What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Fuel management question?

Experimental Chaos

Well Known Member
Has anyone considered a fuel crossover line? Maybe with a valve, or even a transfer pump? Knowing I had 10 gallons left, and thinking I sort of know where it is, it seems like it would be nice to have it all in one tank. With a carbureted engine, I don?t mind running one tank dry (so I know where the rest of the fuel is) but I?m not nearly as comfortable doing with a fuel injected engine. I know that there would be some risk of cross contaminating both tanks, but I?m thinking if you had bad enough fuel to stop the engine, you?re not very likely to get it purged out of the plumbing in time for a restart anyway. Or is my head screwed up from all those Cessna years with right, left, and both?
 
... With a carbureted engine, I don?t mind running one tank dry (so I know where the rest of the fuel is) but I?m not nearly as comfortable doing with a fuel injected engine...

Why not? I run a tank dry on nearly every cross country, and so far the restart of my IO-360 (Bendix RSA-5) has been 100%.
 
Cessna is left, right, and both ........because of high wing tanks and a fuselage header tank. RV's have several problems if the low tanks are inter-connnected. If banked, the fuel can run to the other tank. If one tank runs dry, it will stop the flow from the other tank.....as air enters the system. It would be a case of requiring a valve & pumps....and not forgetting an open valve.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
I don't know...

Why not? I run a tank dry on nearly every cross country, and so far the restart of my IO-360 (Bendix RSA-5) has been 100%.

I don?t know, it just scares me; I guess I?m worried about the fuel pump getting air locked. Maybe I don?t need to? The planes I?ve run dry have been carbureted high wingers, and I just counted on gravity.
 
As discussed, RVs typically have fuel levers with L, R, or Off positions, but not "Both". If you will be using a GRT or similar EFIS, you can set it up to alert you at xx minute intervals to switch tanks and keep things nice and even.

erich
 
if you know.......

when the tank is close to empty the EGT's will fall off before the engine quits. i have done this at altitude before on long trips. it leaves nothing in the tank.
 
Running a tank dry

With regards to non-returning fuel injection systems (Airflow Performance and Bendix/Precision) please understand what can happen.



"WARNING"
"Airflow Performance and Bendix/Precision fuel injection systems are non-returning systems. In the event that a tank is run dry in flight, an air lock will be formed on the outlet of the pumps. It is possible that the boost pump will not pick up fuel, as the boost pump cannot create enough air pressure to over come the flow divider opening pressure, thus displacing the air and resume pumping fuel. It is not recommended to run a fuel tank dry in flight without adequate testing and proper documentation of the procedure for this operation."


Don
 
I don't understand the need to routinely run a tank dry. The VFR requirement is to have at least 1/2 hour of fuel when you arrive at your destination so leaving a gallon or so in the tank should not be a problem. One thing nice about my Dynon is the fuel gauges are spot on combine with the fuel totalizer I can tell within 1/10 gal how much fuel I have at all times. Don
 
I don't understand the need to routinely run a tank dry. The VFR requirement is to have at least 1/2 hour of fuel when you arrive at your destination so leaving a gallon or so in the tank should not be a problem. One thing nice about my Dynon is the fuel gauges are spot on combine with the fuel totalizer I can tell within 1/10 gal how much fuel I have at all times. Don

In my mind, leaving a gallon or so in the tanks is the same as having ZERO fuel in that tank. I would not like to be forced back to a tank that has so little fuel anywhere near the ground. I run one dry while nice and high so that I have plenty of time to get it restarted, and so I know that all fuel is remaining in the other tank. Having a teaspoon full of fuel in many tanks is not the same as having that same total quantity in one tank.

As for the VFR requirement for a half hour remaining... You are required to "plan" for that, which I do. But we all know that plans change, and I have certainly landed more than once on vapor. That gallon "left behind" could have made the difference between landing off airport or not. It is because of this possibility that I make sure every drop of remaining fuel is consolidated to one tank at the end of my flight -Most of the time this remaining fuel is well over the VFR minimums, but if not, well I just don't want to be switching from an empty tank and waiting for the engine to catch while in the pattern.

As for the warning from Don at Airflow, thanks- That's something I've never heard before. I will certainly consider this possibility with any new airplane I fly. The tanks in my airplane (Hiperbipe) are behind the instrument panel with the boost pump below the tank outlet, so the pump should be fed better than an RV. I have switched away from the empty tank with only the engine driven pump working (no boost), but that too is pretty low compared to the fuel level. That said, the few times I have taken the RV-8 cross country, I have run a tank dry without restart problem. And in all honesty, I try to switch tanks as the fuel pressure is dropping. If I'm paying attention, I have about a 5 second window before the engine stops completely. I can conclude that the two fuel injected airplanes in my stable are "tested" and will restart under the conditions I ask them to, but I will certainly be more cautious with any new airplane from here on out.
 
Last edited:
Only ran my tanks dry once...

That was during phase1 to verify, beyond any doubt, that my fuel valve was working properly in shut off and that my fuel level indicators where spot on. Restart was immediate. My fuel indication with standard SW float senders was to the 1/10th. That was all I needed to know. I also did this at 3000' above the airport, just in case, and executed some steep turns in both directions. I was not able to starve the system even when the fuel level was very, very low.
Don, I have the AFP pump as was not aware of the cautionary note. Thought I read through all of the instruction materials that came with it. Perhaps I missed it?
I agree with Yak, and my pea brain can not find a scenerio where running a tank totally dry in normal operations makes sense to me. I always leave my reserve in one tank. If I had a brain fade and mismanaged my fuel so poorly that my other tank ran dry, I would have a fighting chance of finding a landing spot with my reserve. (unless I get that vapor lock that Don warns about -geez Don, one more thing to worry about! ha!)

The RV fuel system is simple. I would not mess with it.
 
If you are regularly flight planning your fuel so tight you will eventually become a statistic. I like to have 45min-1hr so I don't have to sweat it. I learned my lesson years ago flying my T-6 to California. My planned fuel stop was N Las Vegas and I was encountering high headwinds. I remember flying right over Lincoln Co airport thinking I should land but decided to press on. I shook every last drop out of the right tank and was very low on fuel when I hit N Las. Winds were 25-35kts gusting and changing directions. I nailed a direct x wind landing first time. Had less than 6gal left when I fueled up, not enough for a go around. So never again and I have never sweated fuel since. Don
 
The RV fuel system is simple. I would not mess with it.

Amen! Best post in this thread....

And I also agree with Yak - if you have come in on fumes more than once (most folks who fly for years have done it once), then you might examine where you are on the old learning curve!
 
Mine restarts quickly.

I have only run my dry during testing. I have used both tanks to the dry point, but each time I had plenty of fuel in the other.
The engine drops about 500 rpm before the engine restarts. I didn't need to turn on the boost pump for the restart.

That being said when I plan trips, I stop to refuel when I get to 8 gal left.

As for the Cessna both setting, I used that all the time during my flight training. A few month after getting my PPL I decided to take a 300 mile trip over the mountains. When I landed at the end and refueled the plane I was surprised that one side was almost dry and the other was 1/2 full.

I asked another more experienced pilot why that happened and was told that when you fly up high that the both setting should not be used. Something to do with unequal air pressure. I was warned that I could run out of gas for the engine with one tank being almost full in the both position.

Kent
 
Amen! Best post in this thread....

And I also agree with Yak - if you have come in on fumes more than once (most folks who fly for years have done it once), then you might examine where you are on the old learning curve!

On the other hand, landing "on fumes" is far better than having the engine quit due to fuel mismanagement - which happens with shocking regularity among pilots in general.

Good for those who have never found themselves really low on fuel... of course, there are plenty of pilots who never leave the pattern... Differences in mission dictate differences in risk.
 
yes, keep it simple!

OK, maybe I?m trying to solve a problem that doesn?t exist. It?s just that landing with 8 gallons in a single tank, seems far more comfortable than landing with 8 gallons spread between 2 tanks. My original thought, (ya, like I?ve ever had an original thought:eek:) was, when getting down to the 8 to 10 gallon range, pump it all into one tank. Several folks have pointed out ways, to end up with most of your remaining fuel to end up in one tank, and yes it?s a simple system, way muck it up. Thanks for the input.
 
A little trick I use....

I always start out on the left tank and switch tanks every 5 gallons. By using this method, I know that no matter what the situation, the right tank is always the fuller one.
 
...It?s just that landing with 8 gallons in a single tank, seems far more comfortable than landing with 8 gallons spread between 2 tanks...

That's my thinking...

My "last" tank switch is exactly that - I switch to the tank with ALL remaining fuel and then I don't have to worry about switching tanks again. If I happen to get myself into a situation where I really need to stretch fuel, I'll not be tempted to switch to the nearly empty tank and wonder if it has 30 seconds or 30 minutes of fuel left. Besides, if I have run one dry and the engine goes quiet later in the flight I have one less checklist item to worry about, 'cause fiddling with the fuel selector will not help.
 
That's my thinking...

My "last" tank switch is exactly that - I switch to the tank with ALL remaining fuel and then I don't have to worry about switching tanks again. If I happen to get myself into a situation where I really need to stretch fuel, I'll not be tempted to switch to the nearly empty tank and wonder if it has 30 seconds or 30 minutes of fuel left. Besides, if I have run one dry and the engine goes quiet later in the flight I have one less checklist item to worry about, 'cause fiddling with the fuel selector will not help.

I suppose this is okay................if I was to always land at an airport with a right or left hand pattern.........and then make sure the fuel is in the proper tank, so it doesn't run dry while banking........

or........it's just much easier to use my fuel flow computer and switch tanks every half hour when my GPS reminds me. Since my fuel flow gauge is accurate within a quart to half gallon, I'm never really guessing anymore.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
I suppose this is okay................if I was to always land at an airport with a right or left hand pattern.........and then make sure the fuel is in the proper tank, so it doesn't run dry while banking........

L.Adamson --- RV6A

If you have to worry about whether it is left or right turns to avoid running dry while banking, I submit you aren't making coordinated turns. In a coordinated turn the bank angle has nothing to do with the fuel unporting a fuel pickup. Now if you slipping to lose altitude, that is a different matter and depends on the direction of slip.

N144sh
 
Strange....

...that no one has mentioned shock cooling. If you're running the usual 350 or so degree CHT's and around 1350 EGT's, what do you suppose the heads and exhaust pipes feel as they succumb to the recent 30 degree F OAT's we've had as you intentionally remove the heat source? Furthermore, the prop is now driving the crankshaft, instead of the other way around and you can very easily cause ring bounce and possibly break one of the ring lands they rest in.

I'm not doing that to my 30 thousand something IO-540, nor should any of you. It smacks of amateurism, IMO.

Best,
 
Safety = Options

That's my thinking...

My "last" tank switch is exactly that - I switch to the tank with ALL remaining fuel and then I don't have to worry about switching tanks again. If I happen to get myself into a situation where I really need to stretch fuel, I'll not be tempted to switch to the nearly empty tank and wonder if it has 30 seconds or 30 minutes of fuel left. Besides, if I have run one dry and the engine goes quiet later in the flight I have one less checklist item to worry about, 'cause fiddling with the fuel selector will not help.

Pilots run out of fuel in flight because they are not paying attention to their fuel usage and quanity. I always leave fuel in the first tank so that I have two shoots at ensuring success. If you run a tank dry then you now only have one chance to get it right with no backup. 15 minutes of not paying attention due to weather or traffic can make lose focus on fuel management. If you have fuel left in the other tank, you may not know exactly how long you got, but you have power for enough time to make a safe plan of when and where to land. Having fuel in the other tank gives options which is what safety is about.

I do not believe that having 4 gallons in two different tanks decreases my aircraft's range over having 8 gallons in one tank. I will trust that my valve works to change tanks over giving up a fuel reserve and a safety option.
...that no one has mentioned shock cooling. If you're running the usual 350 or so degree CHT's and around 1350 EGT's, what do you suppose the heads and exhaust pipes feel as they succumb to the recent 30 degree F OAT's we've had as you intentionally remove the heat source? Furthermore, the prop is now driving the crankshaft, instead of the other way around and you can very easily cause ring bounce and possibly break one of the ring lands they rest in.

I agree with Pierre.

Does this need to move into the never ending debate category?
 
Last edited:
...that no one has mentioned shock cooling...

Please... Let's not get too dramatic just to try make a point. Nobody is talking about running a tank dry and then thermalling for a half an hour before restarting (which IS done with some airplanes, BTW). And how about practicing SFO's... Ever done that with your 30 something thousand 540, Pierre?

What we are talking about is running a tank dry as part of managing fuel. It is a conscious action that normally results in only a fuel pressure drop or slight stumble; at worst the engine stops making cruise power for only a second or two.
 
I typically start on the left tank and run it down ten gallons. Thus I have an hour worth of fuel left in it. Then I use the right tank. I may go back to the left...or not.

I do not run on fumes and frankly there is no excuse for that. On my last trip to Vegas, we had to land early because projected fuel remaining at out planned fuel stop was only six gallons.

Then we made another fuel stop...again to adjust for higher than planned headwinds.

While I have run a tank dry in testing multiple times, I do not on cross countries. I want enough fuel in the lowest tank to be able to land under power. Part of this is due to possibly unrealistic contingency concerns. On my last trip over less than hospitable terrain, and since I was #2 in a flight, I had lots of time to ponder issues. What if I was almost to the point of my left tank running dry and somehow the right tank cap came off? Would I lose most of the fuel in the right tank?

This concern was made worse by my left tank reading around 2.5 gallons when it should have been eight. Even worse, for a while it was reading zero. I did not know if the sump fitting had failed. The fuel gauge reading eventually came back up to eight gallons.
 
Last edited:
...I do not believe that having 4 gallons in two different tanks decreases my aircraft's range over having 8 gallons in one tank. I will trust that my valve works to change tanks over giving up a fuel reserve and a safety option.

By your reasoning, a Bonanza with tip tanks must be the ULTIMATE in safety... You could spread that 8 gallons across 4 tanks! Sorry, but the ultimate fuel system is a single tank, a short line to the engine, gravity fed, with an on/off valve. Any deviation from this ideal is because of compromise based on aircraft configuration. Van does not run two tanks, a selector valve, and boost pumps because it is "safer" - it's because he HAD to. That said, if you think that approaching the airport with 1 inch of fuel (or whatever 4 gallons is) above your tank pickup point is better than the level 8 gallons provides, then that is certainly your choice. I simply believe it's better to have my "reserve" stacked on top of my remaining fuel, and approach the airport drawing on that big fat bag of fuel. To each his own, I suppose.
 
Last edited:
Simpler does not always mean safer

By your reasoning, a Bonanza with tip tanks must be the ULTIMATE in safety... You could spread that 8 gallons across 4 tanks! Sorry, but the ultimate fuel system is a single tank, a short line to the engine, gravity fed, with an on/off valve. Any deviation from this ideal is because of compromise based on aircraft configuration.
I do not think I implied more is always better. I implied redundancy can be safer then a single option. That is why I have 2 mags, two GPS’s, two fuel pumps, and fuel in two fuel tanks. It would be silly to have 4 spark plugs per cylinder. You need to weigh the complication of having redundancy against the risk of a single thread failure in a simple system.

A single tank, a short line to the engine, gravity fed, with an on/off valve is definitely the simplest system but not necessarily the ultimate or ideal fuel system which will vary with aircraft design. Therefore I would turn the statement "Any deviation from this ideal is because of compromise based on aircraft configuration" around and say "the aircraft configuration determines what is the ideal compromise".
 
Last edited:
On the other hand, landing "on fumes" is far better than having the engine quit due to fuel mismanagement - which happens with shocking regularity among pilots in general.

Good for those who have never found themselves really low on fuel... of course, there are plenty of pilots who never leave the pattern... Differences in mission dictate differences in risk.

I was taught, and practice, that if you are starting to burn your reserves (be it VFR or IFR), an emergency is beginning.

Something like 12-14% of all GA accidents are due to fuel mismanagement. I don't equate caution when ensuring I have enough fuel on board to safely proceed to my destination WITH RESERVES INTACT with "never leaving the pattern".
 
I do not think I implied more is always better. I implied redundancy can be safer then a single option. That is why I have 2 mags, two GPS?s, two fuel pumps, and fuel in two fuel tanks.




First off, you have two mags because you have two plugs per cylinder, and that has nothing to do with safety. Two plugs are required to get the flame front all the way across a big piston during the combustion event. It's a performance issue- the safety aspect is only a residual benefit. Second, you have two pumps because you have a configuration of airplane (low wing) or engine (fuel injected) which does not benefit from a simpler, more reliable gravity feed fuel system. In this case, you are required to have a backup because a single point failure would cause a forced landing. This is not a step forward in safety, but required action to get BACK UP TO an acceptable level of safety.

Finally, your decision to have remaining fuel spread among two tanks actually INCREASES your chances that you will be required to use your backup. Let me illustrate:

You and I are both in identical airplanes and have arrived together at our destination with the legal day VFR fuel reserve of 30 minutes of fuel on board. Depending on engine, this 30 minutes is between 4 and 5 gallons. Let's say we both have 360's and we enter the pattern at 5.1 gallons, you with two and a half each side, and me with all of it in one tank. As we configure for landing, we know from listening to the radio that it's going to be a challenging landing, and sight of the windsock whipping all around confirms it. The conditions are a mess and we are getting a beating on the downwind, but this is within both of our comfort zones so we press on. Now I ask you, given the extensive and passionate debate concerning "unporting" the fuel at low levels of fuel, which one of us is in a better position? I have a quarter tank sitting above the fuel pickup, while you have far less. Technically, you have half as much, but with all the sloshing around in those long, skinny tanks, who is more likely to unport? Remember, the chance of unporting is not linear with fuel level, not even close. Continuing with the scenario, as you turn base, you are keeping the airplane well under control but it's not real pretty. Let's face it, Bob Hoover would have a hard time keeping the ball in its cage ALL the time... So due to your reduced level of margin on your selected tank, the thing unports, the fuel press low light comes on and the engine coughs. Being the fine pilot that you are and despite the fact that you are 500' AGL and about to turn final, you calmly switch to your "reserve" tank (with its whopping 2.5 gallons) and the engine roars back to life. Ok, things are looking good, but remember, no pilot in his right mind is going to switch back the tank that you just left, so whatever fuel that does remain in that tank is now effectively gone for the rest of the flight. You are on your reserve 2.5 now, hardly in any better position than you were when the engine quit... What if you have to go around? Meanwhile, my equally gusty and uncoordinated pattern did NOT unport the tank (because at 5 gallons, its nearly a quarter full), so I never had to make the heroic but risky tank switch at 500 feet. Assuming I also botch the landing and go around, As we enter downwind for attempt #2, I ask you again, honestly, which of us is comfortable and which of us is sweating bullets? We both have the same amount of fuel still on board (let's say about 4 gallons), but you have half of that "banished" to the tank that almost killed you a minute ago. I now have 4 gallons covering my fuel pickup, you have 2, we're looking at another challenging landing, and neither of us now has a "reserve"... Which airplane is better equipped to complete the mission?
 
The question remains

OK, Mr. Robinson is describing the dooms day scenario I was originally trying to avoid, buy asking about a crossover line, with a valve, and maybe a transfer pump. So, the question remains (not trying to fan up a debate) what is the best way to get all your remaining fuel in one tank? Assuming one is not comfortable running a fuel injected engine dry?
 
OK, Mr. way to get all your remaining fuel in one tank? Assuming one is not comfortable running a fuel injected engine dry?

My memory may be fuzzy here, but IIRC Tracy Crook on his original RV-4 setup with the Mazda rotary engine fed the engine only from the left tank, and had a transfer pump/line from the right tank to the left one.

As he flew, he transferred fuel from the right to the left tank to keep things balanced, and could have all of his fuel in the left tank when he was low.
 
Another way

For those of you aerospace types, uncovering a fuel pick up and sucking air instead of fuel is not a new problem for the aerospace industry. The fuels tanks in spacecraft have to deal with this every day. So how does the aerospace guys deal with this? Simple, they make a fuel pickup strainer that will let fuel enter but not air. It is really quit simple and easy to build. Read any book on spacecraft fuel systems and you will see the devices. There are several types. The only disadvantage is the first time you fill the lines, a small quantity of fuel will need to be forced back into the tanks to prime the system. I will be incorporating these into my tanks... never have to worry about sucking air by accidentally uncovering a pickup..
 
There are what? 7,000+ RV's flying around now....probably the vast majority of them have the "stock" Van's fuel system. They are not dropping out of the sky like flies due to fuel exhaustion (with fuel still rapped in the other tank). So let's take a step back here guys - experimenting is fun, sure - it's why many are in the field - but modified fuel systems are the leading cause of "mechanical failure" type crashes in Experimental aircraft. What "problem" are you trying to solve? Messing around with a tired and true design of a system which is FLIGHT CRITICAL is something that you should only do if you are actually going to solve a real issue.

Yeah, I am a bit of a stickler on this one - nothing is worse than having that engine quit at 300 feet on take-off. It's gonna ruin your airplane, and (statistically) gonna' kill ya'.

If it were me, I'd look for another way to exercise my creative talents and leave the fuel system alone.

Paul
 
Ok, I'll join the fun :)

The original poster purportedly asked a question about fuel management, but really he had already jumped to proposing possible solutions without having first clearly defined the problem. That's a classic pitfall in engineering. And most of the rest of this thread suffers from the same pitfall -- quibbling about the relative merits and risks of various proposed solutions, still not having clearly defined the problem they're trying to solve. No offense to anyone here. Just trying to boil this discussion down to its essentials.

So let's try to clearly define the problem. I think the fundamental question that underlies the original post is this:

"What is the most reliable way to access the last drop of usable fuel remaining, whether operationally and/or in terms of fuel system architecture?"
We'll call this the problem.

It's a fair question to ask. Although, as others have pointed out, actually needing to use every last drop of usable fuel points to a more fundamental problem in one's fuel management practices. But let's put that aside for the moment and explore the problem further.

If we had perfectly accurate fuel quantity indications in the cockpit, then the solution to the problem would be trivial. We could run a tank to within drops/seconds of being "dry", then switch tanks with no hiccup in engine operation. However, in reality, we don't have perfectly accurate fuel quantity indications (neither the fuel gauges nor totalizer nor manual fuel burn estimates are perfectly accurate), so to prevent running a tank dry we have to switch tanks a little earlier, by the amount of uncertainty in the indications. So the problem pertains to access to the last quantity of fuel that is equal to the quantity of uncertainty, i.e. the worst case inaccuracy of our best available fuel level indication in the cockpit. With a properly installed properly calibrated fuel totalizer for example, we're talking about a mere few tenths of a gallon. That's the quantity of fuel that this discussion is really all about, no more.

Now, in terms of fuel system design: To be able to access that last fraction of a gallon without fuel-starving the engine, you could add transfer pumps, etc. But as others have aptly pointed out, this adds complexity, both mechanically and operationally, and adds new failure modes and risks that likely outweigh its benefit. Now since we're talking fuel system design, a much simpler way to get that extra little bit of fuel, would be to simply make your tanks that extra little bit bigger, without changing the fuel system architecture in any way. Of course, no matter how big you make the tanks, someone will still ask the question, "how best do I get that last drop of usable fuel out of them"? And that's why this inevitably turns into a silly circular argument.

So I think it boils down to this:

It might make sense, under some rare emergency situation, to actually deliberately run a tank dry and then switch to the other non-empty tank. But this is a trade-off between two risk scenarios that are both serious: One is the risk associated with running a tank dry and the consequent possibility of not being able to keep or get the engine running again. The other is the risk associated with forfeiting that last few tenths of a gallon in that tank, if (and that's a big "if") that last few tenths of a gallon would make the difference between making the airport or not. [Which of course, if that's the case, means you've already f***ed up big time.]

But under routine operation, i.e. a non-emergency situation, there is no good reason for your flight to be so fuel-critical that you need that last fraction of a gallon. And as such, there is no good reason to run a tank dry nor to alter the fuel system architecture by adding transfer pumps, etc. You simply need to plan and conduct your flight comfortably within your usable fuel capacity. And note that the legal minimums aren't necessarily sufficient minimums in practice under all circumstances. You have to use good judgment, taking into account all factors pertaining to the flight.

And a specific suggestion that I would propose, for those pilots that insist on flying at the edge of the envelope: Fly at the edge of a derated envelope. Aerodymaically and structurally, you already are, thanks to safety margins built in to the airframe specifications by the engineers. But they don't do this for your usable fuel indications. For flight planning and fuel management purposes, consider derating your usable fuel capacity by the amount of uncertainty/inaccuracy in your best available in-cockpit fuel quantity indications, whatever they are in your case. Doing this will ensure that you don't unexpectedly run a tank dry while your fuel remaining indication is greater than zero.
 
Last edited:
...With a properly installed properly calibrated fuel totalizer for example, we're talking about a mere few tenths of a gallon. That's the quantity of fuel that this discussion is really all about, no more...

I disagree. I am talking about several gallons. If you think you can draw the last few tenths of a gallon while getting kicked around on a gusty arrival, you are a braver man than I. Now, I'm perfectly comfortable in the knowledge that I can get nearly 100% of any given tank while up high and in level, coordinated flight, but that comfort turns to caution the closer I get to a terminal environment. I subtract a few gallons from each tank when in the pattern in case of rough weather or rough flying that causes the fuel to migrate away from the pickup. But I'm just conservative, I guess. Long, shallow tanks such as found on RV's do not react well to uncoordinated flight because all the available fuel can and does move far away from the pickup in normal maneuvering flight. If you want to see all the warnings about this tendency, just look up the thread concerning a fuel selector with a "both" position. Unless everyone has changed their minds since that debate, one universal truth on this board still stands: the RV tank will unport when it gets low. The lower it gets, the more likely the unporting event. Now, if anyone wants to come on board and show me that you can reliably draw every drop regardless of aircraft attitude, I'm all ears. But I don't believe this. I know how RV tanks are constructed, and every drop of fuel above the pickup increases your "unporting margin", and I want that margin as large as I can get it. This is not about using every last drop of fuel on board and landing on fumes - this is about arriving in the pattern with a legal reserve of fuel and having the most "unporting margin" you can possibly have on the remaining fuel.

As for a redesign, I'm with the rest of the gang - it's not needed. It will add complication, and the results can be had for only the cost of paying attention. The engine will let you know before it quits, so you can switch tanks with the knowledge that the tank is "dry" and your "reserve" is now safely mixed in with your "normal" fuel providing not only the added benefit of increased fuel volume (unporting margin), but also simplifying your fuel management for the rest of the flight.
 
I disagree. I am talking about several gallons. If you think you can draw the last few tenths of a gallon while getting kicked around on a gusty arrival, you are a braver man than I. ...[snip]

Michael, I think you missed my point there. I'm not advocating arriving on approach running on a tank containing fractions of a gallon, nor am I advocating shuffling between tanks on approach. Quite the opposite.

The point I was trying to make is this: Even if you do decide to effectively deplete tank A before the approach phase, so that you can conduct the approach entirely on tank B which now contains all of your remaining fuel (not a bad idea), then from an operational standpoint there are still two possible ways to do that. Or I should say, two different ways to define tank A as "depleted". One is to actually run tank A until it unports, as indicated by loss of engine power. The other is to run tank A only until your fuel remaining indication/calculation, adjusted in the conservative direction for margin of error in the indication, is zero. Doing this, you switch tanks before tank A can unport, thereby preventing the temporary loss of engine power and the risk that it won't be temporary. And yes, the price you pay for taking this more conservative approach, is that you forfeit whatever quanitity of usable fuel may still be physically present in that tank, which you know is somewhere between zero and the worst case inaccuracy in your fuel indication/calculation (a fraction of a gallon with a well-functioning totalizer). That's what I mean when I say that the difference between the conservative approach and the aggressive approach still only amounts to a difference of a fraction of a gallon.
 
Anecdotally, I know certified aircraft have to run tanks dry in several types of attitudes and uncoordinated test points in attempt to determine the unusable fuel.

As a example I ran a bonanza tank low but not dry one day on purpose...ended up putting 38 gallons in it with the usable placarded as 35 and capacity is 40. So Beech's solution to a gusty approach or crosswind slip to landing was to ensure 5 gallons remained in the tank.

My point is that all but a few ounces of fuel will drain from these RV tanks sitting in the hangar or in level flight. But without doing the same testing that is required of the production world, there is some degree of additional risk we assume.

Fly safe,

Jim
 
Michael, I think you missed my point there. I'm not advocating arriving on approach running on a tank containing fractions of a gallon, nor am I advocating shuffling between tanks on approach. Quite the opposite...

Yes, I see that I did misunderstand. If you do it right, the amount "left behind" (and therefore lost, unusable, etc) is minimal... We are in complete agreement.
 
I have a plain and simple RV-4. No fuel flow, no multi-cylinder EGT/CHT and no fancy fuel gauges. I do run a tank dry on a long XC. Why? So I know how much fuel I have burned. If I knew when 5 gallons or 15.8 gallons had passed through the engine I wouldn't need to do this.

I take off on the left tank and fly 30 minutes. I then switch to the right tank and run it dry. If it runs for 2:15 before it runs dry I know I have at least 1:30 minutes in the left tank. I never fly over 3 hours and I never play with the power once its set for the XC. (Yes, I know there is 15 minutes missing there. This is the I know I'm going to make it 15)

Someone said the RV fuel system is simple and it is. It works great from my perspective.
 
Why take the risk

I am 33 yo. I have work really hard to be here today, I have a beautiful wife, the better 20 month old boy on the planet, i want to live another day to enjoy flying and see my family again.
I am almost always planing my flight IFR so a lot of fuel in the airplane. Even IFR i had to change my plan often and always been happy to have more fuel than needed. So i never have try to run dry. Maby i am too much on the safe side, mabe it wasn't in my training to restart in flight ( just simulation). Even if flying is my biggest passion, i always keep a certain fear ( better to wish flying while on the ground than wish to be on the ground when you are flying ).

I work in a hospital. When i explain the RISK to my patient i always say that enev if it's a small 1% risk and it happend to you, you will have 100% of this complication. So if my engine restart 99 time out of 100, the one time that it doesn't restard it's once of excess. I have some good fuel level sensors, a fuel flow. I don't feel the need to make the fan stop.

I don't try to debate, just give my point of view.
 
With regards to non-returning fuel injection systems (Airflow Performance and Bendix/Precision) please understand what can happen.

"WARNING"
"Airflow Performance and Bendix/Precision fuel injection systems are non-returning systems. In the event that a tank is run dry in flight, an air lock will be formed on the outlet of the pumps. It is possible that the boost pump will not pick up fuel, as the boost pump cannot create enough air pressure to over come the flow divider opening pressure, thus displacing the air and resume pumping fuel. It is not recommended to run a fuel tank dry in flight without adequate testing and proper documentation of the procedure for this operation."

Don

Don, If one were to inadvertently run a tank dry with an Airflow Performance or Bendix/Precision fuel injection system, what IS the correct restart procedure? Particularly if an Airflow Performance bypass valve is installed? It stands to reason that, based on your statement, one should open the bypass valve for a few seconds (to allow the pump to prime) if restart does not occur within a few seconds. Thus the procedure would be something as follows:

In case of fuel starvation due to emptying a fuel tank:
1. Switch tanks
2. Boost Pump On
3. Wait 10 seconds
4. If no restart, open purge valve for 10 seconds
5. Close Purge Valve
6. Repeat steps 3-6.

Does this make sense? Does having a purge valve eliminate this concern?
 
...If one were to inadvertently run a tank dry with an Airflow Performance or Bendix/Precision fuel injection system, what IS the correct restart procedure?...

Assuming that simply selecting a new tank DIDN'T work, then it is logical to conclude that all you have to do is get a slug of fuel to the boost pump so that it can build enough pressure to overcome the diaphragm in the flow divider. I would bet that a few seconds with the purge valve open would do it. That said, and while it makes sense that a dry pump (pumping air) can't overcome the flow divider diaphragm in theory, has anyone ever heard of this actually happening?
 
Concerning the merits (or not) of running a tank dry: The current AOPA magazine has this exact debate in the "Dogfight" column. Horne does it; Hirschman does not.

Timely.
 
Learning

I am learning from those of you on both "sides" of this debate, as well as from those of you jumping in occasionally from the bench. There's a saying in law school that learning the law is easy, it's learning to think like a lawyer that's hard. Reading the myriad debates on these forums between aviators with more experience than I'll ever have is (slowly) helping me learn to "think like an aviator" (even now, nearly 30 years after my checkride). Thank you.

--Stephen
 
Back
Top