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Engine Options

T

TThurston

Well Known Member
Reading the "You Know You're Committed" thread made me wonder. Paul reports that he's ordered a Mattituck TMXIO-320. How is this engine different from the IO-320 from Van's? I went to the Mattituck website and read a bunch of stuff, but I can't say that it really meant all that much to me.

I don't really understand the issues. I believe "320" tells us something about the engine size, and "IO" means fuel injection. But I know that there are lots of different IO-320's. How are they different? If Paul paid $25,000 for his engine, and Van's website lists a EA XIO-320-D1A for $23,600, what exactly is Paul getting for his extra cash?

Is there any good source that lists the various options for an engine and discusses why those options are worth considering?

Another way of asking the question - after you'd decided on a O-320, IO-320, O-360, or IO-360, etc, how did you decide who to get you engine from, and what options to include?
 
Info

Read up on here and you will learn lots. I had no clue a while back on vertical or horizontal induction, fi, or roller tappets options etc. All greek to me. I took my time over a few years of the build and learned a lot, and saw a lot and got lots of opinions.

To way oversimplify it...lycoming makes a great engine. Sadly they paint it really blah ugly gray. Mattituck and Aerosport and others claim to take some extra time, mix and match parts, dynamically balance, flow match etc and give you more options. If you wish to have lightspeed electronic ignition on one side etc its much easier from these type of builders. Further, they paint it up REALLY pretty and that js very cool.

When you spend $20K plus on a silly little engine, things like fancy paint and a few nicer options really "customizes it". At least I think so and it made me feel mildly better about the obscene cost. The cost of these engines makes NO sense at all. I have never really got over that..its just silly for what you get.

Dont rush into anything. If you get a chance, visit lots of builders and see what they bought and talk to them about it. I got a great deal from Mattituck when they had a promo, I asked Mahlon (their main dude) a lot of stupid questions and he was very good and patient. Their deal when I bought was the whole red gold package (voodoo or real benefits I dont know) and a great warranty of three years from first start. I was happy. A boring gray lyco is bullet proof, but wasnt sexy enough for me. Your mission might vary. Purchase accordingly...just take your time. Its like the harley buyers...they spend all that money and then throw away the seat, exhaust and lots of trim and put on "better". Is it better..no idea but looks cooler. :D

Remember when the average desktop was a MAC or an IBM. Then came the clones.... Now you cant find IBM around as much. The Dells, HPs etc have taken over. Most will likely work just fine. Its the heart of your beast, and your life will rely on it. Dont go cheap, enjoy the hunt and purchase.

Have fun learning, this is a great place for that.
 
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Don't get hung up on the $25K number - I rounded up as poetic license. But the differences from the stock Lyco? Well, let's start with two P-mags - that added more than a grand right there, and pretty much makes up the difference in price. But that's not why I went with Mattituck (and the reason many go with the other fine custom builders,like Aerosport or Barrett). Basically,the engine gets a lot of extra attention - balancing, flow-matching - stuff like that. Like rick said, you can search here, or just go to Mattituck's web site and check out their "Red-Gold" package to see what they do special. Does it make a difference? My Mattituck TMX-360 on the Valkyrie is probably the smoothest engine I have ever flown behind, bar none. It was from the start, and is at more than 1200 hours. Smooth is good for the engine, prop, and airframe.

It all comes down to attention to detail. Little things like mods that prevent well-known leak causes. Lyc builds them "stock", and the custom guys add little tweaks.


Like Rick says, do a lot of research - there is a lot to learn!

Paul
 
I would only add also to keep the reputation of the company in mind as well. They major ones are pretty reputable and have stood behind their product but some better then others I guess.
 
TThurston said:
But I know that there are lots of different IO-320's. How are they different? If Paul paid $25,000 for his engine, and Van's website lists a EA XIO-320-D1A for $23,600, what exactly is Paul getting for his extra cash?
Click to expand...

Since I ordered an IO-540, I can't talk specifically about the IO-320, but things are similiar. The kit builders (Mattituck, Aeropsort, Barrett, Lycoming Thunderbolt, etc) all do a fantastic job of building an engine. (I'm sure other kit builders do just as well).

Paul and others have talked about some of the differences. I think there is no question that your engine will get more TLC. That's a good thing! Also, take a look at warranties. They are different than the standard Lycoming warranty. Most kit builders offer better warranties.

I found in the case of the IO-540, that extra TLC cost about $4k. The decision you'll have to make is the extras worth the additional fees.

At the major airshows, Van's usually runs a special deal with Lycoming. Van's always has the bundle special for an additional $1k off if you buy a prop at the same time. Many of the others will offer free shipping at the major air shows.

This is the deal I went with. I was very budget constrained and didn't want to borrow money. Savings $4k was a good start to pay for the pending avionics purchase.

The bottom line is that it will really depend on your requirements and budget. The good news is that there really isn't a bad option in purchasing a new engine.

You also have plenty of time to learn what options may be best for you. Mattituck has a one day free class. All the vendors have presentations at OSH. Call the vendors and talk with them about what they would recommend for your aircraft. Alan and Rhonda at Barrett, Bart and Sue at Aerosport, and Mahon at Mattituck have always been willing to talk to folks and answer questions. You'll find them all friendly and willing to help you.
 
I had placed an ad on this website that expired a couple of weeks ago. It advertised a TMXIO-320 Roller Tappet constant speed engine with standard accessories for 22,250.00. All the options are available for the prices listed on our price list or website. I was and am trying to move a couple of engines at a special discounted price. That "deal" is still available until the parts I want to move are gone. Paul got one of those ?deal? engines with some other options.

The differences between what we do and what comes standard from Vans and the factory:
We provide a three year full warranty from first start up compared to 1 year full 2ed year prorated from 1 year of purchase or first start up whichever is earlier. That means that if you bought an engine now and didn?t start it up for two years, we would warranty the engine in full for three more years and the Vans/Factory engine would be into prorated warranty for only 1 year.
We provide several internal modifications to stop chronic problems such as pressure relief channels over the cam bearing bores and o-ringed thru studs to stop common late in life oil leaks. We install an additional oil gallery for the front thrust surface to provide additional lubrication to that area to prevent galling that occasionally happens. We also machine every crankcase for a Lightspeed crank sensor whether you order that system or not, so that you could easily install it at a later date. Vans offers none of the above. We install an angled oil filter adapter on every engine that will accommodate it in the aircraft as compared to the Lycoming adapter supplied by Vans. All TMX engine?s have silicon rocker cover gaskets and Iridium fine wire spark plugs as compared to massive electrode plugs and paper or cork gaskets form Vans. All TMX engine's reciprocating components are dynamically balanced, ports are flow matched and cylinder combustion chambers are matched. The Factory/ Vans engine are bay balanced to pretty liberal tolerance specs and you get what you get, from stock parts, on the other issues of port matching and combustion chamber matching. We allow complete customization of accessories or appearance. Not easily available from Vans. I believe our standard appearance packages..three to choose... improves the visual appearance of the engine dramatically over the Lycoming Grey available form the Factory. The list goes on, but that is most of the difference.

In addition, I believe our support level is going to be far superior to anything you might get elsewhere. We also actively support the community in various ways, such as active participation on this forum and others, free engine workshops and free engine technical advice to any one that asks for it.

Hope this helps.

If you would like to discuss the TMX engine in more detail, feel free to give me or our Sales Manger Mike Yousik a call 1-800-624-66580 ext.305.

Good Luck and Merry Christmas,
Mahlon

"The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at your own risk."
 
I'm in the same boat

I don't know any more that you do about the engines. It is all quite confusing as well. Sometime, honestly, VAF isn't any help. (sorry VAF) With so many opinions it is sometimes hard to come up with a real answer I am comfortable with. All of the experienced guys who've posted make great points. The more that I research it seems the less I know, but the closer I get to knowing what I don't know.

What I am doing is when I come up with a question about engines, avionics etc... I write it down. I have a nice neat spreadsheet that I use as my scribble pad. My intent is to go to Oshkosh next year and talk to as many people as I can, vendors and peers, and work much of the mysticism out. Right now if I have a question that is really really burning a hole in my soul, I pick up the phone. I've already called Van's a couple times. (I'm pre empanage) I'm not sure what stage you are in on your build, but I take a very Scarlett O'Hara attitude toward issues that aren't effecting me today:
"I can't think about that right now. If I do, I'll go crazy. I'll think about that tomorrow."
 
Expensive $$ engine costs

asav8tor said:
Actual engine cost.... about 5K.
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I agree.
But some of the cost is also due to the limited production of these items and the FAA/PMA approval processes. All the hardware has to go through this on a certified aircraft.

All the lycs from the 0320,0360,IO360(angle valve) and IO540 are the same.
All are opposed 4 or 6 cylinder piston driven engines with the cam on the top. Most All can be injected or carbed. It is the options (such as ignition) or options of finding one (used or a new) that can be confusing..

Don't take the "Scarlett" approach here, start thinking now about the fun you will have with a 210 HP(IO320 angle valve) RV8 with a CS prop!! or better yet could be paul's RV3... That will be close to an ultimate sport machine with the power to Wt ratio!
As a formation friend once said: "even an ugly, rough built, heavy stick - RV will be way more fun than any 172!"

You think Lycoming engines are a high learning curve??... lets talk about avionics and glass panels!! :D
my .02$
 
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that if you take a standard Lycoming and add an EI, they won't honor the warranty. In other words, if you want to have one or two Lightspeed systems and a warranty, you can't go with a standard Lycoming.

-Rob
 
If an engine is equiped for constant speed but you prefer a fixed pitch, is it as simple as installing a "blocker plate"? (don't know the appropriate term) Are there any negatives to having a fixed pitch on a CS capable engine?

Thanks
Mark
 
AZtailwind said:
I agree.
But some of the cost is also due to the limited production of these items and the FAA/PMA approval processes. All the hardware has to go through this on a certified aircraft.

All the lycs from the 0320,0360,IO360(angle valve) and IO540 are the same.
All are opposed 4 or 6 cylinder piston driven engines with the cam on the top. Most All can be injected or carbed. It is the options (such as ignition) or options of finding one (used or a new) that can be confusing..

Don't take the "Scarlett" approach here, start thinking now about the fun you will have with a 210 HP(IO320 angle valve) RV8 with a CS prop!! or better yet could be paul's RV3... That will be close to an ultimate sport machine with the power to Wt ratio!
As a formation friend once said: "even an ugly, rough built, heavy stick - RV will be way more fun than any 172!"

You think Lycoming engines are a high learning curve??... lets talk about avionics and glass panels!! :D
my .02$
Click to expand...

I didnt know you could get a io320 with more than 160hp. Can you explain how that is done and what kind of horsepower options would be available with that engine?
 
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