What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Elevator Riveting... Grrrrrrrrrrrrr!

RV7Factory

RV7Factory

Chief Obfuscation Officer
It's official... I am frustrated! :mad:

I have been trying to rivet the first elevator skeleton for two days now and things just seem to be going from bad to worse. For the life of me, I can't figure out how to rivet the tip rib assembly (E-703 & E-704) to the elevator spar (E-702). The rivets that go through the spar web and the aft flange of the counterbalance rib are proving to be a big PITA! As it stands, I have bent over four rivets (two each hole) and now after drilling them out the holes have become enlarged. I just can't seem to be able to get the rivet gun and/or bucking bar in there.

I don't like the looks of what's left, but before I run over the parts with my car and order new ones, I figured it was worth one last attempt (just kidding about the car).

I am thinking of fabricating little doubler plates to somewhat address the enlarged holes (not sure if that is a good idea), or I thought of enlarging the holes further and using two large BSPQ-5-4 pop rivets. Any thoughts, comments or suggestions?

Thanks!
 
Last edited:
Squeeze 'em

Use a squeezer instead of shooting and bucking. That's my 2 cents!

With enlarged holes it will only get more difficult. You can try to "swell" the rivets by pre-squeezing them a little to fill the holes a little tighter before setting 'em.

If the holes are really enlarged then you can go up to a 5/32" diameter rivet. Take care in preserving the alignment of the rib to the spar, though. Enlarged holes can lead to misalignment.

)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
 
Squeeze

I agree with Dan - squeeze em. Buy whatever yokes you need. I consider shooting & bucking the method of last resort, and always use two people, one for the gun and one for the bucking bar. There are undoubtedly those who can successfully drive those 1/8th rivets with the gun in one hand and the bucking bar in the other, but I didn't feel like building enough elevators to perfect the technique.

William
RV-8QB
 
What Dan said

Brad,

The RV-9 is slightly different but if you check out the aileron page of my web site (scroll to the bottom) you will see how I set those rivets. Hope this helps. Heck, I hope this is the same type of problem you have run into.

BTW, don't use the car. I've found a .45 works better and looks way cooler.
 
Frustration ususally costs (time & dollars)! Walk away for a day or two and calm down, give your tech counsellor a call for some advice.

If you still want to use a gun and bar then I have found that clamping the skeleton to the bench is important for good rivets. Get the heaviest bar that will fit in, make sure everything is square, hang on tight and use short bursts. As noted above slight pre-squeezing of rivets can help, as can turning the gun air pressure to 60 or 70 psi. If you do screw it up, order new ribs, cut the flange off the spar and replace with some angle, drill in assembly with the skin clecod on for alignment.

Hope this helps, Pete
 
If them rivets are universal head it is ok to use screws and nuts. replace #4 rivets with #8 an screws. get a small supply there are a few more places like that.
Good luck
Frank Mn
slider done
 
Thanks everyone...

I had originally tried to squeeze these, but despite my repeated attempts, I couldn't seem to get the squeezer lined up properly with the rivet. I'll try again tonight, as maybe there is some combination of yoke and angle I didn't try. I looked this morning, and I do think I am going to have to go up to 5/32" rivets. The holes is egg shaped and the 1/8" rivets is really swimming around... the only problem is, I might now have edge distance issues with the holes in the rear flange of the counterbalance rib... D'oh! Oh well, this isn't the first time, and probably won't be the last.
 
Update: I took another stab at trying to squeeze these, and I have three words... Not gonna happen!

No matter which angle I approach this from or which yoke I use, I can't get the squeezer in close enough. I have tried flexing parts out of the way, but that only created alignment issues. Now, I only have a pneumatic squeezer, so maybe I would have better luck with the hand-op squeezer. Who knows, I'm stuck. I think I am going to do as penguin said and trim all the flanges off the ribs and make myself a thicker-longer-angle-piece-bracket-thingy.
 
For the problem I bought a crowbar to use and see if I could get it in there. That turned out to be an ok solution. Another one I was more happy about was grinding a bucking bar to fit into the area. That worked a lot better since it has more mass. The crowbar idea was originally from Mike Schipper's homepage.

Danny
 
Brad--

Not sure if you've done this already, but take a couple digital pics and send them to Van's. They've pretty much seen everything I'm sure and might be able to give you suggestions. In any case, your mind will be at ease knowing that whatever you end up doing it is a SAFE resolution to the problem. Sometimes it's hard when you just want to continue with the building process, but I try to never leave any question in my mind that the solution I've chosen is a structurally sound solution that won't cause me angst in a couple years while at 10K feet. Van's is the best way to acquire this peace of mind.

If it makes you feel any better (probably not), while my elevators are pretty good, I know that I could do them better the next time too: could make them look a little nicer, could use proseal on the stiffeners to eliminate some of the skin cracks that have developed on other's over time, etc. The elevators were by far the most difficult part of my empennage. Who knows, I may end up rebuilding them as other builders have done. Considering the cost of your entire project, it wouldn't cost that much to do so.

I also keep a list of all the "mistakes" I've made, including the resolution. That way, when I get to the point of flying, I will be confident that I've addressed (and not forgotten) every potential issue.

Not sure that all of this is germane to your current issue, but I remember feeling that same angst once or twice early on. You'll be happy to know that (with the exception of proseal in the fuel tanks) there's nothing on the wings that is, in my mind, more difficult than parts of the empennage.

While you're waiting to get things figured out, start building your other elevator or trim tab.

Good luck.
 
Last edited:
Elevator rivets

I don't remember exactly what I used where, but I used my C-Frame for a lot of riveting on the empennage frame - more than I ever thought I would. I used the extension to raise the set as high as possible and the length of the riveting tool (that slides into the gun) allows less bending of parts out of the way. The frame assures perfect alignment for driving the rivets.

Dennis Glaeser
7A Wings
 
Sorry to bump the old thread but....

I'm in the same place, right now, riveting the E-703 to E-702. I've mooshed the rivets on two attempts, egged the holes, and admitted failure by putting pop rivets in there. the pop rivets don't satisfy me, the hold is pretty loose, so they're coming out. I might have to go to the next size rivet, but I don't have a double-offset AN-5 set and I don't really want to buy one just for this op and the next elevator.

No yoke on the C-frame will work, at least the way I'm doing it. I cannot fit the squeezer in there in such a way that the sets will line up.

One hand on the gun and another on a bar (used 2 different sizes) doesn't fly.

Pop rivets (1/8 size, might have to go for the BSPQ's) aren't working because the pop rivet gun is leaving about 1/8 inch of shaft sticking out of the head, plus they're not satisfactory for the enlarged holes.

I don't want to buy an alligator-type squeezer (even though it might work) just for this op either.

There is no way this is possible (that I can see) using the c-frame technique.

I havent' explored the nut/bolt option yet, but I fear it may be going that way.

I've hit the proverbial wall on this one. Any advice would be appreciated.
 
Never mind, found a solution.

After seeing RV7factory.com's solution, I think I'm going to do it that way. Couple of big bolts, then do the left elevator differently.

But now I get to fab and prime a doubler, and I'm not sure if I've got the scrap.. Wait a sec, yes I do, from those spare spars I ordered last time I messed up the HS.

They're right, all of them. Build a little each day rather than a lot all at once, and keep doing it, no matter what.
 
Dont rivet E-703 to E-704 first

I riveted 704 to 702 first, then riveted 703 to 704 and 702 with a longeron yoke on a pneumatic squeezer.
 
I used the squeezer...

Two words... Pnuematic Squeezer.

I'll look at my pictures tonight and see if I have something helpful to post. But I had no problems with this area. In fact, I think I only bucked about 4 or 5 rivets on the entire elevator build. I love that squeezer.

As I recall, I riveted these two rivets first, before attaching the longer end rib to the shorter one. Van's instructions say to rivet those two ribs together first, but I didn't do that. This gives you more space to work around the front of the shorter rib. With that and a longeron yoke, its a very simple task.
 
Last edited:
Can't use a squeezer----unless

You most likely can't use any squeezer here (except gator type) unless you wait to rivet the outboard counterweight rib on after you have riveted the inboard rib to the spar first. This allows you to bend the rib flange enough to get the squeezer in there. Without this, the angle is impossible for most any combo of squeezer and yoke.

Once you have the inboard one riveted to the spar, you can use your longeron yoke (get one now if you do not have one) to squeeze the rest effortlessly.

I did not do it this way, I bucked them but it is not easy because the assy jumps around if you do not tie it down and there is not much space in there for the bucking bar not to mention you need to use a double offset set which is hard to use when at this stage in the learning process. If I did it again, I would do it as described above.
 
At this point I'm trying to decide whether or not to just drill off the outboard rib and use the pneumatic squeezer with the longeron yoke, which I've got. Fabbing up a doubler (and waiting for AN screws/nuts to come in) seems like about the same amount of work as drilling off the 703 to 704 rivets and going with AD5 rivets in the trouble spot. I checked that out just now, it should be cake to get that together without the 704 rib in place.

Thanks for the advice!
 
I've just finished that joint, here's what I did.

1-Clamp the skeleton to the table (always clamp work to be riveted)
2-Squeeze the rivets that run parallel to 702 with a normal yoke
3-Get a partner to hold a small bucking bar on the front side of 702 and drive the rivets that run perpendicular to 702 with a gun from the rear. This does require flexing the 703,704 ribs slightly but to no detriment. Everything lines up perfectly afterwards.

Better results can be had by purchasing a longeron yoke and squeezing everything. I havent done that yet.....

Good luck.

PS ever in doubt, call the factory.
 
I feel your pain John, this was by far my greatest frustration in construction to date. Even thinking about it makes me cringe. Good luck!

kiwirv7guy said:
I riveted 704 to 702 first, then riveted 703 to 704 and 702 with a longeron yoke on a pneumatic squeezer.
Click to expand...
This is what I did on the 2nd elevator... soo much easier, and no problems at all.

Bob Collins said:
Brad. Just curious. How many bucking bars do you have?
Click to expand...
Bob, my original post was over a year ago and this problem is long gone for me now, but I have 3 bucking bars. :D
 
Solution

Brad,

I was at this stage and just went out and squeezed them. I used a Tatco
longeron yoke 2x2 and then added to a 5/16 flush end. I used a nut to take up the space for the yoke. The total length of the flush end needs to be a little less than an inch. All I had was a 1/2 inch flush so I improvised!!!!! I guess thats what you call it.
Heres some pics for you.
Bruce Pauley
Rowlett TX
Rv 7A
Kitlog

my.php
[/URL][/IMG]

my.php
[/URL][/IMG]
 
Bruce, thanks for the pics, but this was a post of mine from 2005 recently brought back to life by another poster. I solved this particular problem loooong ago, and I am dealing with a completely new set of problems now. :D :D :D
 
Resurrecting this thread again...

I just finished riveting the elevator tip ribs to the front spar, and I agree that it's a major pain. For anyone approaching this step, do yourself a favor and don't try to rivet the complete tip rib assembly to the spar with the skin already riveted on (even leaving just the outboard part of the skin off as the plans say). I have no idea why Van's says to do it this way, but my hat's off to anyone who can get good results. Mine are ugly, but appear structurally sound.
 
I do not remember having any big problems setting the rivets on my elevators, I had an experienced RV 7 builder with me at the time and that can be a great asset. If you can find someone that has more experience see if they will come over and give you a hand. I have found that most every builder is willing and thrilled about helping.
 
DaX said:
Wow, this thread being bumped up came at just the right time for me!
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, every time it comes back from the dead I get emails from people with suggestions. :p:D

Here is a pic of the problem area. No matter how I approached it, I couldn't get a squeezer on these rivets without introducing an angle to the squeezer or ribs. Obviously I didn't try hard enough. Anyway, the easy solution was not to follow the directions and to rivet the short rib to the spar first, then attach the long outboard rib to the spar and short rib.

050914_006.jpg
 
Doug and/or Mods:

How about creating model-specific "Common Building Frustrations And Their Resolutions" sub-forums in either the "Model Specific" forums or the "Building Tips/Techniques" forum? That way, when a thread like this reaches the point that there are several good suggestions and the original author has gotten their answer, it can be locked and moved into the "Frustrations and Resolutions" forum as a sort of reference library for future builder. The title could even be changed to accurately portray the nature of the problem solved, which would speed future searches.

Just one guy's lame-brain idea.
 
RV7Factory said:
Unfortunately, every time it comes back from the dead I get emails from people with suggestions. :p:D
Click to expand...

You could go back and edit your post(s) and put a big, red, bold, underlined addition saying that the problem was worked out, see page 3, etc...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top