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First engine start, issues

C

carl nank

Well Known Member
I prepared for engine start today and I had some problems.

1. I have an IO 360 Superior engine. I activated the boost pump to prime the engine and tried starting the engine. I was getting popping and loud noises. I stopped the engine. I tried it again and still got popping noises.

I got out of the plane and found oil under the left exhaust pipe. The engine was pickled and before I installed the spark plugs I let the oil drain from the cylinders for a couple of days but apparantly oil was still in the cylinders. I do not know if that caused the popping or if it was too much fuel. I waited awhile and tried it again. I pulled the mixture back all the way this time, pushed it in some when started and and it went smoother. I opened the mixture up some and it finally started to idle better. I will be honest, it scared the c*** out of me!

I would like some opinions on what I did wrong and how to improve my technique.

2. Oil was throwing over the plane (cowl off). It seems to be the oil filter not tight enough. How do you all torque the oil filter to specs when you cannot get an wrence between it and the firewall????

3. I also had some problems with my Dynon EMS. The MAP pressure shows 61.4 all the time & The amps show -99 all the time, engine off or on. What gives with that?

At least it started.
 
Hi Carl,
Can you clarify the popping noise? Was it back-firing, or mechanical, like something was breaking? If it's backfiring, then that's fuel/air related.

Now, you mention that you "pulled the mixture back all the way"...you really shouldn't be doing anything with the mixture at all. Leave it full rich. I'm not sure what the symptoms of running too lean would be on a Lycoming-type engine, but other engines will experience backfiring or pre-ignition. This could be very destructive to your engine. My ECI engine manual says not to lean at all for the first 50 hours of operation.
 
lostpilot28 said:
Hi Carl,
My ECI engine manual says not to lean at all for the first 50 hours of operation.
Click to expand...

I wonder if somewhere.........the ECI manual has something in reference to high density altitude airports & "leaning". The Lycoming manual talks about full rich takeoffs, and back to full rich for landing; but then finally gets around to saying that airports above 5000' density altitude can require leaning. It's almost as if you have to look for it.

In this equation, we have Boise, Idaho at 2871', Hardin Kentucky around 580', and U42 (my airport near Salt Lake City, Ut) at 4607'. In my case, it's almost essential that we lean the engine right after startup. If we don't, it doesn't even sound good while taxiing around the hangars. And it's very noticeable on the takeoff run, if the engine isn't properly leaned.

Therfor, I wonder what ECI is really thinking, when it comes to high altitude airports. I for one, would never run full rich "up here".

edit: In fact, if the engine isn't leaned for altitudes around this area, you can count on having a "fouled" mag on the next runup, which had to be cleared by leaning until running rough at around 2000 rpm..

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
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My engine sounded like **** on the first start up because one mag was out of alignment. I had loosend & revolved it to tighten a bolt elsewhere. Put it back to a mark, but that didn't matter. Once it was re-timed, it ran great. In this case, it was running rough and popping on both mags, & smooth on the good one --- only.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
You asked about tightening the Oil Filter - if you can't get a wrench on it, the filters generally say right on the side that you can tighten them "3/4 to 1 full turn past gasket contact" - I find that works as well as a torque wrench, and it adheres to the manufacturers instructions!

Paul
 
Initial cold start procedure for an IO-360 is to prime throttle full open, mixture full rich, fuel pump on for a couple of seconds after pressure indication then off. To start throttle cracked, mixture idle cutoff, hit starter and when it starts increase mixture to smooth idle position.
If you primed and then tried to start with mixture full rich it probably flooded the **** out of it and caused the rough running. I'm surprised it started at all. Don
 
Carl, first of all you have NOT done any damage to your engine through detonation or pre ignition! Detonation happens at high power and high temp. Belive me just holding on the brakes you are nowhere the detonation zone. same with preignition...you simply have not run it. Long enough or hard enough. Now having said that I would check the timing and make sure the spark plugs are going to the correct cylinders. Full rich at idle then lean it out to make it runsmooth.....then go full rich for high power ops.

Frank
 
A bit late now for advice as you already succeeded in getting it started.

The preservative oil may have been an issue. I'm getting ready to fire up my new I0-360MIB from Lycoming. The instructions say to turn on the fuel pump and wash the oil from the inside of the cyls before attempting to start. I'll also do the"pre-oiling" after this but your issue may have been failure of all the oil to drain. this preservative oil is more "sticky". I'll follow the instructions and see what happens.
 
Just comments

I had trouble starting my new engine for Lycoming because initially I was not thorough in removing the long term storage fluids and the timing was off by about +65 degrees. It took some time to identify the timing problem without the LASAR timing box but once that was corrected it ran fine.

The oil leakage problem is serious. If it is from the filter being loose - tighten it! I use a filter strap wrench and basically follow the method described by Paul earlier. I took off with a hand tightened oil fitting on the oil cooler and destroyed the crankshaft, bearings, etc. - very expensive overhaul. The engine seized on the landing rollout. Don't try to fly it with an oil leak - you will often observe some pressure until there is no oil left.

Bob Axsom
 
Good advice

Since the popping quit on the 3rd start-up and I had a pile of oil under the exhaust pipes, I pretty much believe the oil in the cylinders caused the popping and banging noise.

I did the start up procedure pretty much as Yak Driver suggests except, never having started a new motor before, I left the boost pump on for more then a few of seconds. In fact I turned the boost on & off several times thinking I needed to pull the fuel all the way through the system. Me-thinks it did not take as long as I thought it might. After the noises, I got timid and left the mixture too far out (lean) hoping that would stop the popping and banging. Then the oil started to splash on my canopy and I shut it down to clean up the mess.

I ordered a oil filter wrench from ACS that has angles on it that maybe it will fit into that tight space between the filter and firewall. I will let you know if the wrench works.

Thank you all for your replies. I will keep you informed.
 
For the wrench i think I took a standard cheapo combination wrench and cut it in half on the little HF chop saw..The now short wrench stays flush with the firewall and does not hit the hinge at the top.

Frank
 
Regarding your bogus MAP and current readings, the current sense wires are on pins #24 & #25 of the DB37 connector and the MAP sensor is right next to them on pin #26. Sounds like pins 25 & 26 may be shorted together or perhaps swaped?
 
I has lots of poping and backfiring too

when I first started my Superior IO360. I concluded it was the preservative oil working it's way out the exhaust pipes. Not to worry. It took a couple starts and ground runs, to get it cleaned out. You will LOVE this motor!!!:D
 
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Working out the problems.

I found the problem with the Dynon EMS that showed up as reading of 61.4 IHG on the MAP gauge even with the motor turned off. I installed the 5v excitation wire in the ground slot (and vice versa), in the Weatherpeak sensor. :eek:

Tightened up the oil filter also. I used a borrowed circle clamp with a rubber tube under it. My wrench from ACS did not arrive yet.

Tomorrow I will take the plane out again and do the second engine start. I hope it goes better.
 
frazitl said:
when I first started my Superior IO360. I concluded it was the preservative oil working it's way out the exhaust pipes. Not to worry. It took a couple starts and ground runs, to get it cleaned out. You will LOVE this motor!!!:D
Click to expand...

We had the exact same thing on the Cozy for the first few hours on the Superior IO-360 we put in it.
 
Ironflight said:
You asked about tightening the Oil Filter - if you can't get a wrench on it, the filters generally say right on the side that you can tighten them "3/4 to 1 full turn past gasket contact" - I find that works as well as a torque wrench, and it adheres to the manufacturers instructions!

Paul
Click to expand...

I think Champion used to say that on their filters....but they no longer do. Now the manufacturer's instructions are to "torque to 16-19 ft lbs". I am surmising that Champion discovered that the 3/4 to 1 full turn method did not always ensure that the torque was within reasonable limits.
 
Today's engine run

I ran the engine again today and it sounded much better. In fact very good!Then I put the cowl on and decided to do a taxi run to burnish the brakes.

Before burnishing the brakes I did a run-up and when I got to 1200 RPM the brakes would not hold, so I aborted the runup until the brakes were burnished more.

Went to the other end of the runway and discovered my alternator was not charging the battery. So I taxied back to the hanger.

I think I got the RV-grin even though I was not flying yet...Called it a day as a pilot, to work on the alternator problem.
 
I torque the oil filter with a fish scale and a box end wrench. The wrench is about a foot long, so I pull on the other end with the scale until I see about 16 pounds. If you don't have room for a foot long wrench, you could cut one short as has been suggested and bend a pipe to put over it to get about a foot of arm (makes the math easy!).
 
Engine start per Lyc Manual

Straight from Lyc Operators Manual:
For Fuel Inj:
1. Prop --------- IN (High RPM)
2. Fuel Valve ------"ON"
3. Throttle ----- ? Travel OPEN
4. Mixture ------ IN (Rich)
5. Boost Pump ? ON
6. Fuel Press stable (3-5 sec)
7. Mixture OUT (Idle/cutoff)
8. Ignition Switches ? ON
9. Starter Key SW ? START
10. Mixture ------ IN (Rich) when engine starts.
11. Throttle ------ Set 1000-1200 RPM
12. Verify min OP (25psi) within 30 sec

Note that boost pump is left on... and there is no reason to shut it off as the Mixture control limits actual fuel flow. Shutting the boost pump off before starting results in no fuel pressure at time of start and delayed fuel flow during the first seconds of actual firing until the engine driven pp provides flow.
 
carl nank said:
I ran the engine again today and it sounded much better. In fact very good!Then I put the cowl on and decided to do a taxi run to burnish the brakes.

Before burnishing the brakes I did a run-up and when I got to 1200 RPM the brakes would not hold, so I aborted the runup until the brakes were burnished more.

Went to the other end of the runway and discovered my alternator was not charging the battery. So I taxied back to the hanger.

I think I got the RV-grin even though I was not flying yet...Called it a day as a pilot, to work on the alternator problem.
Click to expand...

Carl, be careful that you do not glaze your cylinders by running the engine for too long before you get into the air. It's expensive if you do that.
 
Here is a low tech solution to the O-360 oil filter torque issue.

Here is a low tech solution to the O-360 oil filter torque issue in engine compartments where a torque wrench simply does not fit.

wrenche.jpg


I used one ugly piece of steel with a slot cut out to fit the oil filter. The other end has an adapter welded to it that allows a torque wrench to be used.

Note the number 12lbs. Given that the length of the extension wrench affects the actual torque applied, we tested the torque wrench on a filter we could get to without the extension and torqued to spec. Then we checked torque using the extension device and determined that with the extension only 12lbs of torque was reqd.

If you make one of these, make sure you calibrate your wrench in the same way else you will over tighten or under tighten.

Nifty, eh??
 
Carl, Read your break in instructions carefully. Do NOT do any more taxiing as you will glaze the cylinders. Usually you will do around three runs of about 5 min with a full power check at the end of the last run. First flight will be at over 75% power full rich for an hour. That's the problem with a new airplane and new engine, the first flight you will be going like a bat outa ****. Don
 
I have the break-in instructions

and I plan to follow them. Unfortunately, not only does the DAR want engine start and some taxi time before he will come, I also think I needed to understand if my instruments and systems work prior to getting in the air.

For example, while doing my taxi run I was able to get the airplane fast enough to see the ASI come up on the Dynon at around 30 mph. I think that is too important to not do first. Also I needed to operate the brakes. I was not able to do a run-up to check the mag's because the brakes would not hold at about 1200 RPM, way before I got to 1700 RPM for the mag check. Also needed to test the constant speed prop for functioning properly.

So I guess these things need to be balanced out.

Anyway, I am really looking forward to the thrill of running this plane max-out:D, But I want to be as safe as I can.
 
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