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Fisk arrival congestion photos needed

gossend

gossend

Well Known Member
Patron
I’m planning a presentation at the july chapter mtg on the recently “improved” FISK arrival. Does anyone have a Garmin or Dynon, etc screenshot of the traffic congestion at Endeavor Bridge at a peak time? Either OSH 2022 0r 23 - Sunday before the show would be best, I’ll bet.
 
Not sure if these are what you’re looking for, but they were taken 7/23/2023, and I hereby grant you worldwide rights to display them. 😃

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I was not there in 2023 and I don't think I got any screenshots in 2022, but if you want a "before" picture... The worst one in my experience was 2018:


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gossend said:
I’m planning a presentation at the july chapter mtg on the recently “improved” FISK arrival. Does anyone have a Garmin or Dynon, etc screenshot of the traffic congestion at Endeavor Bridge at a peak time? Either OSH 2022 0r 23 - Sunday before the show would be best, I’ll bet.
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July 22, 2018. 😳
 

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There's lots of challenges in doing the AirVenture arrivals, and years ago, I helped put the NOTAM into its present format. Along the way, I got to know the folks doing the work and how frustratingly difficult that work is. While it's natural to put improved in quotes, given the many opportunities for frustration, I personally would cut the NOTAM folks a whole lot of slack because I've seen what goes into it.

Your mileage, of course, will vary. In any case, good for you for putting together a presentation for your chapter, quotes or not!
 
Ed_Wischmeyer said:
There's lots of challenges in doing the AirVenture arrivals, and years ago, I helped put the NOTAM into its present format. Along the way, I got to know the folks doing the work and how frustratingly difficult that work is. While it's natural to put improved in quotes, given the many opportunities for frustration, I personally would cut the NOTAM folks a whole lot of slack because I've seen what goes into it.
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Those of us on the Front Lines of Vintage (with over 3.5 miles of flight line and taxiway), and the other ground operations areas of the field, have the opportunity to give input to those who are responsible for the NOTAM on a yearly basis. It is a LOT OF WORK and no one is going to think it is perfect and supposes that they could do a better job. The best people are on the job already with decades, in some cases, of experience. We have input to what is going out on the ATIS as well, sometimes changing by the MINUTE! That this is the WORLD'S BUSIEST AIRPORT it takes a LOT to get everyone on the ground (and, eventually, back off the ground again) safely. As Flightline volunteers, we are able to have direct communication to the Tower Boss who, of course, is in the tower cab, and with the Papa Operations crew (Papa is the main taxiway) who are 5 former tower controllers who work with us on the ground. We can talk through them to Fisk, if needed, and it is a well-oiled machine that has developed over decades starting with Papa Doug a former controller that started the vast improvement in communication with the different areas of the field and the tower. We can talk directly to the traffic controllers on the field, the MooCow, which are the Pink Shirts you see at the departure end of the runways. The tower knows they would not work as well without us and we, of course, have total faith in the tower crew. All of this is voluntary and there is a 2 year waiting list for controllers to work OSH. The Top Dogs up there are VERY well qualified to manage the traffic and teach those up-and-coming controllers. Those of you who have listened to the one-way auctioneer-like tower instructions know what I am talking about! They are THE BEST!

Perfect? No. It is always a work in progress. We learned a LOT from the cluster that was Terrible Thursday last year and that has caused changes. I, personally, think it is THE BEST CREW TO WORK WITH in a VERY high-stressed environment. Think you can do better? Come volunteer and show us how!

Ed_Wischmeyer said:
Your mileage, of course, will vary. In any case, good for you for putting together a presentation for your chapter, quotes or not!
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ANY teaching and learning that can be done is always a good thing. Never think you 'know all of this already' because it is always in constant flux. BUT: very doable! Again, 13,000 airplanes come and go in the 10 or so days things are happening.

See you at OSH!!
 
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Ed_Wischmeyer said:
There's lots of challenges in doing the AirVenture arrivals, and years ago, I helped put the NOTAM into its present format. Along the way, I got to know the folks doing the work and how frustratingly difficult that work is. While it's natural to put improved in quotes, given the many opportunities for frustration, I personally would cut the NOTAM folks a whole lot of slack because I've seen what goes into it

Your mileage, of course, will vary. In any case, good for you for putting together a presentation for your chapter, quotes or not!
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Ed,I apologize. I thought it was clever when I wrote it, but it feels kinda snarky now. I’ve done that approach 42 times over the years and have seen the improvements evolve. All of them and all of everyones efforts are sincerely appreciated. so, quotes retracted. (virtually)
 
I watched the EAA webinar last night and again today. It was good but lacking one thing that I thought would be a big help.

If you have ForeFlight with the 3d, a smart person could make a video showing the entire flight from each of the entry points and first time AV guys like me could watch. I may give it a try but not sure how it will come out.

It is worth watching the webinar .
 
rockwoodrv9 said:
I watched the EAA webinar last night and again today. It was good but lacking one thing that I thought would be a big help.

If you have ForeFlight with the 3d, a smart person could make a video showing the entire flight from each of the entry points and first time AV guys like me could watch. I may give it a try but not sure how it will come out.

It is worth watching the webinar .
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EAA has already made videos of this. Check them out at https://www.eaa.org/airventure/eaa-fly-in-flying-to-oshkosh/eaa-airventure-oshkosh-notam
 
gossend said:
Ed,I apologize. I thought it was clever when I wrote it, but it feels kinda snarky now. I’ve done that approach 42 times over the years and have seen the improvements evolve. All of them and all of everyones efforts are sincerely appreciated. so, quotes retracted. (virtually)
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Thank you. Ed is spot on and I suspect you meant no harm.

Years ago, when I was on the EAA Board, we were fortunate not to have a midair when everything got backed up and everyone was arriving at RIPON and then on the FISKE.

We discussed/debated many options but decided that there MUST be a change for greater safety. As a result, a LOT(!!!) of hard working people spent a lot of time going over multiple options. The one that was more popular at one time was one that I personally did NOT like. The one we have now is the one (or the type) that I (and obviously others) felt was the best approach.

The ADS-B plots of the last year or two may look horrible, but just imagine all of those planes being jumbled in 3-5 miles vs 30-50 miles.

Do I think there are other improvements that could be made? Sure! But I am not directly involved at present and thus would not be aware of potential "unintended consequences" , so I won't mention such at this time. You can bet though that EACH YEAR, there are sometimes subtle and sometimes not so subtle changes/improvements being made.
 
jclark said:
The ADS-B plots of the last year or two may look horrible, but just imagine all of those planes being jumbled in 3-5 miles vs 30-50 miles.
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I should add to my photos the observation that the arrival went reasonably smoothly - and I didn’t mean to suggest otherwise, so apologies for that. True, the guy in front of us varied his speed between 60 and 110 knots (ads-b ground speed data doesn’t lie…) and the guy behind us in the conga line passed us (on the right no less). But that was hardly EAA’s fault. I’ve got no complaints about the current procedures, and can only dimly imagine how much work went on behind the scenes.
 
Dugaru said:
Not sure if these are what you’re looking for, but they were taken 7/23/2023, and I hereby grant you worldwide rights to display them. 😃

View attachment 65085View attachment 65086View attachment 65087
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My wife and I are in that mess. The first screen shot must have been just before I bugged out to the North, It was my first time flying in and I couldn't stand people passing me on both sides and coming from the North over the lakes and cutting me off. There's a bunch of idiots out there!!
 
dwranda said:
My wife and I are in that mess. The first screen shot must have been just before I bugged out to the North, It was my first time flying in and I couldn't stand people passing me on both sides and coming from the North over the lakes and cutting me off. There's a bunch of idiots out there!!
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I liked the guy who skipped the whole process and just blew into the pattern, in the wrong direction no less. I mean, this would be dumbaxxeey of the highest order if it was merely a towered Class D airport as usual (and as charted), rather than literally the busiest airport in the world in the midst of a huge event!!
 
Dugaru said:
I liked the guy who skipped the whole process and just blew into the pattern, in the wrong direction no less. I mean, this would be dumbaxxeey of the highest order if it was merely a towered Class D airport as usual (and as charted), rather than literally the busiest airport in the world in the midst of a huge event!!
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Ya. Every once in a while you see a poor lost sole milling around aimlessly. Still, pretty impressed with the general order of things as most seem to get the Congo line.
 
Dugaru said:
I liked the guy who skipped the whole process and just blew into the pattern, in the wrong direction no less. I mean, this would be dumbaxxeey of the highest order if it was merely a towered Class D airport as usual (and as charted), rather than literally the busiest airport in the world in the midst of a huge event!!
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That was ***SCARY!!** to see even from the GROUND!

I think that I saw three "incursions". But the one that I remember most was from while at Homebuilt Camping and I looked up and saw this plane just "doing its own thing". Seemingly oblivious to all of then hundreds of planes going the OTHER way or on the OTHER SIDE of the runway!!!
 
Wow, watching all the line cutting , all there for the world to see on ADS-B.
I like N9606W at T=20:18. Gets kicked out after Ripon, wanders around Rush lake a bit, says "screw this, I ain't going all the way back!" and jumps in at Fisk.
Puckaway and Green Lake VP's seem to be a popular spot for cutting in.
Any video of "wrong-way"?
 
Yes, as the recent comments prove, it isn't necessarily the NOTAM, its the "pilots" (I use that term loosely) who aren't following the NOTAM. Was it a bonanza who came in wrong direction against traffic last year before executing a last-second go-around? I was watching at Classic Point slack-jawed. I've been at Portage on pre-show Friday watching the FBO staff offer refueling pilots paper copies of the parking signs and NOTAM and heard some old-boldies asking "why do I need that?" The EAA staff can bend over backwards to put the perfect plan on paper, offer videos and webinars, and it will still become a mess because people refuse to read the directions.

As an aside, I watched a gentleman in a Cherokee who must have had such terrible get-there-itis that he landed in windshear just ahead of a squall with three little kids on board. Don't be that guy. Divert if you have to and live to see next year's OSH.
 
Years ago, there was a guy in something like a Teenie 2 who landed wrong way, no NOTAM, no idea of what was going on, and his paperwork was not in order. The FAA grounded his airplane. A few days later, the plane was gone. IIRC, he flew home across Lake Michigan to be greeted by the FAA at his home airport.
 
Ed_Wischmeyer said:
Years ago, there was a guy in something like a Teenie 2 who landed wrong way, no NOTAM, no idea of what was going on, and his paperwork was not in order. The FAA grounded his airplane. A few days later, the plane was gone. IIRC, he flew home across Lake Michigan to be greeted by the FAA at his home airport.
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I heard that happened again either last year. Never heard any thing about it later, tho.
 
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