is every ones responsibility and must be taken seriously. Blowing through an airport security gate (for whatever reason) is not a good idea and should cause the person to have to immediately explain himself to whomever is in charge of the security at the airport.

I would have made a call to whomever that is and let them do their job. The proper authorities would have responded and would have given him a chance to explain himself. If there was a good reason to blow through the gate then he could have explained it. Either way, he would have had the benefit of some education about airport security and his responsibilities therein. Hopefully that would be the end of it but no need to sugar coat it, he knows who made the call.

We have to stand up for what's right. I'm glad that you made a call. The guy will never be your friend anyway.
 
No authority

He crossed the line when he spoke that way to you.

I had a similar experience with a long time airport know-it-all. I followed him to his hangar and let him know what I thought of him. It was amazing to see the difference in his behavior... in his truck he was a tough guy. With me in his face he cowered like a dog. No, I did not threaten him or anything like that. He just never had anyone call him on his behavior before.

At that airport (also Class D), they stated that you could not let anyone tailgate and you were responsible to not let anyone in. However, no one ever deputized me. You cannot have responsibility without authority. The only thing you can do is write down a tag number and make a phone call. You have no power nor the authority to do anything else. Confrontation can get you hurt.

Don
 
If I don't know them, or see a security card, I'll do my best to make sure they don't get through. So far, I've not had a problem. But if I do, I guess I'll just have to chase them down.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
I was very polite when I asked the fellow for his badge. I simply said "do you have a badge, because you are not supposed to piggy back" His first response what "who the .... are you?" I said, "hey, I just want to see your badge". I wasn't being a jerk or rude. Once he told me to "kiss my ..." I was mad. I don't think I overreacted, but I really think it brings to my mind that we do have a responsibility to keep our airports secure. I do feel bad that the guy probably hates my guts. I am sure in a different circumstance we'd get along just fine. However, as a lesson to us all, don't put someone in an awkward position and tail gate them through the gate without at least some descent human communication. A simple, "hey, I am sorry, I forgot my ID and I appreciate you letting me in". No problem!

Not to mention that my son, whom I am giving flight lessons (and airport security lesson) to, was in my car.
 
Pick up the phone and dial 911. Tell them some guy you didn?t recognized followed you through the gate and when you challenged him, he swore at you and sped off. Make it clear on the 911 tape that you are concerned about the security of the airport and airspace.

The cops will deal with the idiot.
 
Sure he's rude, but I wouldn't worry about the piggybacking thing. Too many gates and fences at airports are one of the things wrong in aviation today.
 
Maybe too many...

Sure he's rude, but I wouldn't worry about the piggybacking thing. Too many gates and fences at airports are one of the things wrong in aviation today.

...but in this case there is a penalty - check post #3

"The violation for allowing someone to piggy back you is a 30 suspension of access."

Just call whoever deals with security and report it...
 
Security

Sure he's rude, but I wouldn't worry about the piggybacking thing. Too many gates and fences at airports are one of the things wrong in aviation today.

If you are dealing with an airport with any kind of scheduled (airline) service, you should worry a lot about piggybacking or any other violation of the security rules. Like it or not, these things are taken seriously and not just at a local level. In fact, reporting a violation is a help to the airport because the TSA is watching their performance.

John Clark ATP, CFI
Commissioner, Santa Barbara Municipal Airport
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Piggybacking

I'm not totally up on these regulations but if I'm not mistaken, this is a federal issue. I keep my RV-7A at St. Pete-Clearwater which is gate controlled also with a passcard. Once upon a time about a year ago, some ding dong was there with a friend and decided that the perimeter road around the runway was too long and so went across the runway. The end result was that we all took remedial training in airport procedures. I think in this age of heightened security, the airport authority has the responsibility to confront and educate this guy. Does he even have access or is he just coming in of his own accord piggybacking on you and who knows who else?

Good luck with this jerk. He sounds like trouble to your airport and could ruin it for all of you.

Bill Near
 
... The end result was that we all took remedial training in airport procedures...

Bill's comment sums up my reason for suggesting you call at the minimum the airport authority. I'm not sure about 911 unless that's the policy. If we don't abide by the rules of the airport (as stupid as they may get) the only way they are going to fix the problem (in today's political climate) is

A) Make more unreasonable rules to make our lives less enjoyable.
b) Remove our access completely, which makes our lives VERY less enjoyable.

I would have called the airport authority on the first occurance, so that hopefully the second one wouldn't have happened, or at least the second time THAT guy's life would be less enjoyable. Which also means that hopefully he wouldn't be in an airplane any where near me, because I'd bet he doesn't follow the rules up there any better than down on the ground. That makes my life more enjoyable. :)
 
Options

I hate to report anyone to the feds, but given their penchant for what amounts to collective punishment and the real security issues involved, it would not have been wrong to do so already.

Now that he has declared himself, another option is the next time you see him behind you near the gate, park in front of the access entry fixture without entering anything leaving the gate closed. Walk back their and tell him that you are going to promptly dial 911 if he piggybacks today or anytime in the future. Then just roll on through and immediately dial them if he does.

If you would like a good fight and are willing to take the risk of finding our if he has any spine behind his mouth, you could just sit there and block the pad and do nothing until he comes to you or drives away. Not the most mature or safe approach but would be fun to watch and see what he does.

But I don't think you owe him that chance to keep himself out of trouble given that you already tried to speak to him once. I would just put 911 in my phone and push the dial button the moment he rolled in. Second conversations with jerks are more likely to escalate. It is really the only logical choice now. You might even want to have an informal conversation with security ahead of time and let them know so that they will know it isn't the first time but you didn't call them before because he caught you by surprise.
 
...but in this case there is a penalty - check post #3

"The violation for allowing someone to piggy back you is a 30 suspension of access."

Just call whoever deals with security and report it...

Well then, perhaps a call to security is warranted, but only to cover your own "6". If someone wants to break the rules and piggyback, I'm certainly not going to hurl my body in front of their car to prevent it.

However, I completely reject the idea that the world is a safer place because there is now a fence around my local airport - "preventing" access to all those dangerous 172's and Bonanza's. The "incident" that started this thread sounds like an encounter with a jerk, nothing more, nothing less...
 
Last edited:
If you are dealing with an airport with any kind of scheduled (airline) service, you should worry a lot about piggybacking or any other violation of the security rules.
First a data point- the airport in question has no airline service and is strictly a GA airport (class D contract tower.)

Second, some opinion- since this is not an airline airport, it is ridiculous to apply the same level of security standards to it. Sure, this guy acted like a jerk. Maybe he is a jerk, or maybe he was just having a bad hair day (which we all do) which was exacerbated by having to deal with this TSA sponsored nonsense at his airport.

Call 911 on the guy? Geez. If he was about to go flying while drunk or doing something really unsafe, then sure. For a minor violation of a silly rule though? This environment that has been created where we feel compelled to drop a dime on our neighbors in the name of "security" strikes me as a little too 1984-ish for my taste.

Just my $.02, but someone had to say it.
 
My airport has little security. We have had criminals come in and steal fuel, trailers, break into hangars, along with taxiway/runway incursions.

My goal is to gate the primary access and improve fencing to prevent these problems.
 
...My airport has little security. We have had criminals come in and steal fuel, trailers, break into hangars, along with taxiway/runway incursions...

This happens at new car dealerships too, but then again, the dealerships don't want to discourage "new customers" from visiting by puting up fences, signs and gates...

...Seems like those of us in the dying GA world could learn a thing or two about marketing.

I vote for less fences!
 
All I know is if you stop someone from entering behind you, and they were a real terrorist, you'd be the first one killed. Until they let me pull a gun on someone at the gate, they can come on through. I'll just be watching to see where they go and what they do. Lighten up a little they're (the TSA) making us all a little paranoid.
 
All I know is if you stop someone from entering behind you, and they were a real terrorist, you'd be the first one killed. Until they let me pull a gun on someone at the gate, they can come on through. I'll just be watching to see where they go and what they do. Lighten up a little they're (the TSA) making us all a little paranoid.

not really, if they are a real terrorist they wouldn't blow their cover on something like entering the airport. They'd slink off and try the next gate/ dude they can piggyback. they want the big surprise to be the impact of the airplane on their target, it gets hard to do that if they are apprehended before hand or shot down by jets after the alert call goes out due to homicide at the gate.
 
not really, if they are a real terrorist they wouldn't blow their cover on something like entering the airport. They'd slink off and try the next gate/ dude they can piggyback. they want the big surprise to be the impact of the airplane on their target, it gets hard to do that if they are apprehended before hand or shot down by jets after the alert call goes out due to homicide at the gate.

I agree. But they would possibly incapacitate the piggybacker once he reached his hangar and was out of sight. Then they would get on with what they had planned.

However, the piggybackee is very much more likely to be some impatient dude who lacks respect for other people and just lives in his or her own self important world. These breed of people live in every country and come from all walks of life. It seems when manners were being taught at school or at home (if ever that was the case), then they were obviously asleep at the time.

My advice is to let the guy through. Do not try and stop them. Just inform the appropriate people.
 
We are perfectly capable of "policing" ourselves, but no one seems to believe--or allow--that. Someone doing that at our airport would most likely at least get a glimpse of something 9mm, legal as can be. Many years ago a manager followed an aircraft he believed stolen across two states to apprehend the thief. Turned out to be a repo man... It is a shame more places can't see the logic in all this--we aren't without abilities, only without authority. In this case, I WOULD speak to this individual, and he would listen to either me or the police.

Bob Kelly
 
KBZN

Here in Bozeman, we do have airline ops, so if you don't call in behavior like this in you can get into trouble yourself. The last time it happened that I know of, the person in the car that was passed called it into airport security and the passer got hit with a $5000 fine, later mitigated down to $500.


Hans
 
Howdy, in reading these posts, there's a lot of mixed answers and opinions. First off, calling 911 wont get you very far or with any desireable results. They will not be able to intervene or arrest anyone without a valid complaintant such as the airport authority/city/county, whoever. The first thing that comes to mind is that this guy has probably been banned before and that's why he piggy-backed you. You should not confront him but take note of his description, vehicle, and license and report that to whoever is in charge of security at your airport. If he has been banned before, he may be criminally trespassing. The best thing is to do your part by reporting him and then removing yourself from the situation.

I agree with a lot of people here that say they don't want to hide general aviation behind a wall or fence. The sad fact is that we have been attacked and the DHS/TSA has the responsibility to protect the public from terrorists. Granted, the threat from general aviation is small, but there is still a risk. Imagine if the terrorists started crashing 172's into malls or schools or dense population areas. The actual deaths caused wouldn't be anywhere near the WTC, but it would cause "terror". This is what they relish in. TSA has to address that potential with what we have now. I hate it just as much as the next guy, but we still get access to our hangars and fly relatively unmolested. The guy that blew past you is the person that causes us to get more and more rules put upon us. I have no problem of making him suffer due to his inability to go along with the program. If we police ourselves and deal with security unwavered and with prudence, TSA will see that we are addressing the issue and they don't need to impose anymore restrictions upon us.

I'm a Sheriff's Deputy and fly out of a class D airport. Keeping aviation like it used to be is very important to me and we work hard at our airport to keep it that way. We have controlled gates and had to attend a meeting on access and insurance verification. We have had a few incidences, but nothing major. We had one teenage kid of a pilot that was going to have a big party at his dad's hangar by staying inside the gate after the airport close at night. We intercepted that and hopefully prevented a lot of potential damage to aircraft. The only other problems we have had is with a few nasty pilot's including a CFI who, unbeknowst to him, invited our Chief Deputy to get out of his plane and fight. Needless to say, he was no longer employed with the flight school. A few other nasty ones have been squelched when we invite them over to the Sheriff's hangar to talk about it. For the most part, we have a friendly and courteous airport. 99.9% of the people do the right thing and try extra hard to keep the kindred spirit of aviation alive. Do not let the .1% ruin it for all of us and all the kids hanging on the fence. Many years ago, I was hanging on the fence and walking the flightline looking into airplanes and dreaming. Having an "advanced" pilot taking a few minutes of time to show us their Mooney, Citation Jet, helicopter,etc. impressed me with the camraderie and willingness to share their passion of flight. When I started flight lessons, it was also reassuring knowing that those pilots also persevered with awkward radio calls, manuevering, etc. when trying to shoot an instrument approach. That's what's important to me in aviation and now I'm the "advanced" pilot who patiently works with and around new pilot's. Isn't that what aviation about? Let's get rid of the schmuck's and keep it pure. I don't like the additional rules either. Let's just stay proactive and maybe we can keep the rules to a minimum.
 
But there is another class...

...

However, the piggybackee is very much more likely to be some impatient dude who lacks respect for other people and just lives in his or her own self important world. These breed of people live in every country and come from all walks of life. It seems when manners were being taught at school or at home (if ever that was the case), then they were obviously asleep at the time.

My advice is to let the guy through. Do not try and stop them. Just inform the appropriate people.

..of piggybackee -- the "lets rip off some tools, etc. folks".
Airport hangars are a great place to find good tool sets with few people around looking at what you are doing.

Tucson Ryan field has had a rash of hangar break-ins, and I would bet the thieves did not have access cards...:)

Just call it in and cover your butt...
 
This happens at new car dealerships too, but then again, the dealerships don't want to discourage "new customers" from visiting by puting up fences, signs and gates...

...Seems like those of us in the dying GA world could learn a thing or two about marketing.

I vote for less fences!

I know this thread is about security issues (and courtesy) but sometimes there are other good reasons for fencing, such as coyotes, deer, bears, moose, all seen locally here.
 
Fences

I know this thread is about security issues (and courtesy) but sometimes there are other good reasons for fencing, such as coyotes, deer, bears, moose, all seen locally here.

Very good point, I once hit a coyote, fortunately I was flying a large turboprop. I really wouldn't want to tangle with any wildlife in my '8.'

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Of course, barriers have their place in controlling wildlife, but in my example of "less fences", I am speaking metaphorically. As in: give the public access to our hobby; don't seem so elitist, unapproachable, etc...

A pass card protected gate is not required to keep wildlife out any more than "piggybacking " is an act of terrorism.
 
My immediate response would be to call the airport security office with license plate and description. If assured that it would be immediately dealt with I would be done with the subject. If no one answered the phone, or no immediate action was promised (secretary maybe?). I would immediately call 911 with the same info. Like GregM said, there might not be anything done, however you are on record upholding your responsibility.

This person assaulted your airport privelages, and possibly more.

The TSA is a large and powerfull agency. I dislike the fact that they even exist, let alone how they have implemented rules. But the fact of the matter is they do exist, and will only get bigger and more powerfull.

At work one day someone piggybacked me (keyed door) without a visible badge from the SECURE side to the UN-secure side. No problem right? Leaving the secured area is not a threat, right?!? NO! It was an inspector, I was sat down and re-educated about piggybacking and the ramifications. Luckily that was the extent of it. It did however put the fear of God in me. You can loose more than just 30 days of privelages. (maybe different areas/airports have more or less ramifications, but the list read to me was long and scary)

I agree with the free access to general aviation philosophy. But the TSA thinks differnt. A few years ago aviation was our court, then some very bad things happened and the TSA became what it is. Now it is their court and they are letting us play on it. They don't like us, and really wish we would leave our ball and go away. Hopefully if we play by their rules we will be allowed to continue playing.

Mark
 
Back
Top