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Engine choices/reviews, incoming!

S

Sig600

Well Known Member
I've looked at more engine and prop combos than I can count, with no real data on any of it. So I'm turning to the experience of others on here.... imitation is the sincerest form of flattery right?

Primary mission will be day trips of a < 300NM, occasional long coast to coast, maybe a loop or roll here and there. Live at 4K feet, summers the DA can touch 8K.

Not looking to break the bank, and I don't need to set any world speed records. I'd like to be able to cruise in the 25mpg range when LOP but still climb out on a warm day at 6500' DA and MGTOW.

Fire away with any and all powerplant and prop combos!
 
No matter what your choice, you should be able to get 25 MPG.

25 miles X 5 gallons = 125 smph. no wind
25 X 6 = 150
25 X 7 = 175 ?
25 X 8 = 200 I don't think so.

My 6A 320 metal fixed pitch will cruse at 140 true smph on 4.7 to 5 gph. That's 28 mpg.
You will just need to choose your speed.

The better the aircraft is built, the more mpg you will get.

I know of an RV4 that was so well built that it would get 30 mpg at 190 smph.
 
gasman said:
No matter what your choice, you should be able to get 25 MPG.

25 miles X 5 gallons = 125 smph. no wind
25 X 6 = 150
25 X 7 = 175 ?
25 X 8 = 200 I don't think so.

My 6A 320 metal fixed pitch will cruse at 140 true smph on 4.7 to 5 gph. That's 28 mpg.
You will just need to choose your speed.

The better the aircraft is built, the more mpg you will get.

I know of an RV4 that was so well built that it would get 30 mpg at 190 smph.
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Well with that said, I guess I'm looking for the best bang/buck combo that will get me out of high DA airports when needed (not routine). There are so many choices, I don't really need to or want to be the first one with some combo. I'd rather just copy someone with a proven setup.
 
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Well, I have posted in other threads about my ECI IO-340. It is relatively the same weight as an IO-320 and puts out a rated 185 HP. I have around 85 hours on it now after flying back from Sun n Fun and really love this engine.

I regularly see 150-155 smph at 65% power, LOP and burning about 6.8 gph. Flying back from SNF I was doing 160-165 smph at 75% power, LOP and burning 7.3 gph at 7000 ft. I can burn more and go faster if I need to. I have discovered that running 50 degrees ROP at 75% power can get me about 170-180 smph but burns 10.5 gph in doing it. I am not sure I can justify the extra fuel burn unless I really had to get somewhere fast (which I did have to do a week ago if I was to beat out the storms that, at the time, were keeping me from getting to the tornado at SNF). THANK GOD I MADE IT TO THE SHOW BEFORE THE TORNADO DID!! :rolleyes:
 
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Sig600 said:
I guess I'm looking for the best bang/buck combo that will get me out of high DA airports when needed (not routine). There are so many choices, I don't really need to or want to be the first one with some combo. I'd rather just copy someone with a proven setup.
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I think you should talk to Mel.............
 
Minimum O-360.

Fixed pitch or Constant speed (CS) is subjective but I would try for CS if possible.

Not hard at all
 
Your requirements say it all....

So, for your altitude and potential density altitude operations, take-off performance will be greatly improved with a C/S prop.
For good climb on high-hot days, you want horsepower. No point leaving any horses in the barn. Especially if you are in the mountains.

If you want good LOP fuel economy, you are talking fuel-injected for sure.

So, I think it comes down to a parallel-valve IO-360 or a angle-valve IO-360 with a C/S prop.

The parallel-valve can be souped up to the same Hp, while being roughly 30 lb lighter, but with higher compression ratio that complicates the future alternative fuels picture. If you want to be sure to be able to keep the high performance in a future that may involve 95UL fuel, then you want to get the power with lower compression, better breathing, which is what the angle-valve engines do. And the added weight translates into a bit more robustness/durability in the engine (although plenty of folks get fine durability out of 9.5 CR parallel-valve engines too). Also, you can offset about half the weight-addition by buying a lighter prop, like the WW200RV. Yes, its more expensive than the Hartzell B/A, but it is smooth and quiet and lighter.

Another trade-off you should think about is useful baggage load for your occasional long trips. Others may be able to give you some quantitative data here, but it seems to me the RV-7 tends to come out on the tail-heavy side of things sometimes if the engine-prop combo is really light. So although you have saved weight, you may not be able to put it in the baggage area. If you have the heavier engine/prop, your useful load will be less, but you may be able to put more weight behind the seats.

As far as budget, the angle-valve engines do seem to command a higher price. So on balance, you may decide that a 200 hp, CR=9.5 parallel-valve IO-360 is the best fit.

Just as a bench-mark, I have a IO-360-A1A (angle-valve 200hp) with a Whirl Wind 200RV prop on my RV-8. My standard cruise set up is 2400 rpm, wide-open-minus a pinch throttle, and 8.0-8.3 gph mixture. This gives me 170 kt TAS - so I'm in the 23-24 mpg range. You can always lean a bit more, slow down a little, and as RVbySDI said, your economy goes up - so you dial in the economy vs. speed trade-off you want.

So there is one way to approach the decision anyway, hope it helps,
 
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Take a good look at the Catto Prop. I love mine, climbs well, cruies well, very smooth and all for a little over 2000 dollars. :) He has a good reputation in the RV world as well.

I will add that I too would like to have a constant speed prop particularlly the RV-200, but with my modest income and becoming a Dave Ramsey fan, it didn't fit my budget. I think the IO-360 or O-360 is the engine of choice for the RV-7 though.
 
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Are there any ground adjustable prop options for the RV? I hardly ever see them mentioned. It seems like it might be a good trade off in this instance if it saves weight and allows you the option of a climb prop for those few days per year where density altitude is a big issue.
 
Our 7 has a parallel valve IO-360 with an MT 3 blade cs prop.

It is super smooth and super sexy. It hauls *** on take off and is very comfortable in the cruise, however, it is the most expensive and not the fastest.

The 8 will also have a parallel valve engine, prop to be decided, though if Whirlwind can get a UK based overhaul agent, I think I know where my buck will go....... :rolleyes:
 
Phlyan Pan said:
Are there any ground adjustable prop options for the RV? I hardly ever see them mentioned. It seems like it might be a good trade off in this instance if it saves weight and allows you the option of a climb prop for those few days per year where density altitude is a big issue.
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I don't know why but ground adjustable props scare me. I have a Catto three blade, O-360 RV-6A and regularly fly with a density altitude approaching 10,000'.

I have taken off from Leadville with the DA around 12,500'.

Horsepower...horsepower...horsepower. Just accept that I am right on this point.

Then your next best option is a constant speed prop.
 
Phlyan Pan said:
Are there any ground adjustable prop options for the RV? I hardly ever see them mentioned. It seems like it might be a good trade off in this instance if it saves weight and allows you the option of a climb prop for those few days per year where density altitude is a big issue.
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Having operated out of some of the highest airports in the US in the middle of summer, it is hard for me to imagine a DA situation where any RV except maybe the RV-12 would have any issue at a public airport. That includes O-320s and wood fixed pitch props. They all have a great power to weight ratio.
 
n5lp said:
Having operated out of some of the highest airports in the US in the middle of summer, it is hard for me to imagine a DA situation where any RV except maybe the RV-12 would have any issue at a public airport. That includes O-320s and wood fixed pitch props. They all have a great power to weight ratio.
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Just figure that........while an F/P will do okay, the C/S will do much better!

L.Adamson --- RV6A/ Harzell CS
 
Two engines

First RV7- ECI IO360 Bendix FI, stock compression, Dyno'd at 194HP Gone through by Barrett Precision. Slick Mags
Great fuel economy. Lots of power for high DA flight.

New 7 not flying. Lycoming IO390 By Barrett Precision. Stock compression. Slick mags with G3i ignition system. Dyno'd at 212HP in rich condition. Estimated to get 218 hp after break in.

I can't say enough about the Whirlwind 200RV prop. This is a smooth prop designed for the RV airframe. Very fast and efficient.
 
To the first Steve, can you run mogas through that 340?

To the second Steve, you make some great points and I had thought about the MOGAS issue and would like to keep the compression down to allow for that.

An angle valve IO-360 with a WW200RV is probably going to be higher than where I'd like to be money wise, but who knows, you can't argue with performenace.

As far as the Catto props, I've looked at their website and the construction... are they built for IFR flight? i.e. will it delaminate in the rain?

Larry you make a great point, a FP 160HP RV-7 is the same power/prop combo as a C-172, with half the weight and 1/3 the drag....

Thanks for all the info guys... keep it coming. Great discussion points.
 
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Sig600 said:
To the first Steve, can you run mogas through that 340?
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It is a 9.0:1 compression so ECI requires 100LL. In my opinion, I think it will run on mogas fine at lower power settings but detonation is a possibility at high power settings. I only run 100LL as per the ECI manual.
 
As far as the Catto props, I've looked at their website and the construction... are they built for IFR flight? i.e. will it delaminate in the rain?



[/QUOTE]

I think you may have a good point here. His newer props have leading edge protection, and it can also be added to the older props. I don't have any experience flying mine IFR or in rain, but maybe someone else on here can chime in. You might give Craig Catto a call 209-754-3553 as well he is very knowledgable and just over the hill from us.
 
Oh hey, you're like 20 minutes away!!!

You keep yours at RTS? Summers here is exactly what I'm trying to plan for. How does yours handle a hot day at max gross?
 
I am at RTS right next to Greg. Just recently watched him go from a nose wheel to a tail dragger:)

The verdict may still be out on mine as I had my first flight last September. I did however do my climb rate testing from 8000 DA through 9000 DA. I don't have my test cards in front of me, but memory tells me I saw 1100 ft per minute up too 1500 ft per minute just depending on the speed I was climbing at. I climbed at speeds ranging from 80 mph to 140 mph WOT. That is way better than the Cherokee 180 or Cessna 152 I was flying before.
 
sbarger24 said:
I am at RTS right next to Greg. Just recently watched him go from a nose wheel to a tail dragger:)

The verdict may still be out on mine as I had my first flight last September. I did however do my climb rate testing from 8000 DA through 9000 DA. I don't have my test cards in front of me, but memory tells me I saw 1100 ft per minute up too 1500 ft per minute just depending on the speed I was climbing at. I climbed at speeds ranging from 80 mph to 140 mph WOT. That is way better than the Cherokee 180 or Cessna 152 I was flying before.
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Is yours pitched for cruise or climb? Do you happen to remember how much runway you used on those hot/high days? That's really my only considerations for going CS. If I know I can get in the air in 1500' at gross on the hot summer days with a cruise pitch prop I'll gladly go FP.

I really like the catto three blades, the durability in the weather is my only real hesitation.

I've been trying to get over there to check out Gregs work and introduce myself, however I was at work for 17 hours yesterday and it doesn't look to be slowing down any time soon. You guys going to be out there tomorrow?
 
Thinking ahead,

...we sell our birds at some point in time even if to jump to another RV. I do believe the parallel valve IO-360/CSP is the combo most likely to sell quickly on the market.

My setup is like that and above 8000', WOT, LOP I can easily get 24mpg @180mph true. I have a GRT EFIS so easy to go lean of peak.
 
Sig600 said:
Is yours pitched for cruise or climb? Do you happen to remember how much runway you used on those hot/high days? That's really my only considerations for going CS. If I know I can get in the air in 1500' at gross on the hot summer days with a cruise pitch prop I'll gladly go FP.

I really like the catto three blades, the durability in the weather is my only real hesitation.

I've been trying to get over there to check out Gregs work and introduce myself, however I was at work for 17 hours yesterday and it doesn't look to be slowing down any time soon. You guys going to be out there tomorrow?
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Unfortunately I have to work most of the day tomorrow, but will be out there this weekend. I should give you ride in my plane, sounds like you have way more hours and experience than I do, so I'm sure I would learn something as well.

1500 ft sure doesn't seem like an issue even at full gross on a hot day. If a person had poor technique landing I think it could be. This is really something I need to explore better, kind of spoiled with 8000 ft runways.

My pitch is setup for cruise
 
C/S props for landings too

Oh, yeah, short landings....

having a C/S prop is like having spoilers. You can have very steep approach for good vis of austere fields, and really stop in a hurry. Much less idle thrust.

I think you can't go wrong with a paralle-valve FI engine and a C/S.
 
sbarger24 said:
Unfortunately I have to work most of the day tomorrow, but will be out there this weekend. I should give you ride in my plane, sounds like you have way more hours and experience than I do, so I'm sure I would learn something as well.

1500 ft sure doesn't seem like an issue even at full gross on a hot day. If a person had poor technique landing I think it could be. This is really something I need to explore better, kind of spoiled with 8000 ft runways.

My pitch is setup for cruise
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I'd return the favor, but everything I fly has one seat.

If you guys are out there this weekend, I keep telling Greg I want to check out the progress on his conversion.
 
Sig600 said:
I'd return the favor, but everything I fly has one seat.

If you guys are out there this weekend, I keep telling Greg I want to check out the progress on his conversion.
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If you get time to come out just let Greg or I know my number is 901 581 2694. No need to return the flying favor however if we are talking about some kind of military fighter and you ever get a chance to take a normal person you let me know I will tell work I have an emergency and probably beat you out there.

Back to the topic of the thread I just don't believe you would be disappointed with a good fixed pitch prop on an RV and in my opinion a constant speed would be nicer but I couldn't justify the advantages to the cost at least not at this point of time. Down the road a few years we will see:)
 
sbarger24 said:
Back to the topic of the thread I just don't believe you would be disappointed with a good fixed pitch prop on an RV and in my opinion a constant speed would be nicer but I couldn't justify the advantages to the cost at least not at this point of time. Down the road a few years we will see:)
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In this part of the country....

Mountainous, and not that far from Reno...............I'd say that C/S props are about 4 to 1 in popularity. There IS a reason, and everyone around here..... has flown both..............knows! :)

Some of us, just budget for a C/S as one of the first priorities.......as I simply would not care for an RV without one :D

L.Adamson --- RV6A, Hartzell C/S, 4607-12000' quickly
 
I went with Van?s offering of combined Engine & Prop for all the reasons Van points out in their flyer.

http://vansaircraft.com/images/open/2011_SnF_Flyer.pdf

We like to give our business to Van?s Aircraft whenever we can, keeping that company healthy and prospering is good for us all. And I would say buy sooner than later, looking like prices on engines and props are only going to go up. Not quite like the situation with Glass Instrumentation where price and capability is improving.

Good luck there,
Paul
 
Paul,
Thanks for the heads up on the flyer on the engine deal. I fully agree that supporting Van's is never a bad deal. The free long term storage, is it safe to assume that as long as you leave it sealed up on delivery, it could be safely stored for a year or two without risk?
 
Sig,

I agree with Steve Smith's (and others') assessment...up here, more power is never a bad thing! I like the engine/prop combo he's recommending, and I also fly form with a gent that has an 8 with a 360 and a WW prop...and he's fast and loves his performance.

That being said, I've also flown Steve Barger's airplane and did the aerobatic testing in it, and it performs very admirably (and aerobatic testing was done at 9-10K MSL up here in the winter). I haven't flown it at gross on a hot day yet, but I've done so in a 360/FP 9A, which did fine.

Then again, "fine" is in the eye of the beholder (not a negative comment, but I know what you fly...oh, and Steve, if Sig ever offers you a ride...take it!) :D

I'm in the IO-360+ with CS prop camp, but don't want to try to spend your money...so its probably worth making a goods/others (to you) chart up on a white board, and seeing where it all falls out.

Things like (and this is pure opinion here)
LOP ops = IO is a +
Formation = CS is a +
Short fields = CS is a +
High DA = more power (definitely), hi comp (maybe) is a +
Mogas = hi comp is a -

Just examples, and there are so many more, including budget. And I'd recommend looking not only at what you want to do in the RV now, but also what mission creep may happen as you get into it, if ya know what I mean (you are a fighter pilot after all! ;))

There are enough RVs out at Stead to get a good taste of almost any combo, so there's some good research to be done there. I'll be out early in the am tomorrow (Sun) and back in the afternoon, so if you and Steve hook up out there, let me know. Off next week, so Greg and I will be out there some during the week too.

See ya out there!

Cheers,
Bob
 
Sig600 said:
The free long term storage, is it safe to assume that as long as you leave it sealed up on delivery, it could be safely stored for a year or two without risk?
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I think it is the same preservative that they put in all their shipments (not a true pickling, does not have desiccant plugs, etc). A call to Lycoming [570-327-7181 [email protected]] or Van's Tech Support can tell you for sure. Warranty starts 2 years after shipping if not in the air by then so don't let it sit too long.

Sounds like you are on the right track, doing your research. Good luck with your project.

Paul
 
After much deliberation, I think it's going to be a catto three blade. The savings from the WW 200RV will pay for a GTN 650! :D

Now, engine. Thanks for all the inputs!
 
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