I'm about 18 hours into Phase I and looking for things to do. Found Duane Cole's "Roll Around a Point" book on the shelf and decided to do some of the "pre-aerobatic" exercises like Chandelles, Lazy 8's and Tight Turns. He also talks about "Full Oscillation Stalls" where you hold the stick back at stall and keep the wings level with rudder. Is that OK in a 6A, and am I likely to get into a spin or tight spiral from this manuever?
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Full Oscillation Stalls
- Thread starter jpowell13
- Start date
Sure it's OK. Unless the airplane is severely mis-rigged, it's impossible to spin an RV, power-off with the rudder neutral, no matter what you do with the stick. However, in your attempts to keep the wings level with rudder, you get clumsy and apply a large rudder input without immediately removing it, you could possibly enter a spin. Do spins concern you in general? If so, that's an opportunity to get spin training and to get comfortable with them.
Thanks for the comments. I've had no spin training, but recovery doesn't sound difficult given plenty of altitude. If I'm unlikely to spin from the manuever, and it's a good training exercise I'm inclined to try it. I'll get training for spins and inverted manuevers after phase I.
There is nothing "difficult" about recovering from spins. But if your very first spin is accidental, and on your own, then "difficult" has a different meaning. Plenty of folks have entered spins playing around with stalls...especially power-on stalls.
If you want a sure fire way to avoid spinning an RV during stalls, no matter what, pull power off and keep the dang rudder and ailerons neutral through the stall. Forget keeping the ball in the center...yes that's right. Sure, you will probably drop a wing during a power-on stall, but you will NOT spin. When the airplane stalls, pull the power off and return the elevator to neutral, while continuing to hold neutral rudder and aileron. When your airspeed has increased a little, use aileron to level the wings, and return to level flight. NOTE: This is NOT the most efficient means of recovering from a power-on stall...far from it. But you will NOT spin if you do this. I don't necessarily recommend people really go out and do this...just an FYI for non spin-inexperienced pilots who are wondering about the dynamics.
Many people think a simple wing drop during a stall is an incipient spin entry. It most likely is not. It's unlikely to be an actual spin entry unless you are holding (and continue to hold) full aft elevator and full rudder. Most airplanes with straightforward spin qualities (including RVs) will not spin unless you fully deflect both controls and hold them. But since stall training these days teaches you to recover immediately, most don't let things develop to the point of seeing what is actually happening. Again, you can drop wings all day long during stall practice, but it's not likely going to be a spin unless you continue to hold full elevator and rudder.
You're probably more likely to get in a spin by USING the rudder to control a wing drop during normal stall practice if you get clumsy. In airplanes with safe spin characteristics, it is my experience that it will be the very rare airplane that will develop a spin if you pull power off at the stall and hold all controls neutral. Again, not saying that is the way to handle power-on or off stalls. Far from it. But what I describe is standard stuff in the world of aerobatic upsets from pretty much any type of spin departure you can imagine.
Learn proper rudder usage, but understand that if you're inexperienced and lose control of the airplane, or get out of your comfort zone, you're better off pulling all power off and neutralizing all controls than using lots of rudder in an attempt to level the wings or recover from what you think might be an incipient spin entry. I'm talking about practice at altitude here. None of this should be construed as a replacement for spin training. No reason to make excuses or delay. Just go get it.
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Neal@F14
Well Known Member
I would recommend first trying the "falling leaf" stalls in something tame, like a Cherokee 140, before trying them by yourself in an RV-6. I used to spin my old Cherokee 140 for fun, but not in my RV-6... it stalls and can drop a wing if slightly uncoordinated much too abruptly for my comfort. Straight-ahead stalls are no big deal, but I do *not* wish to intentionally spin this plane or get it close to a spin. Call me chicken... bock bock bock! 
Norman CYYJ
Well Known Member
Get yourself up to around 8000 ft. If you are unfamiliar with your planes characteristics you just might burn up more altitude than you want and might be a wee bit uncomfortable with what's left when you level out.
Thanks for all the input friends. I'm due for a biannual in a couple of months anyway. I'll wait 'til then and get some instruction. One thing building an airplane and living 61 years has taught me is to be more patient, seek and accept good advice and enjoy the ride!
qtrmiledan
Well Known Member
Message
Hey John, check your private messages! Thanks!
Hey John, check your private messages! Thanks!
Emergency Spin Recovery
The following is something I learned years ago and understand it was taught to aerobatic pilots. Hopefully one is at a good altitude. "...memorize the following"... if you find yourself in a spin and don't know what to do: (1) pull the throttle all the way off and let go of the stick. (2) Push the rudder pedal the opposite of the spin; if the spin doesn't stop, push the other rudder pedal until the spin stops. (3) Pull out of the dive gently."
I understand it has saved many a pilot.
Cheers and happy safe flying everyone.
The following is something I learned years ago and understand it was taught to aerobatic pilots. Hopefully one is at a good altitude. "...memorize the following"... if you find yourself in a spin and don't know what to do: (1) pull the throttle all the way off and let go of the stick. (2) Push the rudder pedal the opposite of the spin; if the spin doesn't stop, push the other rudder pedal until the spin stops. (3) Pull out of the dive gently."
I understand it has saved many a pilot.
Cheers and happy safe flying everyone.
The following is something I learned years ago and understand it was taught to aerobatic pilots. Hopefully one is at a good altitude. "...memorize the following"... if you find yourself in a spin and don't know what to do: (1) pull the throttle all the way off and let go of the stick. (2) Push the rudder pedal the opposite of the spin; if the spin doesn't stop, push the other rudder pedal until the spin stops. (3) Pull out of the dive gently."
I understand it has saved many a pilot.
Cheers and happy safe flying everyone.
Deal- yes, what you describe is known as the 'Beggs-Muller' emergency recovery technique. It works in many aerobatic airplanes from any type of spin you might find yourself in. However, there are some airplanes, in certain spin modes that will not recover using this "hands off" technique. The Decathlon is one. It has an inverted spin mode that actively requires the stick to be moved aft for recovery. Gene Beggs' book is well-worth reading.
The other accepted emergency recovery technique is the one that Bill Finagin advocates in the Pitts - pulling power to idle, looking inside the cockpit, visually moving all controls to neutral, wait for 100 MPH to show up on the ASI, and pull out. This works in the Pitts in any spin mode. It will also work in many other airplanes, but unless either this or the Beggs-Muller technique is tested across the entire spin matrix in each aircraft type (across the whole CG range), there are no guarantees. Active input spin recovery will always be quicker and more assured than one these two "emergency" techniques.
The point of the emergency techniques is to mitigate pilot confusion by standardizing the recovery inputs, regardless of spin type (upright, inverted, left, right, flat, accelerated, etc). However, the Beggs-Muller technique only gets you halfway there, since it still requires pushing the correct rudder. But it does not require you to figure out if you're inverted or upright and whether to push or pull the stick to reduce AOA. Don't count on maintaining full situational awareness if your first crossover spin is by yourself.
As long as it's proven to work in type, I prefer the neutral control technique that Bill Finagin advocates. It does not require you to figure out which rudder to push, or which way to move the stick. Simply neutralize everything. I've tested both techniques in the Pitts, and Beggs-Muller does recover the spin slightly faster than the neutral technique, but if you are flying at a reasonable altitude, this slight difference should not matter.
99.99% of the time, aerobatic pilots will be making active recovery inputs from deliberate spin entries. Complete control at all times. But in the event of accidental departures, and when the airplane does not respond to your recovery inputs as expected, either of the emergency techniques are essential to have in your bag. But you must recognize when it must be invoked. Last summer, a Canadian Pitts pilot did an accidental crossover during a practice session for a competition, and did about 10 inverted turns after crossing over from what was intended to be a 1-1/4 turn upright spin before hitting the ground. If he had been current with emergency recovery techniques, and realized that it needed to be invoked after the airplane clearly did not respond as intended (that's the definition of loss of control), he'd be alive today. Many others too.
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I would advise against anyone to attempt exploring advanced stall behaviour, such as this, without being fully trained in spin recovery, or having an experience copilot on board.
It is stripping away the safety buffer to an unwise degree.
I have done the manoeuvre described in Decathalon and the amount of rudder needed to be used gets larger and larger the longer you hold the stall. It would be very easy to enter a spin from such a manoeuvre.
