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Frustrated....

A

Ansarie

Member
I have posted, before, that after dimpling a test piece, the rivets seems to swim in the enlarged holes. Many replied that is normal, so I proceeded with the actual pieces.

Now, I am ready to rivet the HS skin to the ribs, and the Clecos would not hold, they keep popping out. Did something like that happen to you and how did you solve it. My worry is I have a defective dimple die (larger that it should be) rendering my whole work so far as junk! I go the tools kit from Spruce.

I am very frustrated and I need help from actual builder who did this already. Do the clecos suppose to hold pieces (tight together) after dimpling too? - so you can river the darn thing.

Ansarie.
 
My dimpled holes were definitely larger than the rivets ... even when I tested things and drilled some #41. The rivets do seem to "swim" in the holes a little. However, the clecoes held with no trouble.
Not sure if that helps ... maybe you could find a local builder and see if your clecoes hold in his/her dimpled holes, or maybe mic the dimple die and see how the pilot compares to others...

Thomas
-8 wings
 
Ansarie said:
I have posted, before, that after dimpling a test piece, the rivets seems to swim in the enlarged holes. Many replied that is normal, so I proceeded with the actual pieces.

Now, I am ready to rivet the HS skin to the ribs, and the Clecos would not hold, they keep popping out. Did something like that happen to you and how did you solve it. My worry is I have a defective dimple die (larger that it should be) rendering my whole work so far as junk! I go the tools kit from Spruce.

I am very frustrated and I need help from actual builder who did this already. Do the clecos suppose to hold pieces (tight together) after dimpling too? - so you can river the darn thing.

Ansarie.
Click to expand...

They're supposed to hold them tight. It almost sounds like you used a 1/8" dimple die in your 3/32" holes.
 
Nop, I used the right one...

I used the right one John...

The cleco would hold for about a second, then it pops out. You can not have a 3/32 cleco hold a 1/8 dimpled hole, not even close...
 
Ansarie said:
I used the right one John...

The cleco would hold for about a second, then it pops out. You can not have a 3/32 cleco hold a 1/8 dimpled hole, not even close...
Click to expand...

That's bizzarre....sounds like a question for you tech counselor or a local builder so you can show them the actual parts, dies, etc. Even after dimpling, I've never had a cleco pop out of a hole like that, nevermind ALL the clecos popping out.

Some obvious things to try (I'm absolutely positive you've done this already, but it can't hurt to list it, I suppose).

1) You've tried more than one cleco
2) You've tried more than one hole

I'm anxious to know what you ultimately find the problem to be...this is really strange.
 
The Clecoes should still hold the pieces tightly together, even after the dimpling process. Make sure you are using the correct size dimple dies, 3/32 for # 40 holes and 1/8 for # 30 holes. The dies may enlarge the holes slightly, but the clecoes should fit and the rivets should lay nicely in the dimples, flush with the skin surface. Also, silver colored clecoes are 3/32 and copper are 1/8".

I would think the dies from ACS should be OK. I used tools from Avery and had no problems as you describe. If you are in doubt of the fit being proper, you may need to redo your work. It is possible to use larger "OOPS" rivets or drill out to the next size rivet in some cases. I would have someone knowledgable examine your work. It is better to redo than to have a failure in flight.

Hope you get things resolved

Roberta
 
Are your clecos new?

Ansarie said:
Now, I am ready to rivet the HS skin to the ribs, and the Clecos would not hold, they keep popping out. Did something like that happen to you and how did you solve it. My worry is I have a defective dimple die (larger that it should be) rendering my whole work so far as junk! I go the tools kit from Spruce.

Ansarie.
Click to expand...

It hasn't happened to me with my dimpled holes and my clecos. However, it happened often during my SportAir workshop. The instructor wrote it off to "old, worn, clecos." I accepted that, because after all, those clecos see a lot of use.

Are your clecos new?

Cheers,
Martin
 
Everything is NEW

The Clecos and the tools, along with the dimple dies are new. I have tried many different holes and clecos. They hold if there is not pull at all, but if there is a little pull from the skin, like the HS skin, they pop out. I am baffled! I wanted to call Vans today, but they are closed. I am making other phone calls later today, but any help here is appreciated.
 
You got some local builders around that you could borrow dimple die set to test? You'd be best off to consult with someone who's already been there done it..
 
Seek Help!

That's bizzarre....sounds like a question for you tech counselor or a local builder so you can show them the actual parts, dies, etc.
Click to expand...
This seems to me to be the best advise in your case. Without seeing the actual parts, and the tools you are using, it would be really hard for someone to give you the proper answer to your problem. Before you get much farther along, and possibly deeper into a mess, try to find someone knowledgeable such as a local builder or a tech counselor, who can come inspect what you've done. After all, that's what the tech counselor program's all about.

And above all, Hang in there!!
Bill Waters
 
Hi Ansarie,

It would seem unlikely that your new dimple die is the wrong size, but stranger things have happened. I just measured the nose of my old trusty die that I've had for years, and it measured .091". If I drill a .40 hole (about .096"), the nose of the die goes in easily, but there's not a bunch of slop either. Does this describe how yours fits? Can you measure the nose of your die with a dial caliper and see how it compares to the measurement I gave?

I agree that the rivet will have plenty of play when inserted into a dimpled hole, and it will seem worse the thinner the material is, but the cleco should certainly hold. The only time I've seen holes too big for the cleco is when I've gotten carried away with deburring. It's real easy to take off too much material, and actually enlarge the hole, particularly on thin material.

Try riveting some scrap material together, and see how well the rivets hold. If you're at all unsure, have someone else take a look at it.

Whatever you do, don't get overly frustrated this early in the game. The good news is that the steep part of the learning curve will be over before you know it, and you'll worry less, and make better progress.

Good luck.
 
Hey Ansarie...

I seem to be in the minority (along with you) in that I experienced the same problem. The only difference was that it occured on one of my ailerons. I had a stretch of about a dozen skin-to-spar holes that did this. Here's how I handled it. I had a supply of NAS1097AD4 rivets (the so-called "oops" rivets) on hand. I drilled one hole in the middle of the problem area to #30 and installed the rivet. That held things together long enough to allow me to get the rest of the 3/32" rivets installed. They formed normal tails, and presented no further problems.
I never did figure out what went wrong; but it wasn't a show stopper. If you don't have any "oops" rivets on hand and don't want to wait, you could put a 426AD4 in one hole and shave or sand the head down later.
I hope this helps; you're not alone in this!

Ben R.
RV-9A #90217
Fuselage center section in progress
 
You may already have this solved, but my dies have their size on the side of the die. Thank goodness for me or I would have messed something up.
 
Thanks Rusty...

I have measured the dimple die and it is 0.093, 3/1000 more the one you have Rusty. You think this makes a difference?

It is very frustrating when the parts or tools do not work as expected. The frustration is from a cleared-of-all-chores and socials weekends that are hard to come by again! I very much appreciate the communal help and sometime the massaging of the ruffled feathers. It seems every time I have a three-day weekend to make some progress, I get a show stopper on the first day, thus the venting.

As for drill bits and sizes, they are part of the Ordered New Kit, #40 and #30. The small one, #40 I think, is the one used to match drill the ribs and skins- per the instructions. I apprecaite the inquery, but the #30 and #40 are not that close to get them confused.
 
Ansarie said:
I have measured the dimple die and it is 0.093, 3/1000 more the one you have Rusty. You think this makes a difference?
Click to expand...

:eek: Hope not...if I have to build this thing accurate to one thousandth of an inch to keep it from falling apart, I'm screwed... :D
 
Hi John...

Are you in the high desert, just north of Los Angeles?

I live in Glendale and I would apprecaite it if we can compare notes! I can bring most of my junk to show you!
 
Bring 'em to Chino

Ansarie said:
Are you in the high desert, just north of Los Angeles?

I live in Glendale and I would apprecaite it if we can compare notes! I can bring most of my junk to show you!
Click to expand...

Ansarie,

If you want to bring your stuff (drill bit, dimple dies, clecos, and a test piece) over to Chino, I'd be happy to take a look and compare results with my tools. My -7 is down for the condition inspection right now otherwise I'd offer you a ride as well (rain check if you want).

FWIW, I've used some sub-par clecos before. Mine are WEDGELOCK -- they say that around the top rim -- and they work just fine.

)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
 
Dan is the MAN!

I would love to salvage some of this weekend and maybe get some progess. I have used your website for many months already. Chino sounds good and anytime tomorrow is good.

Please email or call me.

(818)259-2458 Cell
[email protected]
 
Ansarie said:
I have measured the dimple die and it is 0.093, 3/1000 more the one you have Rusty. You think this makes a difference?
Click to expand...

I'm sure that's fine. If anything, mine's worn out :p

There's still the possibility that your clecos were made incorrectly, but that's a long shot as well.

I still can't imagine anything else being wrong except for the possibility of over-deburring. When you deburr, the goal is to take off any burrs that are raised above the surface of the metal. Unfortunately, using the typical deburring tool, it's easy to "chamfer" the hole to some degree. It's really easy when that deburring tool is new and sharp.

Think about how the metal is shaped after it's dimpled. The 90 degree edge that's on the outer surface of the hole becomes the smallest diameter of the hole. If you take off any of that 90 degree corner with the deburring tool, your increasing the size of the hole once it's dimpled. Hopefully that description made sense.

How about trying a test on some scrap. Drill and dimple a couple pieces without deburring at all, then see if the clecos fit any better.

You may be doing this perfectly already, but I mention it only because it seems like the most likely problem, and it's so very easy to do this.

Good luck. Hope you salvage most of your 3 day weekend.
 
Ansarie said:
Are you in the high desert, just north of Los Angeles?

I live in Glendale and I would apprecaite it if we can compare notes! I can bring most of my junk to show you!
Click to expand...

Yep, that's exactly where I live. And yep, you can bring anything by anytime you'd like...I always like meeting new builders and we have at least 4 RV's being built around here (probably more like 6).

Be warned, though, that I'm no good at this yet either (I can tell you about electrical stuff, but stay away from any sheet metal advice you might get from me...lol). Dan is certainly a MUCH wiser choice :D
 
All clecos are not created equal...

Ansarie,

I had the same problem when clecoing the #40 rib-to-skin holes on my HS and VS. I was using "CLEKOLOK" brand clecos left over from a previous project.

One thing I found is that there was considerable variation in the quality of my clecos. The cleco "fingers" - the fat part at the end - were of different shapes, and some held better than others in deburred+dimpled holes. I sifted through all my #40s and found enough good ones to get the job done.

Last year I needed some more #40s for my wing skins and bought new Monogram "WEDGELOCK" clecos from Avery. They're much better than the CLEKOLOKs - no problems so far with them slipping out of dimpled holes. Perhaps you could borrow some from another builder and check them out on your project?

Hope this helps...

Dave
 
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I had issues with the Clekoloks and got some Wedgeloks from Cleaveland and they work great. Just another .02 worth.
 
I have run across this a few times on my HS and VS. No more than 1 in 50 holes at the most. I suspect that I might have gotten a bit carried away with the deburring tool. I also have some of the cheaper clecos.

Jeff
 
Sort of out of left field here, but I use a drill gauge to make sure of the size of the drill before chucking it up. Works good on the pilots of dimple dies and countersink cutters, too! Quick way to seperate the #40's & #41's, make sure you've got the size you think you've got, etc. A quality steel gauge does wonders for my piece of mind...
Now clekos are another story - I've got a half dozen each of the silver and bronze ones that I can't get to work. The tounge that sticks out when you insert them sticks out to the side so it can't go into the hole. Kinda like trying to stuff a dog into a wash tub...
Johnny
 
Me too

I've had this happen from time to time. But it was usually limited to a just a few holes. Usually I put in the clekos and now and then one will pop out. Usually I put in a differn't cleko and it will hold. Sometimes the hole will just be a tad loose and the any cleko will have a sloppy grip on the hole. To much deburring or what have you. But's never been a problem come rivet time. If this is hapening to ALL your holes something is up.
 
I had a few holes that wouldn't hold a cleco when I first started building and I cut some 3/8 inch square washers of thin aluminum sheet and drilled a #40 hole in them. You put the cleco through whatever you are riveting and then through the 3/8 washers. The cleco will grip on the washer and pull the rest together. When you get a rivet on either side if the washered hole take the washer out and rivet that hole.

The problem maybe be happening before you dimple. The fix for my problem was to make sure the drill was square with the hole and two quick bursts on the drill with slow rpms. One burst gets through the material and another gets the drill back out. That way you don't wallow the hole out too big.

I had one place where there were maybe 10 holes that the cleco wouldn't hold and after using the washers everything riveted fine.

I remember how frustrating it was at first not having anyone close to give a hand but you will be amazed how fast you will learn to rivet if you just keep trying. When you get really Pee-o'd just stop and do something else for a while. Dan will have you making good rivets in no time. You are lucky to have him close enough to drive over to.

Hang in there it gets better, actually MUCH better. :)
 
Maybe it is the Cleco's!

It is frustrating, but I have learned to stop working when I am frustrated, also, to keep my mouth shut when I am angry ? don?t ask. To clear my head, I stopped all work and took the dog for a walk only to have a tug-of-war with the dog when he saw spilled pasta in a driveway. I am either not feeding him enough or he is half Italian! It is a small dog, but when he wants something he would roll 60 degrees pulling G?s to get it.

It is looking more likely it is the Clecos. Since many of you mentioned the quality of the clecos, or lack thereof, I went back to the garage to have a look. There suppose to be an arrowhead at the tip of the clecos when the spring (and middle wedge) is retracted. Well, mine were more like half an arrowhead. I have sampled about twenty and they all looked the same.

I am planning to visit Dan (at Chino) this morning and should be able to verify the problem by a more experienced builder. :)
 
Back on course!

It is the darn Clecos.

I visited Dan at his hanger and we compared notes. Immediately he noted that there seems to be something wrong with the Clecos. The arrow head is deformed and significantly smaller than the ones he got. I have close to three hundreds of them; they are only suitable for match-drilling and they would not hold a dimpled hole. What a waste!

Dan gave me a few hands full of his clecos until my order arrives. His Clecos are Wedglock and mine are crap! Wedglock clecos work great and I am back on course! My clecos are part of the Master Builder Kit from Spruce and my recommendation is DO NOT BUY for many reasons. You know about the Clecos, the rivet hand-squeezer yoke is not changeable; the three snips are flimsy and look like they are from a 99 cent store.

Dan, also, answered many of my questions and was kind enough to allow my drooling on his beautiful aircraft which was down for the annual. Not only that, but he offered me a ride as soon as he is in the air again. What a great guy! I can?t say enough nice things about Dan.

Many thanks, also, to all who jumped at the chance to help.

Ansarie.
 
Overall, that's really great news Ansarie. Call Spruce and complain. They've usually been pretty good about making these things right for me. If you really want to make sure you don't end up with bad tools, just deal with Avery. I bet I've spent $10k there over the last 15 years or so.

Now get back to work before your long weekend is over :D
 
How far did they fly? the clecos? :)

I was working on my cowling and had some clecos in the inlet area. POP--- BANG! right across the shop into the side of the fuselage. (had to lower my paint line to hide the ding.)

put another back in, started sanding and POP-- must have shot by me at a hundred mph. be careful, I could have lost an eye or all my teeth.
 
Consider using reamers

Consider putting the #30 and #40 bits aside and go with #30 and #41 reamers for all predrilled holes. The reamers create so much better holes and the #41 tightens those dimpled holes up just a tad, not much but just a little. We used the #41 reamer for all skin holes at the Alexander Technical Center and the results were great.
 
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