Flight Crafters RV-12 QB Kit

[NCGAPilot]

http://www.flightcrafters.com/vansaircraft.html

Ran across this today, does anyone know if they have the OK from Vans Aircraft to sell the QB Kit or the RV-12 as an ELSA? Is this on the up and up?

 

[vernhendershott]

http://www.flightcrafters.com/vansaircraft.html

Ran across this today, does anyone know if they have the OK from Vans Aircraft to sell the QB Kit or the RV-12 as an ELSA? Is this on the up and up?

They do not need any approval from Van's to do what they say they do, it is no different than if Bob starts a kit and then sells it to John about half done. As this is an ELSA kit it is legal with the FAA to get any amount of professional help and pay for it unlike an EAB kit.

I do not know the people involved but there is no reason why this would not be a good operation. If you were a first time builder getting their help on several of the more fun tasks might be well worth the $ 45 dollars per day, things like fuel tank assembly, fiberglass work or canopy fitting are a lot more fun with help from someone who has done the work before and knows how to do it correctly.

Their price of about $ 10,000 for their quick build service and $ 20,500 for a full build is very fair and if some one wanted a RV-12 and did not have as much time to work on it as some others it might be a very good way to go.

Best regards,
Vern

 

[RV10Man]

If I'm correct, and probably not, (I'm sure I'll be told) but I think anyone can build an RV12 strictly for resale, be it sub kits or an entire airplane. I don't think they have to have the OK from anyone.

Marshall Alexander

 

[Peterk]

Correct

You are absolutely correct! Place is legit but pricey. A completed one is charging you about $60plus/hour for labor which is high considering that it doesn't take any education (besides reading, writing and math) to build one.

Pete

 

[vernhendershott]

You are absolutely correct! Place is legit but pricey. A completed one is charging you about $60plus/hour for labor which is high considering that it doesn't take any education (besides reading, writing and math) to build one.

Pete

Hi Pete,

I am not sure I understand your math, when I do the math your way, which is their labor price for a full build of $ 20,500 and then divide by $ 60 that comes to 341.7 hours. I do not think anyone can do a good quality build of a full ready to fly RV-12 in much less than 700 hours so the rate per hour comes down to less than $ 30 per hour or a gross wage of $ 60,000 per year, but wait they have to have a place to work and other overhead and taxes other than payroll so I think you may find that they would have a hard time paying themselves more than $ 20 per hour. I help my friends at this wage but at only $ 40,000 per year gross pay you would not be living very high off the hog.

You can not get very many A&P's to work for $ 20 per hour, I do not think of much you can get done today for $ 20 per hour so I kind of think that their offer is very fair and reasonable if they can do a good job as called out in the Van's plans and get the work done in a reasonable length of time.

Best regards,
Vern

 

[Dgamble]

It seems like an excellent price to me, especially when compared against comparably performing airplanes built overseas and costing 50% more.

 

[DonFromTX]

I agree Dave, it seems to be the best choice available to the fellow that really don't want to get his hands dirty or give up watching ball games on TV, yet really wants an RV 12. I think the record for building an RV12 is three months by one guy, worked long days too. I daydream about how much faster I could build the second one, not having to study the plans and wait for tools so much.
My biggest worry would be just how many short cuts in the process are made. Deburring and fluting can take a while, but could be bypassed if desired by a speed builder.
By the way Dave, I am almost caught up with you now!!!

 

[Dgamble]

My biggest worry would be just how many short cuts in the process are made. Deburring and fluting can take a while, but could be bypassed if desired by a speed builder.

According to their brochure, the $88,865 up & flying price with a single color paint job also includes "interior prime of all parts with Epoxy/Chromate primer." From that alone it seems that they aren't looking to cut too many corners. I agree, though: you'd want to have an interview with them before deciding. But you'd pretty much want to do when buying a homebuilt from anyone.

I'm also interested in their offer to rent building space for people that haven't got a good facility of their own. There's a small abandoned warehouse just around the corner from my airport; every time I drive by it I wonder if it could be re-purposed to a business like that. It's awfully hard to judge the market demand for something like that, though.

 

[DonFromTX]

I have a friend 40 minutes away from there who wants to build, but buying all those tools, and he has very limited space, has him looking at using their services. I certainly did not mean to insinuate that they DO take short cuts or do shoddy work, in case someone read my post that way. In fact power to them, I feel there is a good market for just what they are trying to launch. If it were not for the "gotta do it myself" attitude I have, it would probably have made more sense for me to have done it that way.

 

[Dgamble]

I certainly did not mean to insinuate that they DO take short cuts or do shoddy work, in case someone read my post that way.

I didn't read it that way, so no worries.

If it were not for the "gotta do it myself" attitude I have, it would probably have made more sense for me to have done it that way.

I thought the same thing! I started building my -12 because I really wanted to build an airplane, not so much because I wanted to own an RV-12. But then I flew one; now I want to get the building done and have a flying RV-12. I'm glad to be building it, but buying one already done would be good too.

 

[NCGAPilot]

Hmm I may buy the QB kit then, mainly because this will be my first kit aircraft build and I have absoutely no prior experience with sheet metal working, but I can do things like turn screws, pump in rivets and connect wires.

 

[MacPara]

The QB part seems to be that the empennage, the tail cone and the wings are already built. These are the easy parts of the build. Also while you go through them they develop your experience to challenge the more complex build of the fuselage. At least that's what I experienced. Thinking that I would have had to tackle the fuse without the previous experience from the tail section and the wings, would have probably shocked me as to the complexity of the build. Seriously, I think the QB kit won't really do that good in this configuration. Now, if they'd offer the fuse built, THAT would be a different story (and highly appreciated).

 

[rgmwa]

Your choice of course, but I agree with MacPara. The knowledge and confidence you gain from building the easier parts like the empenage and wings will be very useful when you move onto the more difficult parts. Also if you plan to maintain the aircraft later, that experience and familiarity with how it goes together will stand you in good stead.

 

[Dgamble]

The QB part seems to be that the empennage, the tail cone and the wings are already built. These are the easy parts of the build. Also while you go through them they develop your experience to challenge the more complex build of the fuselage.

From the web site:
$23,875.00
Includes Fastener, Empennage ,Wing and Fuselage Kits, tail cone joined if you want it.

That would still leave the canopy (which I haven't done yet, but I can't imagine it being trivial), but not much else aluminum-wise (now that you can buy an assembled fuel tank) if my finish kit is any indication.

Starting with the finishing kit would surely be a challenge, but it does seem to be a mostly different kind of work.

I wonder why they don't offer the third option, which would be complete through finish and just waiting for engine and avionics?

 

[chuckster]

If anyone is interested, I have an RV-12 for sale, complete airframe kits built less engine and avionics kits. See add in Barnstormers. $36,000.00

 

[videobobk]

I agree--this is a great price! It is only about $25,000 more than we are asking for our up-and-flying, brand new RV-12 built by Eagle's Nest. We are about one year out at this point, but you can spec your options, even paint/vinyl and still save over $20k. These kids are doing a great job and the idea of high school-built RV-12s is really catching on. Contact me now if you want to spec the plane the way YOU want it!

Bob Kelly

 

[splitty]

QB KIT

From the web site:
$23,875.00
Includes Fastener, Empennage ,Wing and Fuselage Kits, tail cone joined if you want it.

That would still leave the canopy (which I haven't done yet, but I can't imagine it being trivial), but not much else aluminum-wise (now that you can buy an assembled fuel tank) if my finish kit is any indication.

Starting with the finishing kit would surely be a challenge, but it does seem to be a mostly different kind of work.

I wonder why they don't offer the third option, which would be complete through finish and just waiting for engine and avionics?

This sure sounds like a godsend to some people at this price, I'm sure going to have a look at it..!!

 

[jet]

I have just noted this thread on the forum so thought I should comment. We built the first RV-12 to come out of Flight Crafters receiving FAA sign off on 22 November 2010 having started construction on 1 March 2010. We live in England and wanted to complete the aircraft without delay thus our decision in selecting Flight Crafters. We are also first time builders, therefore, having their technical knowledge at hand during the whole building process and help doing those "fun" jobs as someone mentioned such as fiberglass, canopy, etc was extremely helpful and time efficient. We were completely satisfied with their facilities, personnel and expertise and would be happy to chose them again. There is one other RV-12 in process at Flight Crafters as we left and I believe another one about to start. If anyone has any specific queries they can PM me.

John s/n 317