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Fire in the cockpit

Captain Avgas

Well Known Member
In the Experimental category we are at liberty to put whatever materials we feel are appropriate into our aircraft cockpits. We are not bound by choosing materials in conformity with the flammability requirements of FAR Section 25 (Federal Aviation Regulations Section 25) as are the manufacturers of certificated aircraft.

And that is all very well as long as we realise what that means. Unfortunately the issue of flammability is complex and very few builders of amateur built aircraft have a good handle on the ramifications. This is not surprising when you consider that there are literally dozens of different relevant tests including, but not restricted to, flammability, smoke developed, and spread of flame. It can all become a bit bewildering.

Fortunately I was a director of an engineering consultancy that specialised in the design of large scale permanent fabric tensile structural roofs for public buildings (mostly from PTFE glass fabrics) and consequently I have a reasonable knowledge of flammability testing of fabrics.

Over the years I have seen many of my fellow builders fill their cockpits with highly combustible materials including seats, trims, carpets, sound insulation.....and even heat insulation.

The main problem in the Experimental category stems from builders choosing fabrics and trims that comply with motor vehicle standards for flammability rather than aviation standards. In essence most materials complying with motor vehicle standards (such as FMVSS 302 - Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards) are in fact highly combustible synthetics. Once ignited they tend to exhibit a rapid spread of flame and emit droplets of flaming resins that can rapidly cause horrific flesh burns.

Fortunately there is a way that even the uninitiated builder can make a safe decision on the trims he puts into his aircraft cockpit without having to be an expert in fabric flammability. He can get a sample piece of the material he is proposing to use and he can set it alight with a cigarette lighter. If the material continues to burn when the cigarette lighter is removed (the independent source of ignition is removed) then it is NOT suitable for use in a cockpit. If, on the other hand it self extinguishes when the independent source of ignition is removed...it is OK to use. It's that simple. No rocket science involved.

The most important thing to understand is the Oxygen Index of the material. The Oxygen Index of a material is that level of oxygen, as a percentage of the total gas mix, required to support the continued combustion of the material in the absence of an independent ignition source. Air has approximately 21% oxygen therefore materials with an Oxygen index of 21 and below will burn readily in air once ignited. Conversely those with an Oxygen Index above 21 will self extinguish once the initial ignition source is removed.

In other words the simple cigarette lighter test will indicate whether the material has an Oxygen index above (or below) 21.

The question may be asked as to why some fabricators of seats and trims for Experimental aircraft use fabrics conforming to FAR 25 and others use highly flammable motor vehicle fabrics. The answer to that lies in the cost and the availability of FAR 25 fabrics. As a rule of thumb aviation grade fabrics cost approximately three times that of motor vehicle fabrics. In addition motor vehicle fabrics can be readily purchased off-the-shelf from a myriad of vendors by the square metre in a huge range of textures and colours. On the other hand aviation grade fabrics are usually only sold by the roll (or multiple rolls). This means that a fabricator wishing to use aviation grade fabrics has to tie up a huge amount of capital to offer a modest range of colour and pattern options. Only fabricators turning over a LARGE VOLUME of aviation trims can generally afford to do this.

The issue of flammability in the cockpit is not about choosing fabrics and trims that are non-flammable.....there is no such thing. The issue is about choosing fabrics and trims that do not exhibit a rapid spread of flame in air. In the end it's all about buying a small amount of time....time to get on the ground...or simply time to just exit the aircraft.

I hope I've been able to throw some light on this topic so that builders can make a more informed decision.

And incidentally, regardless of what trims you opt for, don't forget to always have a Halon fire extinguisher on board.
 
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Thanks for the interesting report. Some time back I bought a clear liquid which you apply to carpets , fabrics and trims that are flammable .
I tested the difference it makes and it was huge. Before application, some of my samples went up in flames, literally.
After application the flame would not continue but just die down and smoulder. I used a gas torch for ignition, not a lighter.

Why I bring this up is that even if someone has a highly flammable cockpit he need not throw all away and start over. This flame inhibitor will possibly save your life ,and all at a marginal cost.

I cant remember the name of it. The company I bought it from closed down. It was a upholstery shop. I am sure someone on this site will know what and where to get it.
 
If you're interior is on fire, its already too late. I doubt the flame resistance of any materials will make any difference at that point.
 
Fire

Avgas, your point is well taken. I have give a fair bit of thought to cockpit contents, but am not sure of a few issues. I have heard some on this board claim all conduit should be metal etc. Most fires and fatalities i have read reports on where NOT caused by conduit fumes or seats burning but a major fuel breach. So fast, little could be done.
So, if one only uses non flamable seats, insulation/soundproofing etc...that is adequate no? Dont want to be paranoid,, i am not running metal conduit through my whole plane but some degree of protection only makes sense.

As an aside, in CANADA we are forced to use STAINLESS heat vents in the firewall and while that seems silly to some, i agree that it makes good sense. The engine compartment is more likely to house a fire then inside the cockpit and the alumuminum door will melt immediatly leaving a 2" hole in the firewall. Not good. I know stainless isnt perfect but if it gives you more time to get er down, that seems wise. Further, i posted while ago about automatic fire suppression systmens like the feature in kitplanes a while back and got no real response. An automatic fire system under the panel and fw forward seems like a good option. Many of the crashes with homebuilts seem to immediately ignite. Not saying an auto extinguisher would save all, but might save some? No idea...just wondering out loud.
 
And incidentally, regardless of what trims you opt for, don't forget to always have a Halon fire extinguisher on board.
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Halon in the cockpit is bad ju ju unless you are wearing an oxygen mask. NOT something you want to do.
 
And incidentally, regardless of what trims you opt for, don't forget to always have a Halon fire extinguisher on board.
__________________


Halon in the cockpit is bad ju ju unless you are wearing an oxygen mask. NOT something you want to do.
How about one of those race car systems:

http://www.firecharger.com/index.html

looks good to me. I always thought foam is better solution due to being more permanent - it lasts longer than blast of powder/halon so it can extinguish fire even if you won't cover it all the first time. Isn't it why fire fighters use foam?
 
Halon

Thats the problem, fast fire suppression, but halon will kill ya. So...if there is a fuel tank breach....and quick fire....there really is no fix? Your done i guess.
So, one can worry about electrical fire, keep flammables and toxic fumes minimized (through material selections)...but if i am flying and i have fire in the cockpit...one way or the other...my halon is being discharged...and i will take me chances..or bust the canopy or something...geeez. Just gives me the willies thinking about it. Not a fun topic, but a good thing to give consideration to when building.
 
Halon in the cockpit is bad ju ju unless you are wearing an oxygen mask. NOT something you want to do.

Actually, the best thing is not to have a fire which requires you to use an extinguisher! But if you do, given the various choices, halon is probably one of the best. I agree that you don't want to try and breath a pure Halon environment (won't work!), but an RV cockpit is pretty well ventilated, and ventilatable - use the extinguisher, hold your breath if you wish during that time, and then when the fire is out, the cabin ventilation will bring in oxygen and flush the Halon in short order. Remember to remove the source of ignition, or the fire will just rekindle! That means shutting off power, pulling breakers - whatever is required to get the heat energy removed.

For reference, the closed environment of the Space Shuttle is projected with Halon, and procedures are to use it first, then don O2 masks second, and then begin a cabin flush (opening up a vent to vacuum and an inlet supply from N2 and O2 systems) to get rid of the Halon. Yes, Halon is not the best thing to have around, but it is far better than fire!

(BTW, the most realistic safety brief I ever got was before boarding an Army helicopter. The crew chief showed us the locations of the portable extinguishers, and said "in the event of a crash and fire, use them to put out the people - the aircraft will burn forever!")

Paul
 
It is called "Flame Stop I-DS" and for about $30 you can treat your entire interior for an extra level of protection.

Thanks for the interesting report. Some time back I bought a clear liquid which you apply to carpets , fabrics and trims that are flammable .
I tested the difference it makes and it was huge. Before application, some of my samples went up in flames, literally.
After application the flame would not continue but just die down and smoulder. I used a gas torch for ignition, not a lighter.

Why I bring this up is that even if someone has a highly flammable cockpit he need not throw all away and start over. This flame inhibitor will possibly save your life ,and all at a marginal cost.

I cant remember the name of it. The company I bought it from closed down. It was a upholstery shop. I am sure someone on this site will know what and where to get it.
 
Avgas, I don't doubt you know your stuff, but the auto fabric I used for the Interstate (no fire specs when the Interstate was certified) would have passed your test easily--I tested it before I bought it. Some auto fabrics will pass, so no need to go strictly with aviation fabric, just test it before using it, right?
 
It is called "Flame Stop I-DS" and for about $30 you can treat your entire interior for an extra level of protection.
Is this the same stuff that caused major corrosion problems when treated fabric came in contact with aluminum?

I for one am not worried about cabin fires because if something is going to cause my seat to burn, it will probably burn my big ?ol butt and whatever cotton pants I?m wearing at the time.
 
Avgas, I don't doubt you know your stuff, but the auto fabric I used for the Interstate (no fire specs when the Interstate was certified) would have passed your test easily--I tested it before I bought it. Some auto fabrics will pass, so no need to go strictly with aviation fabric, just test it before using it, right?

No, one does not need to go with aviation grade fabrics. Some auto materials with a high natural fibre count will be OK....and any grade of leather for example should be fine.

I'm not saying don't use auto fabrics. I'm just saying Experimental builders need to be particularly suspicious of auto fabric (regardless of what "impressive" flammability test data comes with it)...suspicious enough to test a sample by putting a flame to it. Most auto fabrics these days tend to have a very high synthetic fibre count and some of them are REALLY flammable.

When you ignite a sample of fabric until the flames take hold and then withdraw the ignition source one of three things will happen. Firstly the flames may flicker and die...that's good. Secondly, the fabric may keep burning at a steady rate...that's not so good. And thirdly, the combustion process may accelerate....that's very very bad.

I suspect most builders who have auto fabrics and carpets in their flying planes have never tested a piece for flammability. If they had done so, some of them might have got a really big surprise as to how flammable the material actually is. Some auto materials go "whooomp" when you put a flame to them.

What I'm advocating here is that it simply makes sense for builders to do a quick and dirty test on the flammability of the materials they are proposing to put in their cockpits. I'm sure any reputable upholsterer would be willing to supply a small sample of seat material or carpet.
 
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Fire Suppression

This article gives a quick rundown on suppression systems used in racing:
http://stockcarracing.automotive.com/49451/scrp-0708-fire-suppression-systems/index.html

I looked into the firecharger system (link above by Tomasz) but since it's water-based, the bottle must be protected from freezing...either removed from the plane or kept in a warm(er) environment than our typical midwest winters.

Halon still looks like the best option.
Mike
 
I for one am not worried about cabin fires because if something is going to cause my seat to burn, it will probably burn my big ‘ol butt and whatever cotton pants I’m wearing at the time.

The seat material is not the only danger. It might be the carpet on the floor adjacent to the firewall that might ignite. And it may not be the fire that kills the pilot. He might be asphyxiated by the smoke coming from just a small part of the carpet burning. Firefighters know that more people die from smoke asphyxiation in fires than they do from burns. There's the classic case of the RV8 pilot who became enveloped in smoke and rather than choke to death he simply opened the canopy in flight and jumped out (with no parachute).

It's probably very difficult for the average builder to contemplate exactly how things might pan out if they experience a fire in flight. At any rate, low flammability trims can only be an advantage.

Not many years ago parents let their children wander around near open fires dressed in lightweight synthetic nightware. Many children were horribly burnt when the highly flammable fibres ignited and burnt rapidly. Nowadays parents are generally more knowledgeable and astute about these matters.

Perhaps with time the Experimental building fraternity will also become more tuned in to the dangers of installing highly flammable synthetic fabrics and trims in the cockpit.
 
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There's the classic case of the RV8 pilot who became enveloped in smoke and rather than choke to death he simply opened the canopy in flight and jumped out (with no parachute).

That's my plan! Except with a parachute. Halon extinguisher, portable one-shot oxygen bottle. If that doesn't work, I'm outta there. I've landed in a plane way fewer times than I've ever taken off in one anyway so the prospect doesn't bother me in the slightest :D
 
The seat material is not the only danger. It might be the carpet on the floor adjacent to the firewall that might ignite.

I guess it's time to get out the various brands of Walmart carpet, along with my acetylene torch and a piece of stainless steel acting as the firewall.

In all seriousness, I just want to know, what it's going to take (ignition point), without a breach through the firewall, or a firewall that's cherry red. If it's cherry red hot on the cockpit side, then I might have bigger problems.

edit: I just have this feeling, that if the firewall is already hot enough to ignite the carpet, then I'm going to feel like I've already been "cooked" due to the very small cockpit area. I am not convinced that fireproofing an RV sized cockpit is all that beneficial.

Going a bit farther................since I was once involved in a house fire, where two young boys passed out and turned blue due to smoke inhalation, I'd just as soon inhale a few times, than jump off a high rise such as the World Trade Center. I found out first hand that the smoke is very toxic, and won't take much to pass out. I've also had the "pleasure" of passing out for nearly 20 minutes in an industrial accident, when beginning to get crushed by a large overhead crane. Only took about a second before I was totally unconcious. I suppose the body and mind just has it's own way of dealing with pain.

BTW ---- both boys survived, and so did I... :)

L.Adamson
 
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Flammability of RV Interiors, Clothing and concerns about FLEECE (Polyester)

...Not many years ago parents let their children wander around near open fires dressed in lightweight synthetic nightware...

Many years ago, I worked for a company which developed a synthetic fiber specifically for children's pajamas. A fire retardant was added to the polymer in the fiber manufacturing process. I'm not sure if that product is still made as the company I worked for then doesn't make any acrylic fiber now.

At another company, I was involved in setting up an NBS (National Bureau of Standards) carpet flammability tester for the carpet testing lab where I worked. It was very alarming how some carpet samples burned.

While we are talking about flammability of fabrics, I will add that I personally will not fly with a polyester shirt, jacket or any polyester piece of clothing. This includes my trips on commercial aircraft. There have been burn patients who would have survived if the burned polyester clothing had not adhered to their skin. Enough said, except to say check your FLEECE jacket for fiber content.

Avgas, I'm glad you initiated this thread as I plan to take some extra precautions when I get to the point of planning my interior. (It'll be awhile at the rate I'm going.)

Don
 
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If you're interior is on fire, its already too late. I doubt the flame resistance of any materials will make any difference at that point.

I've got to agree with Bob here. I feel the best protection is to make sure a fire never starts in the first place buy using the BEST fuel sytem components, proper electrical system fusing, proven installation methods (E.G. no presurized fuel in cockpit) and the best maintenance procedures of any system on your airplane.

I still carry smoke hoods, and a halon bottle, but realistically, can never forget the guy who jumped out of his burning RV without a parachute. He said it all.

Even a whif of fuel vapors inside a small airplane is cause for grounding. None are acceptable...ever.

Wish us all luck...

Bob
 
Fire in the cockpit & clothing

Just another few words here about cockpit safety. Much of the clothing that we wear is made from either cotton or is petrol-chemical based. The petrol-chemical based clothing burns well unless it has been treated. Might be wise to at least consider that when flight testing, during maintenance etc.
 
Classic Aero

I used Classic Aero Designs for my interior. Now I am wondering if the materials are low flammability.

Anyone know?
 
Halon Will NOT Kill Ya!

Thats the problem, fast fire suppression, but halon will kill ya. So...if there is a fuel tank breach....and quick fire....there really is no fix? Your done i guess.

I believe you are mistaken about "Halon will Kill You".

Halon was an excellent fire suppression system widely used in computer rooms (and lots of other places) but was banned along with Freon as the purported big ole ozone hole burner (I still believe that was a bunch of tree hugging carp). But for closed places like cockpits and computer rooms, it is a very effective fire suppression system that you can be in the room with. But if the room is on fire, you do definitely want to evacuate - mostly because of the fire. Halon does not remove oxygen from the room, and it is not poisionous. Some one else can verify this, but that is my understanding from years back when I worked in a computer room that was protected by halon. More info is at http://www.h3raviation.com/
 
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Thats a pretty nice system. I think it might work in an airplane. And the best part is, you get to use your lungs again after the fire is out.

DM


How about one of those race car systems:

http://www.firecharger.com/index.html

looks good to me. I always thought foam is better solution due to being more permanent - it lasts longer than blast of powder/halon so it can extinguish fire even if you won't cover it all the first time. Isn't it why fire fighters use foam?
 
I used Classic Aero Designs for my interior. Now I am wondering if the materials are low flammability.

Anyone know?

My wife and I just visited the Classic Aero facility last month.

Very impressed with both the products, and the people.

Yes they are either treated or naturally low flammability. Depends on the product. Real leather doesnt burn well, cloth is treated.
 
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