Engine prices

[jimbom]

Lycoming should not increase prices for orders they took....they did not go into chapter 11. this is a free pass for them...if they take advantage of me ill walk.

Whether Lycoming gets more money or not, you will never know. For all we know, Van's may convince Lycoming to take less money so those 450 orders can go through. Van's will certainly raise the price because they can no longer cover all the deposit $ we gave Van's. It's not right nor fair, but Van's is in survival mode.

With about $100k already sunk in this project, I've got no choice but to root for Van's.

 

[Majorpayne317641]

It will take months, but not months of your time. Ship the case to Divco. Get it back in a month or so. Same sort of thing with the crank. Ditto with sending out the rods, gears out for crack check. Cylinders... rebuild or bore and go oversize or just replace w/new. If replace w/new expect many months of waiting for parts. Cam and lifters - buy new parts.

It is mostly a task of being the general contractor - seeing all these sub-tasks get done and that you aren't missing some gasket when it is time to assemble it.

And spend uninterrupted hours of dimensioning before final assembly! That’s what is key to all of this, do not skimp on this part. Use micrometers and bore dial gauges to make sure everything is in the lycoming specs.

 

[dmattmul]

When I bought a prop, The Hartzell B.A. through vans was around $8,500. The whirlwind 300 series was $12,500. Now Whirlwind doesn't even list their pricing, just says call for a quote. I don't know about MT, but for the B.A.Hartzell could almost double the price and still be in the ballpark of Whirlwind.

They did!! WW 3 blade CS composite just arrived was $ 13,750. (Love it) Hartzell 3 blade composite over $ 22,000. WW spinner was $ 600.00 Hartzell spinner over 2K.....(Pricing from Hartzell 2 months ago, same WW)

 

[blaplante]

What's the ROE (return on investment) for the improvement in fuel economy for a CS prop? I mean a 3 blade Catto is $3500 per website.
OK, I get that you'll get better climb performance with a CS... but these planes perform pretty nice with a fixed pitch.
And many CS props need overhauls at some number of hours / years, so that's another running cost.
Maybe a 2 gph savings in cruise? So break even in 5000 hours (ignoring cost of a governor)?
I also get that the resale with CS will be better, but are you willing to tie up $10,000 extra for that eventual payday?

Not trying to flame, guys, I've flown CS. I like! But I really haven't convinced myself that the price is justifiable.

 

[Dugaru]

What's the ROE (return on investment) for the improvement in fuel economy for a CS prop? I mean a 3 blade Catto is $3500 per website.
OK, I get that you'll get better climb performance with a CS... but these planes perform pretty nice with a fixed pitch.
And many CS props need overhauls at some number of hours / years, so that's another running cost.
Maybe a 2 gph savings in cruise? So break even in 5000 hours (ignoring cost of a governor)?
I also get that the resale with CS will be better, but are you willing to tie up $10,000 extra for that eventual payday?

Not trying to flame, guys, I've flown CS. I like! But I really haven't convinced myself that the price is justifiable.

I've been thinking along the same lines. I bought an RV-9A with a Hartzell CS prop and I love it, but with Hartzell basically doubling its prices (or worse!) I'm going to think long and hard about whether I still need a CS when this one needs the inevitable big AMU$. I mean, as you point out, an RV is a pretty good performer with a fixed pitch.

Does anyone in experimental land make blades that fit a Hartzell CS hub? My ignorance is total, but my frugality is powerful.

 

[AlexZouw]

I've been thinking along the same lines. I bought an RV-9A with a Hartzell CS prop and I love it, but with Hartzell basically doubling its prices (or worse!) I'm going to think long and hard about whether I still need a CS when this one needs the inevitable big AMU$. I mean, as you point out, an RV is a pretty good performer with a fixed pitch.

Does anyone in experimental land make blades that fit a Hartzell CS hub? My ignorance is total, but my frugality is powerful.

GT propellers in Italy. GT

 

[Dan 57]

are you willing to tie up $10,000 extra for that eventual payday?

Not everything is about K$... and airplanes of this category tend to be expensive. Aircraft with a speed ratio such as those encountered in RVs really deserve a CSP.

Being able to operate in/out of fields < than say 1'000ft, and then cruising at 150kts in the eerie quietness of 2'000 or less RPM, the added precision when flying formation, these are some of the benefits. The fuel savings will be negligible in any case.

Ok, I now seem to recall that the pros & cons of fixed vs CSP have been already been discussed a few times here

Ah yes, engine prices...

 

[jim skala]

Really?

The engine is, at most, 30% of the total aircraft price. If it goes up 20% on the engine cost, then that is .30/5 of the total aircraft cost, or 7.5% of the total aircraft cost. Quite honestly, if a cost increase of 7.5% is enough to close the door for you, then you didn't belong there in the first place. I'm sorry to say that, but you seriously HAVE to allow for unexpected expenses. If 7.5% tips the cart for you, then the cart was not going to survive in the first place. We routinely tip double that in a restaurant, come on.

I really REALLY want more people in experimental building - but there is a definite gap between "Kumbaya" and reality. For most of us, that gap is TIME. When I started building my first plane, I had absolutely zero business being in the "plane owner" or even "plane builder" club - but I knew that someday, somehow, I was going to get there. I paid cash as I went, when I could, if I could - and I waited when I couldn't. I bought a used, rebuilt engine. I bought second-hand avionics. I bought used tools. I had a solid 5-yr plan that only took 8 years. I never gave up. I never doubted that I could pull it off - only the timeline.

I don't remember who the quote is attributed to, but "If you think you CAN do a thing, or you think you CANNOT do a thing, you are probably right."

Henry Ford: Whether a man thinks he can or not, he is right.

 

[airguy]

What's the ROE (return on investment) for the improvement in fuel economy for a CS prop? I mean a 3 blade Catto is $3500 per website.
OK, I get that you'll get better climb performance with a CS... but these planes perform pretty nice with a fixed pitch.
And many CS props need overhauls at some number of hours / years, so that's another running cost.
Maybe a 2 gph savings in cruise? So break even in 5000 hours (ignoring cost of a governor)?
I also get that the resale with CS will be better, but are you willing to tie up $10,000 extra for that eventual payday?

Not trying to flame, guys, I've flown CS. I like! But I really haven't convinced myself that the price is justifiable.

Your math isn't working out there...

For your 2gph saving, that's $10-$12/hr at todays fuel prices. A $15,000 prop is paid for well inside the first TBO.

And as others have pointed out, sometimes it's not all about the dollars. Sometimes it's a combination of "I want" and "Because I can".

 

[blaplante]

Your math isn't working out there...

For your 2gph saving, that's $10-$12/hr at todays fuel prices. A $15,000 prop is paid for well inside the first TBO.

And as others have pointed out, sometimes it's not all about the dollars. Sometimes it's a combination of "I want" and "Because I can".

Ah correct. I skipped a step. Say $11/hour $12,000 difference in prop price (including the governor), pays for in 1090 hours. Assuming you have $12K available to invest.
OTOH, I still don't have half that number of hours on my plane 8 years later.
From https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...eller-maintenance-major-repairs-and-overhauls
"overhaul guidelines are 5 to 7 years in service"
If I follow that guideline... now I'm due for a prop overhaul having not yet paid off the prop.

I'm still not sold on spending 5x more, despite having flown CS and liking them. If it was 2x more, or 3x...

Besides "I want" ... Sometimes it is also peer pressure!

 

[spatsch]

Ah correct. I skipped a step. Say $11/hour $12,000 difference in prop price (including the governor), pays for in 1090 hours. Assuming you have $12K available to invest.
OTOH, I still don't have half that number of hours on my plane 8 years later.
From https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...eller-maintenance-major-repairs-and-overhauls
"overhaul guidelines are 5 to 7 years in service"
If I follow that guideline... now I'm due for a prop overhaul having not yet paid off the prop.

I'm still not sold on spending 5x more, despite having flown CS and liking them. If it was 2x more, or 3x...

Besides "I want" ... Sometimes it is also peer pressure!

I think trying to rationalize once hobby is a dangerous thing to do. Next thing you know you realize airline tickets are cheaper... .

The way I look at props in my totally biased view is that people with constant speed prob love spending time on the ground doing more maintenance. People with fixed pitch prop like spending more time flying as they climb/fly slightly slower.

Pick what you like ... .

Oliver

 

[JonJay]

I don’t spend any more time on my cs than I do on my fixed pitch. Every 7 to ten years, the c/s goes in for overhaul.
What maintenance issues are you referring to that take keep people on the ground?
I heard a lot of arguments both ways, but this is a first .

We have a lot of newbies here, so let’s make sure we keep to the facts.

 

[spatsch]

I don’t spend any more time on my cs than I do on my fixed pitch. Every 7 to ten years, the c/s goes in for overhaul.
What maintenance issues are you referring to that take keep people on the ground?
I heard a lot of arguments both ways, but this is a first .

We have a lot of newbies here, so let’s make sure we keep to the facts.

Preventive.

As you say yourself there is one overhaul in 7-10 years which will generate more maintainance downtime then you saved in flying 7-10 years for sure. Also are you saying you have no additional check items on your conditional inspection checklist?

As fixed pitch climbs/flies a bit slower I hope its obvious that you fly more with fixed pitch to get to the same place. I like flying so that's OK for me. I am not trying to tell you its OK for you... .

Oliver
p.s. I am curious how people came up with the 2gal/h savings too... . I would be very surprised if you can save that much in cruise if you are lean of peak (8gal/h)... . I guess you save some on the faster climb but again if you lean in climb even if you average over any longer flight I would like to see the data for 2gal/h savings ... .

 

[blaplante]

...
p.s. I am curious how people came up with the 2gal/h savings too... . I would be very surprised if you can save that much in cruise if you are lean of peak (8gal/h)... . I guess you save some on the faster climb but again if you lean in climb even if you average over any longer flight I would like to see the data for 2gal/h savings ... .

"people" ... that was me. I tossed 2 gph out as a wild guess. I was thinking the difference between spinning at 2650 rpm in cruise versus 2300. But that might not be valid as an engine won't make as much power at 2300 and so the cruise speed might be less. I also assumed both would run either ROP or LOP to take that out of the picture. I just pulled out my Cessna 182T manual to see cruise differences between high rpm and lower rpm, but they don't quote anything more that 2400 rpm.

 

[Jim F]

Not many used IO-390s around, or I’d be taking that route.

When I bought my IO-540 for my 10 I ordered the prop at the same time.
I later saw the prices on those from L & H and was stunned by how deep the discount was by going through Vans.
Within a year I saw the engine prices for a Lycoming advertised in Trade-a-plane for 30% more than the previous year.
I believe that we were getting a fantastic deal by going through Vans and I think what they charged was a pass through to Lycoming. I may be wrong but I expect that the price of an engine through Vans will depend on Lycoming not Vans.
We shall see……

 

[N82VM]

When I bought my IO-540 for my 10 I ordered the prop at the same time.
I later saw the prices on those from L & H and was stunned by how deep the discount was by going through Vans.
Within a year I saw the engine prices for a Lycoming advertised in Trade-a-plane for 30% more than the previous year.
I believe that we were getting a fantastic deal by going through Vans and I think what they charged was a pass through to Lycoming. I may be wrong but I expect that the price of an engine through Vans will depend on Lycoming not Vans.
We shall see……

The price will not increase, Lycoming set it. Only number of times you are asked to pay a deposit will increase. That number will be 2

 

[spatsch]

"people" ... that was me. I tossed 2 gph out as a wild guess. I was thinking the difference between spinning at 2650 rpm in cruise versus 2300. But that might not be valid as an engine won't make as much power at 2300 and so the cruise speed might be less. I also assumed both would run either ROP or LOP to take that out of the picture. I just pulled out my Cessna 182T manual to see cruise differences between high rpm and lower rpm, but they don't quote anything more that 2400 rpm.

I don't really have any good data either. I don't have wheel pants on my RV-8 as I frequently go into rough fields so my RV is certainly NOT optimized for speed but I still get 160kts cruise lean of peak at about 8gph. 8gph is pretty much max power I can make at that altitude with my none turbo charged IO360 so even with a constant speed prop you will burn that if you optimize for speed (max power). Van's advertises 177kts with the IO360 and a C/S prop. So that's about 10% faster. Now some of the difference comes from the missing wheel pants I am sure (people claim about 3-5kts) but lets just assume its all propeller then you get 10% of 8 gal or 0.8 gal/h. That's why I was skeptical about 2gal/h... .

You would really have to fly the same airplane with two props and compare the performance to get a real understanding though... .

The biggest thing I like with C/S props is actually how they help you slow down ... . So there are certainly lots of benefits and you certainly need them for the bigger engines... but I agree with you I don't see money saving being one of them... .

Oliver

 

[RV6_flyer]

Oliver
I am curious how people came up with the 2gal/h savings too... . I would be very surprised if you can save that much in cruise if you are lean of peak (8gal/h)... . I guess you save some on the faster climb but again if you lean in climb even if you average over any longer flight I would like to see the data for 2gal/h savings ... .

My O-320 (Carb 160 HP) RV-6 with constant speed prop burns 1.5 GPH less gas when I lean but it costs 10 KTAS. You cannot use horsepower for speed if you do not feed the horses. (23 square power setting / 7.3 GPH / 150 KTAS vs turn mixture in for peak speed / 8.8 GPH / 160 KTAS with slightly higher MAP because of increased airspeed. Only thing touched was mixture.)

 

[jimbom]

The price will not increase, Lycoming set it. Only number of times you are asked to pay a deposit will increase. That number will be 2

So Van's makes zero on the resell? We know that Van's and Lycoming are renegotiating something. My guess is we'll pay the 25% deposit 4 more times.

 

[bertschb]

My guess is we'll pay the 25% deposit 4 more times.

If that were the case, why would Vans send senior staff to meet with Lycoming and why would it take so long to announce their plan? That seems unnecessary if we're simply losing our deposit. I do think I'll pay more for my engine but I don't expect to lose my entire deposit. We should know within a week or so...

 

[Pdp7427]

If that were the case, why would Vans send senior staff to meet with Lycoming and why would it take so long to announce their plan? That seems unnecessary if we're simply losing our deposit. I do think I'll pay more for my engine but I don't expect to lose my entire deposit. We should know within a week or so...

Im guessing that they're asking Lycoming to finance their shortfall of lost deposits to some extent. give them a line of credit under which to make up the shortfall they face. Of course, we will be the ones to ultimately fund it through (hopefully) reasonable increases on pricing. there is a certain point at which a price increase will drive deposit holders to cut losses, files claims, and seek alternatives to their original order through Vans. We will face an increase and it won't feel good, but it will allow us all (Vans, Lycoming, 3rd Part Suppliers, Builders, etc) to hopefully stay on track long term.

 

[N82VM]

So Van's makes zero on the resell? We know that Van's and Lycoming are renegotiating something. My guess is we'll pay the 25% deposit 4 more times.

They made the money when Lycoming set the price which is the same day I made the order and sent a deposit. I should only owe the remaining 3/4. I anticipate most likely that I will pay 1/4 deposit twice plus the remaining 3/4. I will fill file a claim and shop elsewhere before I give them any more money.

 

[jimbom]

They made the money when Lycoming set the price which is the same day I made the order and sent a deposit. I should only owe the remaining 3/4. I anticipate most likely that I will pay 1/4 deposit twice plus the remaining 3/4. I will fill file a claim and shop elsewhere before I give them any more money.

So we're saying the exact same thing.

 

[jimbom]

If that were the case, why would Vans send senior staff to meet with Lycoming and why would it take so long to announce their plan? That seems unnecessary if we're simply losing our deposit. I do think I'll pay more for my engine but I don't expect to lose my entire deposit. We should know within a week or so...

Yes, I was saying we'd have to pay more, and my guess is we'll pay 25% more. That is no different than losing our deposit.

edit: It depends on when you ordered. Lycoming has raised prices about that much since I ordered and the case may be that since Van's is short our deposits, that they have to cancel and start all new orders with Lyc. In that case, Lyc may not be willing to honor the cancelled price. Of course, this is all speculation which is supposed to be settled by today.

 

[maxmirot]

Yes, I was saying we'd have to pay more, and my guess is we'll pay 25% more. That is no different than losing our deposit.

edit: It depends on when you ordered. Lycoming has raised prices about that much since I ordered and the case may be that since Van's is short our deposits, that they have to cancel and start all new orders with Lyc. In that case, Lyc may not be willing to honor the cancelled price. Of course, this is all speculation which is supposed to be settled by today.

You say no and loose you place in line with Lycoming.
You might to confirm delivery time and cost with another engine builder.
It might end up with longer delivery times with an Non Lycoming builder as some other Vans customers with have the same idea.

 

[N82VM]

Yes, I was saying we'd have to pay more, and my guess is we'll pay 25% more. That is no different than losing our deposit.

edit: It depends on when you ordered. Lycoming has raised prices about that much since I ordered and the case may be that since Van's is short our deposits, that they have to cancel and start all new orders with Lyc. In that case, Lyc may not be willing to honor the cancelled price. Of course, this is all speculation which is supposed to be settled by today.

If that is the case, my engine was 41k now its 56k. So even if my 10k deposit is honored I'll be paying the deposit again plus some.

 

[lykowdk]

You say no and loose you place in line with Lycoming.
You might to confirm delivery time and cost with another engine builder.
It might end up with longer delivery times with an Non Lycoming builder as some other Vans customers with have the same idea.

Does anyone even know their place in line? I was supposed to get my engine last July, then it became October, and now it is unknown. My attempts to contact Lycoming are unanswered.
I will be quite disgusted if I am asked to pay more. It is not my fault that Lycoming/Vans took orders they were unable to fulfill.
I have been sitting on the remaining balance for my engine since I ordered it. It wasn't an issue of me not being able to pay, but of Lycoming not being able to deliver, and Vans spending my deposit.

 

[N82VM]

Does anyone even know their place in line? I was supposed to get my engine last July, then it became October, and now it is unknown. My attempts to contact Lycoming are unanswered.
I will be quite disgusted if I am asked to pay more. It is not my fault that Lycoming/Vans took orders they were unable to fulfill.
I have been sitting on the remaining balance for my engine since I ordered it. It wasn't an issue of me not being able to pay, but of Lycoming not being able to deliver, and Vans spending my deposit.

same here

 

[JeremyL]

Uggghhhh this waiting game without communication is painful! Probably will send the emails right as they are walking out of the door for the weekend. Not sure if the delay/ wait is a sign of good or bad

 

[QuixoteAg]

I was curious about the status given the statements in the last creditor meeting that i viewed so i emailed Vans and received a response this afternoon.

I placed my engine order and paid the 25% on Oct 3, 2023.

the response to my email this afternoon asking about timing of contract communication from them and received:

"You should be getting the notice in the next few days and theres be a couple of weeks to respond"

Thought I'd share and help fill the void that we're all experiencing.

 

[JohnBruns]

I was curious about the status given the statements in the last creditor meeting that i viewed so i emailed Vans and received a response this afternoon.

I placed my engine order and paid the 25% on Oct 3, 2023.

the response to my email this afternoon asking about timing of contract communication from them and received:

"You should be getting the notice in the next few days and theres be a couple of weeks to respond"

Thought I'd share and help fill the void that we're all experiencing.

Thank you!!

 

[JeremyL]

I was curious about the status given the statements in the last creditor meeting that i viewed so i emailed Vans and received a response this afternoon.

I placed my engine order and paid the 25% on Oct 3, 2023.

the response to my email this afternoon asking about timing of contract communication from them and received:

"You should be getting the notice in the next few days and theres be a couple of weeks to respond"

Thought I'd share and help fill the void that we're all experiencing.

A few days!? I was under the impression we were to know today COB.

 

[-135Driver]

Lycoming engine and Hartzell propeller order forms and pricing seems to be live on Vans website again.

 

[Brantel]

Update posted. 12% increase on Lycoming.

Update for Customers with Open Engine/Powerplant, Propeller and Avionics Kit Orders - Van's Aircraft Total Performance RV Kit Planes

When Van’s filed for Chapter 11 protection in early December, many of our customers had open orders and deposits on various Van’s airframe kits and third-party items including engines, propellers, avionics kits, and powerplant kits. Several weeks ago, Van’s sent notice to customers with deposits...

www.vansaircraft.com

 

[riobison]

I wouldn't be surprised if everyone else follows suit. Seems to be the flavor these days.

Tim

 

[JeremyL]

Where are the 2024 prices? Anyone know?

 

[JeremyL]

Where are the 2024 prices? Anyone know?

Got an answer to my question….. the current prices on the order form are the current 2024 prices (subject to change,as always)

 

[AK4x4]

A 2001 Cessna 172S loaded cost $148K with prompt delivery, A 2024 Cessna 172S loaded costs $520K with an estimated 4+ year wait for delivery. Lycoming is building engines only once ordered and payment received. The entire GA market is struggling with very low production and long waits for all sectors. The economies of scale that bring lower prices with increasing volume of production also bring about higher prices as volume decreases. There is a tipping point at which production volume becomes so low it becomes impossible to continue production. It appears to me that what is going on at Vans is symptomatic of the entire US GA industry, which seems to be slowly dying. This is sad but not really a surprise as it has slowly collapsed in one country after another around the globe. If you look at the rest of the world private aviation is mostly limited to the wealthy.

 

[afii58]

I, like you, have been watching but have not seen one. IF someone has, they need to post a link so everyone knows.

You can call Teresa Ballard at superior...will give you 3 options, of which they will pay for shipping and give you 2k....that's what I am doing, just a useless paperweight hanging around hangar

 

[afii58]

Not that I'm aware of. I continue to fly my no problem. I've been out sailing and cruising anyway, and starting a new business, so no time to do anything about that very low on my priority list.

Call Teresa Ballard at superior...will give your options