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Faith over fear.....

Brantel

Brantel

Well Known Member
Up until yesterday, I really had not put myself under any additional risk since Van's filed Chapter 11. Sure I did agree to modify my finish kit order to accept a new higher price but that did not cost me anything out of my pocket up front. The bottom line is I really had no choice unless I wanted to abandon my build and sell it for pennies on the dollar.

That all changed yesterday when I got my final payment request and I made a significant additional fund transfer to Van's that was likely my single largest payment I have ever made to them at one time even though I built an RV-7 and a partial RV-10. I am not going to lie, I felt a large lump in my throat when I pushed the submit button!

Today I am staring at the Power Plant kit order form with the intention of placing my order today along with another very large fund transfer after which Van's will be in control of an amount of my money that puts two lumps in my throat not to mention eventually the balance will need to be paid and then the cycle repeats for the avionics kit.

There are some folks on here that can scoff at that amount of money and they would never miss it if something goes south. Well, while my family and I have been blessed financially over the years, we still try to live within our means and be good stewards of what God has blessed us with. We survive, have a few unnecessary possessions and hobbies, and take vacations occasionally. That being said, our modest home is paid for and we are making good progress toward being able to retire someday. Make no mistake about it, building a $150K toy without taking on debt is a commitment and sacrifice for our family. To take a hit for what we have invested so far in this build may not break us, it would sure sting....a lot!

The point of all of this is that I choose faith over fear that Van's will follow thru with their end of the bargain. To Dick, Greg, Rian and all of the other employees at Vans, know that this is a leap of faith in you but please don't let me and my family down!
 
Brantel said:
That all changed yesterday when I got my final payment request and I made a significant additional fund transfer to Van's that was likely my single largest payment I have ever made to them at one time……… I am not going to lie, I felt a large lump in my throat when I pushed the submit button!

Today I am staring at the Power Plant kit order form with the intention of placing my order today along with another very large fund transfer after which Van's will be in control of an amount of my money that puts two lumps in my throat not to mention eventually the balance will need to be paid and then the cycle repeats for the avionics kit.
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I feel your pain. I am at the same exact point in my build, and also made the final payment on the finish kit yesterday. Probably going to wait a while and catch up the build before thinking power plant/avionics (I’m already semi-retired, and ensuring my kids will have to make their own way since I’m using up their inheritance!). Nothing like blind trust…….
 
My understanding from the plan is any new funds are kept in a separate account offering some protections if they don’t deliver.
How would that all flush out? No idea. But, they can’t use your funds like they did before, robbing Peter to pay Paul if you will.
 
JonJay said:
My understanding from the plan is any new funds are kept in a separate account offering some protections if they don’t deliver.
How would that all flush out? No idea. But, they can’t use your funds like they did before, robbing Peter to pay Paul if you will.
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Yes, that was the deal they made with the court (albeit, Van's asked for it, the court thought it was unusual but they agreed anyway). The account is just another bank account for Vans and not a true escrow account. Van's can legally access the money as soon as they "start production" on the order. Not sure what that means for orders that are basically pass thru like Lycoming engines and propellers. Since RV-12 powerplant and avionics kits have parts that are provided by Van's, I imagine these are treated much like airframe kit orders. It is also unclear as to when a particular airframe, powerplant or avionics kit is "In production" since some parts are made weeks or even many months before a kit is crated. There is also the unlikely at this point risk that Van's ends up in Chapter 7 where that separate account would most likely vaporize.

Bottom line is the separate account is a good thing but it does not eliminate all of the risk. I would have much preferred to see a true escrow account for amounts above a certain threshold and a more clearly defined explanation of exactly when funds can be accessed.

It is what it is and hence the "faith" that it will all go as planned. :)
 
I see things differently. My RV-14 will be a ($300k) toy and I'm using "non-essential" money to pay for it. I wouldn't be building it unless I could afford to lose it. In other words, if I couldn't afford to have that money tied up in an airplane (finished or stalled permanently by Vans closing it's doors), it would be irresponsible for me to spend the money in the first place. But that's just me. It sounds like others are more willing to take chances with their "essential" money.
 
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Brantel said:
Up until yesterday, I really had not put myself under any additional risk since Van's filed Chapter 11. Sure I did agree to modify my finish kit order to accept a new higher price but that did not cost me anything out of my pocket up front. The bottom line is I really had no choice unless I wanted to abandon my build and sell it for pennies on the dollar.

That all changed yesterday when I got my final payment request and I made a significant additional fund transfer to Van's that was likely my single largest payment I have ever made to them at one time even though I built an RV-7 and a partial RV-10. I am not going to lie, I felt a large lump in my throat when I pushed the submit button!

Today I am staring at the Power Plant kit order form with the intention of placing my order today along with another very large fund transfer after which Van's will be in control of an amount of my money that puts two lumps in my throat not to mention eventually the balance will need to be paid and then the cycle repeats for the avionics kit.

There are some folks on here that can scoff at that amount of money and they would never miss it if something goes south. Well, while my family and I have been blessed financially over the years, we still try to live within our means and be good stewards of what God has blessed us with. We survive, have a few unnecessary possessions and hobbies, and take vacations occasionally. That being said, our modest home is paid for and we are making good progress toward being able to retire someday. Make no mistake about it, building a $150K toy without taking on debt is a commitment and sacrifice for our family. To take a hit for what we have invested so far in this build may not break us, it would sure sting....a lot!

The point of all of this is that I choose faith over fear that Van's will follow thru with their end of the bargain. To Dick, Greg, Rian and all of the other employees at Vans, know that this is a leap of faith in you but please don't let me and my family down!
Click to expand...

We toured the facility in May, within a week of exit plan approval. The facility was buzzing with workers, work being performed, and stock on the shelves.
 
I’d like to meet the guy who coined the term “Disposable Income”.... I don’t have any.
 
bertschb said:
I see things differently. My RV-14 will be a ($300k) toy. I wouldn't be building it unless I could afford to lose it. In other words, if I couldn't afford to have that money tied up in an airplane (finished or stalled permanently by Vans closing it's doors), it would be irresponsible for me to spend the money in the first place. But that's just me. It sounds like others are more willing to take chances with their money.
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I might be wrong, but I don’t think there is a very high percentage of builders that would be able to walk away from a $300K investment (or even half that) without it affecting their life in a way that they hadn’t planned on, and that would change that aspect of their life permanently. To say that spending money on something that brings you enjoyment is “irresponsible”, because loosing it would burden your future plans sounds kind of inconsiderate to me. It sounds like Brian (Brantel, the other Brian) has his priorities in order. It’s just that, like me and many others, if this goes sideways - like Vans going under - would make it impossible for many of us to continue as an airplane owner. Doesn’t mean that our family would go without basic stuff we have, but this aspect of our lives that we’ve chosen instead of a second home, a boat, exotic vacations, etc, would likely not happen. For some of us, discretionary income has its limits. I look at it like this - we are EAB builders. We didn’t buy a Cirrus, or new Bonanza because……. we couldn’t afford it (plus we like to build). The $300K homebuilt is a relatively new thing in amateur built airplanes - I’d say the last 10 years or so in the EAB market. The increasing thirst for ‘MORE’ has changed the landscape, and that affects all of us. I don’t believe Brantel needs to worry, but he’s definitely not being irresponsible.
 
Scott Hersha said:
...I don’t think there is a very high percentage of builders that would be able to walk away from a $300K investment (or even half that) without it affecting their life in a way that they hadn’t planned on...
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I agree!

Scott Hersha said:
...To say that spending money on something that brings you enjoyment is “irresponsible”, because loosing it would burden your future plans sounds kind of inconsiderate to me.
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I didn't say that.

Let me try again - Once I'm done building my airplane I hope to fly it for 20 years. During those 20 years I have no access to that $300k and that's OK. I don't need that money for anything else like living expenses, a new roof, retirement, unplanned emergencies, unknown future medical issues, etc. If I needed that money for any of those things, it would be irresponsible for me to use it for an airplane.

Now if somebody else finds it an acceptable risk to build an airplane with money they may need in the future for something critical, that's fine with me. That's their choice. Everybody has different levels of risk. But for me it would be irresponsible. I don't have enough money to take chances like that. For me that means 100% of the funding for my airplane build is 100% not needed for anything else and never will be. Hope that makes more sense.

Scott Hersha said:
I don’t believe Brantel needs to worry, but he’s definitely not being irresponsible.
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I agree!
 
I paid for my finish kit on May 20th and it was shipped about 10 days later. I'm waiting on delivery and some backordered parts are already on the way. They are making good progress, they didn't use to ship that quickly after final payment pre-bankruptcy. Shipping was 60% more than last year; it may be worth to get a couple of quotes. I was busy and wanted it leave Van's ASAP so I elected to go with the only quote Vans received.

While I'm happy to get my kit, Vans remains on a short leash as far as trust is concerned because they barely responded to emails since the bankrupcy and I'm still upset with the way the contract modification went down (the sample contract and the modification contract had different language despite being marked as the same version). I never thought trust would be the issue with Vans. Given my distrust, I was intentional in my method of payment so that I could claw back the funds should they fail to deliver. It's my understanding that final request payments go directly to the operating account, only deposit go to a segregated account. It may initially called it an escrow account but it's not, and Van's or creditors could go after those funds.

I am pleasantly surprised with how quickly my kit shipped and hope others get the same service. I'm glad I'm not building 12 which gives me the freedom to buy the firewall forward and avionic through third party -- I don't think I'd be willing to make those deposits. Maybe in time, fear will go away and Vans will be able to rebuilt its reputation as a trustworthy company.

I look forward to getting back to building; I sidelined the project when I expected the company would go bankrupt and bought a Mooney. My objective when I bought the kits was to fly this year so, in a way, I accomplished my goal.
 
bertschb said:
I see things differently. My RV-14 will be a ($300k) toy and I'm using "non-essential" money to pay for it. I wouldn't be building it unless I could afford to lose it. In other words, if I couldn't afford to have that money tied up in an airplane (finished or stalled permanently by Vans closing it's doors), it would be irresponsible for me to spend the money in the first place. But that's just me. It sounds like others are more willing to take chances with their "essential" money.
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All I can say is 'WOW', homebuilding for the 'average' guy has gone the way of home ownership for the young, unobtainable for all but a few.
I suspect the homebuilding market will cool off quite a bit in the future, average folks can't afford to build, and rich guys will just buy Cirrus or Bonanza.
 
Walt said:
All I can say is 'WOW', homebuilding for the 'average' guy has gone the way of home ownership for the young, unobtainable for all but a few.
I suspect the homebuilding market will cool off quite a bit in the future, average folks can't afford to build, and rich guys will just buy Cirrus or Bonanza.
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I agree. And it's interesting to see that Vans recovery plan has them selling kits at the Pre Covid rate, not the 2000 kits a year they were selling.

If you're looking to buy a used aircraft would you really pay $300K for an experimental RV-14? or look more to the certified market?

I personally think home building will get back to what it used to be years ago, a cheap way into flying.
Used mid time engines, fixed pitch props, VFR avionics.

An RV-7/8 slow build kit is $50k, $20-25K on a used engine (maybe more, haven't looked at the market recently), $2-3k on a Prop, $10K on avionics. Thats still a whole lot of aircraft for less than $100K.

You don't have to spend $300K on an RV-14.
 
Jonnyb said:
I agree. And it's interesting to see that Vans recovery plan has them selling kits at the Pre Covid rate, not the 2000 kits a year they were selling.

If you're looking to buy a used aircraft would you really pay $300K for an experimental RV-14? or look more to the certified market?

I personally think home building will get back to what it used to be years ago, a cheap way into flying.
Used mid time engines, fixed pitch props, VFR avionics.

An RV-7/8 slow build kit is $50k, $20-25K on a used engine (maybe more, haven't looked at the market recently), $2-3k on a Prop, $10K on avionics. Thats still a whole lot of aircraft for less than $100K.

You don't have to spend $300K on an RV-14.4
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Yes the experimental market has cooled somewhat, and not necessarily because of Vans and their issues, but the fallout of other manufacturers from the Vans thing. And yes, pricing has put alot of builders out of the market. However, weve seen some indications from other orders that things may have turned the corner---or at least moving in that direction. Material costs, especially aluminum, has incereased over the past 4 years to where some manufacturers cant afford to build their plans, and sell them at a low enough price to attract sufficient orders, and a high enough profit to pay for the increaased production. Some manufacturers have closed which narrows the field of choices. It would be interesting for someone like Kitplanes (Hey Marc) to do a study on the remaining manufacturers, their plane models and kit pricing. Certainly we could all walk around OSH and see for our selves, (well some of you can) but I think getting the information out there will help. As for Vans, we HAVE seen an increase in our orders from them to supply FWF and Brake hose kit packages mostly for RV10 and RV14s. So, I suspect they are selling and delivering kits. But It sure would be nice to get the pricing down to a reasonable level for all kit manufacturers so builder dont have to spend $300K on a RV14. Some will anyway with all the bells and whistles that the aftermarket can provide. When I started my Rv7A back in 2015, I figured I'd have about $125K-130K in it complete. Well thats out the window now, and the project is sitting---due to 'other' life circumstances. I think im in the same boat as alot of guys.
 
Jonnyb said:
You don't have to spend $300K on an RV-14.
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Very true. You could build one for a LOT less (e.g. second hand partially built kits, used steam gauges, used engine and prop, no paint, no interior, etc). But, you could spend more as well. I could have opted for a full IFR panel, Control Approach rudder pedals, Evoke paint job, CF prop, etc, etc, etc. That would have pushed it closer to $350k 😲

As a new builder who had kits delivered just as the LCP's hit the fan and bankruptcy started, it has been an interesting experience. But, I'm happy with the way things turned out at Vans. It was really nice to see Dick himself get involved in saving the company he started. I have every confidence that Vans will be around well after my flying days are over.

My finish kit should be available any day now and I'm not nervous at all about sending the money for it. On the contrary, I'm looking forward to it. I need that kit to continue building this fall.
 
If it makes anyone feel better, I was at Van’s this morning (and home by noon - man, I love the RV-3…..) and I don;t think I have ever seen so much activity. The place is hopping, there are employees everywhere, and stuff stored in all sorts of temporary tents/buildings. Hardly the sleepy little business it was the first time I visited….
 
Ironflight said:
If it makes anyone feel better, I was at Van’s this morning (and home by noon - man, I love the RV-3…..) and I don;t think I have ever seen so much activity. The place is hopping, there are employees everywhere, and stuff stored in all sorts of temporary tents/buildings. Hardly the sleepy little business it was the first time I visited….
Click to expand...

I think if Vans could produce an easy to build, cheap, RV-3 type aircraft it would do a lot to open up the home build market.
 
jsalley said:
I feel your pain. I am at the same exact point in my build, and also made the final payment on the finish kit yesterday. Probably going to wait a while and catch up the build before thinking power plant/avionics (I’m already semi-retired, and ensuring my kids will have to make their own way since I’m using up their inheritance!). Nothing like blind trust…….
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Make me almost ashamed I slow built my RV-7 for under 47K. Almost...God Speed Brian...you'll make it 'cause you do have faith.
 
Jonnyb said:
I think if Vans could produce an easy to build, cheap, RV-3 type aircraft it would do a lot to open up the home build market.
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You mean, compete against the Panther? Given how small the single-seater market is, I don't think Van's would do that. (Edit: Note that, while early Panthers were LSAs with 100hp, most now seem to have O-320s, so, very comparable with an RV-3).

Also, keep in mind that "easy to build" and "cheap" are somewhat antagonistic requirements: Pre-fabricated parts (cut from tube or extrusion, or CNC-milled), and the tight tolerances required for pre-punched holes in sheet metal, come at a cost. There's a reason why an RV-14 kit costs more than an RV-7 kit, and why an RV-7 kit costs more than an RV-4 kit; You can see the correlation between cost and ease of assembly.

FWIW, looking around the web... A Panther kit (which has a welded-steel-tube center fuselage but is otherwise similar to an RV) seems to cost a little under $30K. (I'm pretty sure that engine and instruments are not included). Sonex's single-seater kit, the Onex, is $38K, including the engine and instruments. The two-seater Sonex - again, including the least-expensive (but new!) engine and instruments, is $50K. So, the budget options are out there. You just won't get "Total Performance". (Sonex airplanes are slower and less roomy than RVs, but they can fly aerobatics, are arguably just fine for local flights, and can go on the occasional long trip if you have the patience and either pack light or go alone).
 
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I'm currently building the -10 and will need to place an order for the finish kit sometime this year (hopefully). I'm also hoping for the best and I appreciate the updates from those who have visited the factory recently.

Per the mention of the Panther, a buddy of mine is currently building one. I have helped him pick up the wing and fuselage kits at the freight depot and haul to his house. It is an interesting little kit. He has a corvair motor built to go onto it. He opted to dimple and use the flush pulled rivets, and no priming. I do envy those two choices as I'm prep'ing parts for primer......

Altho, big picture, the -10 is a better fit for what I want to do.

-Brad
York, PA
 
One builder at the airport sold his Glasair Sportman and bought an incomplete Panther project. The kit is definitely interesting. The fuselage assembly is a pre-welded chomemoly spaceframe. The aluminum skin is rivet on, not unlike his previous Sportsman project. The wings are designed to be removable and they are kept aligned by Delrin blocks that are bolted to the chromoly frame, where the spar carry though box is usually located in our RV design. The airplane is definitely diminutive compare to my RV8 and it looks smaller than the RV4. I am surprise we don't see many more Panther flying. The airplane designer said the plane emulates the RV in term of handling. Using pop-rivets, it should go together much faster than a comparable RV.
 
I picked up my RV-7 finish kit today; I'll most likely complete the inventory this weekend. One of the back-ordered items will likely be here this week.
 
Regarding Walt's post I agree on the Cirrus. A new Bonanza doe not exist for all practical purposes. If you ordered a new one you might get it in a year. Or you can buy a nice sounding used V tail for 200K.
I don't know who the buyers are for the Cirrus.
The dirty little secret is what happens to a plastic airplane when the exhaust/turbocharger fails and the engine catches on fire.
I built my first airplane in 1964 for $2200. My Pitts in 1977 was right at $10k with a quality rebuilt 0 360. I flew each over 1000 hours.
The current prices are not sustainable.
 
jrs14855 said:
I don't know who the buyers are for the Cirrus.
The dirty little secret is what happens to a plastic airplane when the exhaust/turbocharger fails and the engine catches on fire.
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This is kind of a weird post. Who says a plane will catch fire if a Turbo fails? CFRP is auto extinguishable and more burn through resistant than aluminum. Why would that be a "secret"? If Carbon Fiber and aluminum are bad what should we make airplanes out of. You might have meant to say something else?
Kirk
 
jrs14855 said:
Regarding Walt's post I agree on the Cirrus. A new Bonanza doe not exist for all practical purposes. If you ordered a new one you might get it in a year. Or you can buy a nice sounding used V tail for 200K.
I don't know who the buyers are for the Cirrus.
The dirty little secret is what happens to a plastic airplane when the exhaust/turbocharger fails and the engine catches on fire.
I built my first airplane in 1964 for $2200. My Pitts in 1977 was right at $10k with a quality rebuilt 0 360. I flew each over 1000 hours.
The current prices are not sustainable.
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The buyers for the Cirrus are those who can afford it; not saying it is worth it, but that is an individual decision.

Can you provide data to substantiate your "dirty little secret" claim?

...and in the 70's gas was 26 cents a gallon. You cannot live in the past.

As far as sustainability, I would tend to agree but the market seems to disagree. Things are worth what people are willing to pay for them...right, wrong, or otherwise.
 
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