What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Flight Test cards

Y

yankee-flyer

Well Known Member
Has anybody REALLY tried to observe and write down all the information required for the flight test cards while trying to retain control of a relatively unfamiliar aircraft and maintain a watch for other traffic? I think I'm a reasonably competent pilot, but I'm not a graduate of a Test Pilot School!!
What happens if you don't return the PAP data cards to Van's or if they aren't 100% filled out? Do they repossess your airplane? Does it lose its ELSA certificate?

Personally, I'm MUCH more interested in flying the aircraft safely for the first few hours than I am sitting heads-down in the cockpit, solo, watching a still unfamiliar electronic panel, trying to punch the right buttons to call up the display with the required info, and then writing it down legibly in the small blocks required.

Wayne, who's way too old for all this
 
I believe you have to have those cards filled out in order to get out of Phase I. If you need more than 5 hours, then so be it.

I would suggest seeing if you could get someone on the ground to read off the questions and and write down the answers! Alternatively, you could just say the results as you fly, and write them down afterward.
 
Test cards and Phase 1

My FAA operating limitations say nothing about test cards. I only have to operate in phase 1 for 5 hours and make the required entry in the log book if everything is 'OK' - there is nothing about Van's test cards.
 
There are ways...

...to do this. The climb data is the hardest to document by hand. You need to write down Zulu times starting and finishing each 2000 foot altitude block and also the OAT at the middle of each block. HOWEVER, you can get all of this data by downloading the Dynon data log after each flight. Just write down the Zulu time beginning the climb so that you can find it in the data log later. There is a lot of stuff recorded in the data log but if you are willing spend a little time at the computer after the flight, you can fly the tests with a minimum amount of distraction flying the airplane.

I believe Van's considers deciphering the data logs to be worthwhile experience since they have you download and archive them after each test card.

The same holds true for the speed boxes. And, if you have the autopilot, you can just dial in the courses in the Heading Mode and let the autopilot hold the altitude while you watch for traffic and enjoy the ride :D. I think they intended the autopilot option for us old guys ;). Just remember to jot down the Zulu time before starting each block so you can find the data in the log. Then get the data from the data log after the flight.

Of course, you have to do all the stalls and other air work, but it's pretty easy to record the needed data on your clip board after each of these manuevers.

I interpreted the Operating Limitations to mean that I had to finish the Flight Test cards before making the required statement in the aircraft log book no matter how many hours it takes. Otherwise, I did not feel that I could certify in the log book that "the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operation characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation."

I was in no hurry to fly off the cards. I wanted to take my time with the new plane and I determined in advance that each of the 5 cards would take me more than 1 hour. Not being a test pilot either, I set goals for each flight that I could attain.

I found that flying the test cards gave me a very good indoctrination in flying this aircraft as just about every flight situation is addressed, at safe altitude. My test card data are not perfect, but I did them to the best of my ability, and I felt secure that I had done a good Phase 1 when I signed off the log book.

Tony
 
Last edited:
Test Cards and log entry

There have been literally thousands and thousands of E-AB planes - including around 6,000 of Van's designs - that were entered into Phase II operation after making that exact same log entry - all without 'benefit' of any test cards. Why would it be different now?
 
JohnF said:
There have been literally thousands and thousands of E-AB planes - including around 6,000 of Van's designs - that were entered into Phase II operation after making that exact same log entry - all without 'benefit' of any test cards. Why would it be different now?
Click to expand...

No different, I guess. The test cards are just an organized way to do the manuevers and execute the speeds, etc. I have never certified an experimental before, and not being trained as a test pilot I would have been at a loss to develop some sort of a test procedure before making the log book entry. The test cards make it easy, seems to me.

Tony
 
Helper on ground

My friend flew the first flight of his plane. Then he asked another very qualified pilot to do the flight testing while my friend stood on the ground with a hand held radio and recorded all of the data. The pilot read the instrument data as requested by my friend. They completed all of the flight testing in 4 hours. The job is easier with two people. The person on the ground calls out the maneuvers. The pilot flies the plane. The pilot's work load is easier if he lets the Dynon record the data. Like many tasks, there is more than one to accomplish the flight testing.
Joe
 
I have 30 hrs and still haven't completed all the test cards. I am not in a hurry as the FAA said 25 hrs in my case to satisfy the time required. They didn't say doodle about the PAP. Yes, it's near impossible to record all required and safely FLY THE AIRPLANE so I will do it in my time required whatever that is. I have purchased a notebook however, so that as Tony said let the Dynon do the work.
Dick Seiders
 
Just out of curiousity, why would you not want to find edges of the envelope for your particular airplane? All factory manufactured airplanes go through a card test for this very reason. Even Lockheed test flies everything they do to an F-16. How nice to know exactly what airspeed and configuration your plane will fall out of the air. Recording the info should be the least concern. Do it the way Tony says.
 
Checking the envelope

isn't a problem. I've done that with every airplane I've flown. Checking all that in the first 5 -10 hours while learning a new airplane AND new systems does appear to be a problem. If Van's doesn't really want you to do all that in the first 5 flights, that's fine, but I wish they'd say so. If they're willing to wait a couple of months for their info, that's differetnt, but that's not what the PAP implies.

Wayne
 
no timetable on sending the info in and no consequences. It would be to their advantage if you did not. Should a liability situation arise (with their name on the data plate) all they have to say to the jury is: the guy never test flew it as anyone would any factory plane. You can take your time to do it right...just do it for your own piece of mind.
 
Dynon has the ability to put a mark in the data long on command via a button push on the screen. This should help you find and decipher the correct places in the log later after the flight. Makes em easier to find and you do not have to be so concerned with the exact time...
 
Video?

A friend of mine just test flew his plans built aircraft (not an RV.) They mounted a camera to the right of the pilot focused on the instrument panel. That way all of the flight and engine instruments were recorded so he could focus on the aircraft.

Just a thought.
 
The weather has been a factor for me completing the test cards. It's hard to do a climb to 8000 ' if the ceiling is 3000'. I agree with Yankee Flyer that part of my phase I is just learning to fly my plane. I did 6 hours of transition training, but a few more hours just flying basic manuevers has helped me get more comfortable with my 12.
 
We couldn't fly off all of the checklists before signing off the airplane. There is nowhere within the area prescribed in our FAA operating limitation letter that has a density altitude below 5000' during daylight hours, so I signed it off without the climb-out tables completed. I'll go to a sea level airport to complete them.
My biggest complaint was the volume on the stall warning horn during stalls and slow flight. I ended up doing the 5 hours with my headset off, using earplugs. Finally took things apart to access the volume controls and now have all alarms set as low as possible.
When completed, I want to have the checklists on file with Van's Aircraft in case it becomes a factor when we sell the airplane someday.
 
yankee-flyer said:
isn't a problem. I've done that with every airplane I've flown. Checking all that in the first 5 -10 hours while learning a new airplane AND new systems does appear to be a problem. If Van's doesn't really want you to do all that in the first 5 flights, that's fine, but I wish they'd say so. If they're willing to wait a couple of months for their info, that's differetnt, but that's not what the PAP implies.

Wayne
Click to expand...
The PAP (production acceptance procedure) is a requirement of the S-LSA certification. This is the test program that each S-LSA that came off of a production line would be required to have done.
The FAA requires that any E-LSA kit be supplied with the same test program documentation since it is basically is the same S-LSA airplane only constructed at a different location than the factory production line.

A production test pilot can probably do it in five 1 hour flights. Most home builders probably would not. A more realistic estimate is about 10 hours.
Even though the E-LSA operating limitations don't specifically say the PAP must be complete before teh airplane can be signed out of its test phase, I believe the FAA's interpretation would be that it does (if you ever got into a boxing match with them about it).

In FAA Order 8130.2F, Section 8 (applicable to E-LSA) it says...

(4) An applicant seeking to obtain an experimental LSA certificate for a kit-built aircraft
should be advised that the aircraft will have to be in compliance with ? 91.319(b). To show this
compliance, the applicant must perform flight testing that addresses the requirements, goals, and
objectives of the applicable consensus standard acceptance flight test. The flight test program will be
developed in accordance with the manufacturer?s aircraft operating instructions, maintenance and
inspection procedures, and flight training supplement using the applicable consensus standard ground
and flight testing procedures in conjunction with the operating limitations assigned. A flight test
program demonstrates that the aircraft has been adequately tested and determined to be in a condition for
safe operation within the aircraft?s flight envelope in accordance with ? 91.319(b).

So, even though the E-LSA operating limitation don't spell it out. The DAR or inspector is supposed to verbally tell the builder that he is required to follow the test procedure supplied as part of the RV-12 documentation, to substantiate meeting the requirements of 91.319.

That being said...RV-12 builders should definitely always put safety first, and take their time. The PAP was actually written in a way to also help the new RV-12 pilot learn the flight characteristics of the airplane in a step by step manner.
 
I took 6 hours of transition training with Mike Seager, and now have 4 hours on my 12. I have only completed filling out 1 card. I have been loosely following the procedures in the next couple of test cards, but have not tried to fly the card exactly. Now that I have a few more hours in my plane, I feel more capable to fly the procedures and log the results. It seemed wiser to get comfortable in my plane before trying to emulate a test pilot. If I had been flying regularly the last 2 years, especially in something like an RV, I would have done it per the book. As it was I needed to sell my Warrior to afford my 12. I am in no rush, and will complete my sign off when I am completely satisfied that everything is working as it should. As an aside, my inspector only told me I had to fly 5 hours, and where. Nothing was said about the test cards.
 
Again, your experience towards the value of continued transition flying in a light aircraft during the building process. If you can't buy one, rent one. It does make a difference. Friends of mine that transitioned the other way, ultralight to RV12 didn't have near the excitement.
 
Mark Henderson said:
As an aside, my inspector only told me I had to fly 5 hours, and where. Nothing was said about the test cards.
Click to expand...

I do not mean to say that anyone is going against what they have been told...
All I did was quoted in post # 18 what the FAA order says. This is the rule book that inspectors / DARs use as a guide to how they issue an airworthiness certificate. It says what it says. Van's has done their part and provided the documentation they were required too. If DARs are not being instructed to follow this procedure doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
 
Scott, I am sorry if my post sounded negative. Mine was the 3rd RV-12 inspected by this inspector. He was very helpful in the inspection process. It was apparent that he was much more familiar with EAB than ELSA. I found your post helpful in what Vans feels is an appropriate fly off for the required test period. This is basically what I intended to follow, even if not in the same sequence.
I was going to start a separate post, but I will segue here. There are elements of the test cards which I have never done. I received my private rating in 1969. I have gone through a number of re-currency checks and bi-annuals since then. I have never been asked, nor have I ever done a stall except in level flight. The PAP asks for stalls with a 30 degree bank L and R. I don't think this is a maneuver that I will try for the first time in an airplane where I only have 10 hours. Is this a normal procedure? Even in my transition training all stalls were straight and level. Have I missed something all these years, or is this something that is outside the normal syllabus? I fully realize we are in essence test pilots. A factory airplane is put through rigorous tests by trained test pilot being delivered. The stall characteristics in a bank may be important for certification of a prototype. Is it normal that every production airplane must exhibit the same response? I do want to do a full and complete test of my airplane. I m curious I have had lazy instructors, or if banked stalls are the norm. Thanks.
 
Mark Henderson said:
Is this a normal procedure? Even in my transition training all stalls were straight and level. Have I missed something all these years, or is this something that is outside the normal syllabus?
Click to expand...

FWIW, my first banked stall was on my PP checkride... Went well enough though, not all that much different other than already having a wing low. Was in a plane I was very familiar with though...and it actually preferred to right itself. I've done them since, but that was during acro instruction.

No help on the 12 though. You just reminded me of a similar experience... :)
 
Mark Henderson said:
The PAP asks for stalls with a 30 degree bank L and R. I don't think this is a maneuver that I will try for the first time in an airplane where I only have 10 hours. Is this a normal procedure?
Click to expand...

Yes, this is a normal training maneuver. All were done at a safe altitude. We were taught these, besides straight-ahead stalls:

Approach stalls are stalls while gliding, engine idling, at approach speeds with approach flaps down, in a turn, usually to the left.

Departure stalls are stalls in a full-power climb attitude, both straight-ahead and in a turn to the left. Usually started from a maximum angle of climb attitude and airspeed.

Accelerated stalls (the acceleration was the 2 g turn, not the rapidity of the maneuver) were at a 60 degree bank, level, at whatever power was necessary to maintain altitude. These were in both directions.

These are still part of my basic airwork, when I go up to stay current. A bit of slow flight, a few of these, some turns about a point, then a few landings. Quite routine.

Speaking of slow flight - an hour with the stall warner blaring, with and without flaps and including turns, is an excellent exercise. Bring a safety pilot to spot traffic.

Most of the instructors I dealt with also insisted upon spins - don't try this with the RV-12. In fact my ex-wife had to do spins before the instructor would let her go solo. Earlier, and with a different instructor, I did spins after solo. In both cases the spins were done wearing parachutes in a spin-approved airplane.
 
Mark Henderson said:
There are elements of the test cards which I have never done. I received my private rating in 1969. I have gone through a number of re-currency checks and bi-annuals since then. I have never been asked, nor have I ever done a stall except in level flight. The PAP asks for stalls with a 30 degree bank L and R. I don't think this is a maneuver that I will try for the first time in an airplane where I only have 10 hours. Is this a normal procedure?
Click to expand...

I didn't get my private rating until 1977 so things may have changed but I was taught and was tested by the flight examiner, departure stalls (climbing turns, etc.) and accelerate stalls (a stall at something other than 1 G.).

I am not a CFI or a flight examiner but I am pretty sure that these are standard in training and flight checks for a private rating today.

I am pretty sure that all the flight procedures in the PAP flight test cards fall within what a person is expected to demonstrate if they took a private pilot check ride today.

Maybe some of the CFI's can confirm?

Regardless of whether it is required or not...may I suggest...
If you feel uncomfortable doing an intentional stall in any flight condition other than straight and level...Go get some training.

Stall training is meant to help you be prepared for an unintentional stall, not demonstrate that you can intentionally make one happen.
Unplanned stalls probably happen more often in a flight attitude other than straight and level. Particularly at low level, this is the type of unexpected stall that kills a lot of people.
 
Scott you are correct. Stall training both wings level and in turns has been a part of the Private Pilot checkride for as long as I can remember. I started flying in 1969. It's still in the current PTS. Your last paragraph regarding stalls and training is spot on.

Mark, go out and get with a competent, experienced old time CFI and get that complete stall series training. You've missed a critical part of your aviation education.
 
AOA

Unplanned stalls probably happen more often in a flight attitude other than straight and level. Particularly at low level, this is the type of unexpected stall that kills a lot of people.
Click to expand...
The reason for this is that airplanes stall at a higher airspeed while in a bank, for instance while in a steep turn in the traffic pattern or while buzzing one's relatives. Some pilots do not realize that the stall speed increases in a turn. Wings always stall at the same angle of attack (for any given flap setting). Angle of attack instruments have an advantage over airspeed instruments in preventing unintentional stalls. Navy pilots rely on AOA while landing on aircraft carriers. The Dynon D-180 has the capability of displaying AOA if the optional probe is installed.
Joe
 
Tony_T said:
No different, I guess. The test cards are just an organized way to do the manuevers and execute the speeds, etc. I have never certified an experimental before, and not being trained as a test pilot I would have been at a loss to develop some sort of a test procedure before making the log book entry. The test cards make it easy, seems to me.
Click to expand...

I used cards to do all the phase I tests on my aircraft (a 7). They were awesome I waited until I had a few hours covering the basics to keep brain overload from happening.
 
Extended climb test

This test was not a requirement for a UK permit to fly, so I never got around to conducting an extended climb test (beyond 5000 feet), until today.

In Scotland today we had wonderful wave clouds above a scattered lower layer, so I thought it would be fun to see if I could soar above the lenticular clouds.

The airfield is at 400 feet, so I started a full power climb immediately. I maintained a full power climb at 70-75 knots indicated until I reached 12500 feet at which point I gave up - no oxygen on board, and lenticular clouds still a few thousand feet above me.

The good news was everything remained in the green, and the plane still seemed willing to climb at around 500 fpm, one on board and 2/3rd fuel.

No worries for flying in Europe...

Cheers...Keith
 
I started this thread

so I suppose I'd better post what I did.

First thing, my FAR inspector (not a DAR) never asked about flight test cards-- it was the first -12 he'd seen so maybe he didn't know about them.
Second thing-- I'd been flying a Grumman AA-1 (original "slick wing" version) 60-75 hours per year and was used to the -12's flight control responses-- in fact a primary reason for selecting the -12 was that it handled (in the air) very much like the Grumman-- but WHAT a difference in takeoff and climb! Mike turned me loose after 3 hrs dual, so I suppose being current in a similar handling airplane helped.

I did the first card over the first two flights and completed the other 4 with about 6-7 hours on the airplane. I wrote the tasks in large letters on a kneeboard and had my helper on the ground with a handheld radio. He'd read the task, I'd confirm it, and then radio the results to him so I didn't have to write anything. The biggest surprise was the very quick right wing drop on some stalls--still haven't figured that one out as sometimes it just mushes and sometimes drops the right wing about 30 deg. I suspect it has to do with how much rudder I'm holding and how abruptly it's pulled into the stall. Wondering if a stall strip on the left wing (ala AA-1) would help.

One test card item I never did do. You're supposed to hold certain airspeed and power settings and then cycle the flaps 0- 1/2-full-1/2- 0 and see what happens. One point is 40 KIAS and full power. Sjnce the airplane lifts off at a speed greater than 40 kts. the only way I could see to achieve that would be full power, nose VERY high, and a pretty good sink rate. I assumed that Van's test pilot did that and survived but I just wrote on the card that I had no intention of putting the airplane in that condition intentionally and couldn't see how I could get there accidentally. Never heard anything back from Van's so I guess they accepted that.

Anyway, unless you understand how to get the data off the Dynon (and I never did get much I found I could use) two people make doing the flight test cards much easier. As everyone keeps saying, fly the airplane first and worry about details later.

Wayne 120241/143WM<
 
Besides the hard copy I received in the Van's final paperwork kit, is there a PDF download of these available anywhere?

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
Flt Test card

I don't think I will receive the test card from Van's since I am building my 12 as a EAB. Would someone email me a card and even a completed one with your findings to compare.

Thanks in advance
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top