Electric flap install

[koda2]

The instructions for the electric flaps on the 6A kit are pretty minimal. I started out looking for the length of the flap rods. In trying to figure everything out, I came to the conclusion that there is no way to adjust the flap travel. Flap position, yes, but not travel.

The actuator travels 5" before it runs out of screw threads on each end. The fitting on the end only sets the start position. (Same way with the flap rod length and bearings).

On my plane 40 degrees flap is about the limit before the upper flap skin gets "worry" close to the end of the wing skin. That requires about 3.5" of flap travel.

The reduction in travel distance accomplished by the unequal flap torque rod ends, makes it closer but I think it is still too much.

It appears the excess travel either goes on one end or the other, thereby risking stripping the actuator threads or extending the flaps beyond the limits of safety.

I may be able to make it work once its finally in there but if not, is there any other solution besides designing a limit switch?

Dave A
6A build

 

[noelf]

I did not try to noodle-out the electric flap geometry...

...I just installed it the way Van's indicated on my -6A. I mounted the electric flap parts just as the drawing called out. The electric flap actuator rod and flap control weldment was installed as per plans.

I next made sure the flaps were fully retracted (use the plywood wing alignment template) so that they were in the proper "in trail" position.

Finally, I made sure the electric flap actuator motor and rod were in the fully "flaps retracted" position. (note: when the electric motor actuator rod is fully extended, the flaps are fully "up").

Once the above conditions were met, I measured the distance between the mounting holes that receive the rod end bearings, and this gave me the distance for the length of the F-659 flap rods + rod end bearings. I do not remember what the length was, but I do remember that it was quite a bit shorter than what Van called out.

End result is that I get 40deg of down flaps, good flap leading edge tuck so it will not pop out and above the wing skin, and the flaps are in proper trail position when retracted.

 

[Brantel]

Me 2 but with a 7....It works as designed...mods are just time and money suckers..

I do understand that the 6 is a little easier to accidently get the flap on top of the wing skin. Some of these were caused by something or someone hitting the flaps when they are down. I bet some were caused by poor installation and adjustments from the start. If you do not start with the flaps up in correct trail, this could make it easier to have a pop-out at the end of the down travel.

If you press hard enough on any of the models toward the front of the airplane when the flaps are all the way down I bet you could expose the front edge of the flap skin...

One can always roll the front of the flap skin a little more to prevent it from jumping out if it comes clear of the wing skin...

In flight, pressure keeps all the slop pressed out of the system and the flaps will not extend as far as they will on the ground....

...I just installed it the way Van's indicated on my -6A. I mounted the electric flap parts just as the drawing called out. The electric flap actuator rod and flap control weldment was installed as per plans.

I next made sure the flaps were fully retracted (use the plywood wing alignment template) so that they were in the proper "in trail" position.

Finally, I made sure the electric flap actuator motor and rod were in the fully "flaps retracted" position. (note: when the electric motor actuator rod is fully extended, the flaps are fully "up").

Once the above conditions were met, I measured the distance between the mounting holes that receive the rod end bearings, and this gave me the distance for the length of the F-659 flap rods + rod end bearings. I do not remember what the length was, but I do remember that it was quite a bit shorter than what Van called out.

End result is that I get 40deg of down flaps, good flap leading edge tuck so it will not pop out and above the wing skin, and the flaps are in proper trail position when retracted.

 

[JonJay]

Not on mine....

Me 2 but with a 7....It works as designed...mods are just time and money suckers..

If you press hard enough on any of the models toward the front of the airplane when the flaps are all the way down I bet you could expose the front edge of the flap skin...

An easy inch to go. You would have to break something to make that happen. Honestly I am not sure why this is a problem on some and not even close to being one on others.

 

[koda2]

flap travel

Thanks for the responses.

The method suggested by noelf was how I planned to proceed. It seemed to be the most logical way to do it. Now having done so on the right side, the flap goes from 0 to 45 degrees extension before the motor stops and I have a hair over 5/16" of flap skin left under the wing skin. It takes another 3 or 4 degrees before it "pops out".

Just so you know, I scoured the archives several times prior to posting as there is usually a wealth of info there and there were several builders who commented on stripped gears and stuck flaps, so it happens.

The drawing that I have on the electrical flap contains 4 or 5 errors. I know this because the electric flap housing was one of the first assemblies I rebuilt. The original assembly didn't fit.

I have two sets of 6 plans, one for a quick build 6 which is very incomplete and a full set of six plans and instructions which I purchased later, and they don't always agree, even on critical areas.

I also use notes I took from a fellow builders preview 7 plans to see if there better explanations on the parts that were the same as a 6. And there is a 7 down the hangar row that I go look at whenever I can.

As far as "over-noodling" goes, I have been snake-bit so many times with this kit, I no longer take anything at face value. Most of the issues were not put on the forum but I have had to re-fabricate or re-purchase so many parts that were made exactly "per plans" or came with the kit, that I no longer trust anything in the plans until I can see how its going to work on the plane. Its slowing down my building process and the fun went away a long time ago, but if I am ever going to enjoy owning and flying a plane again, I have to finish this. Hopefully, it will be mechanically sound and safe to fly, whether it is "per plans" or not.

Dave A.

 

[Rick6a]

Dave,

I do not know if this is applicable in your situation. The leading edge of the flap skins on my 2000 vintage kit...that part of the flap some builders report popping out and damaging the wing's upper skin due to excessive travel....contains a U shaped notch cut into its upper edge. As long as that notch does not become visible when the flaps are in full down position, there is little to no chance the flap can pop out and damage the wing's upper skin. See if your kit contains that notch. If your flap skins do contain that factory cut notch, you can use it to good advantage when rigging.

 

[Sam Buchanan]

As far as "over-noodling" goes, I have been snake-bit so many times with this kit, I no longer take anything at face value. Most of the issues were not put on the forum but I have had to re-fabricate or re-purchase so many parts that were made exactly "per plans" or came with the kit, that I no longer trust anything in the plans until I can see how its going to work on the plane. Its slowing down my building process and the fun went away a long time ago, but if I am ever going to enjoy owning and flying a plane again, I have to finish this. Hopefully, it will be mechanically sound and safe to fly, whether it is "per plans" or not.

Dave A.

Yep, that is the way it is with a kit that was designed nearly 25 years ago.

Trust but verify.

The builders of the new kits usually don't have a frame of reference with which to truly appreciate the refinements in the latest CAD kits.

I hope you are able to recover the fun of custom building your own plane. The enjoyment should be enhanced by the challenge of building your plane vs merely popping together a perfectly die-punched kit.

Sounds like you have the flaps figured out. I retrofitted electric flaps to my flying RV-6 and it was a very worthwhile mod even though considerable "noodlin'" was needed.

 

[Ironflight]

As far as "over-noodling" goes, I have been snake-bit so many times with this kit, I no longer take anything at face value. Most of the issues were not put on the forum but I have had to re-fabricate or re-purchase so many parts that were made exactly "per plans" or came with the kit, that I no longer trust anything in the plans until I can see how its going to work on the plane. Its slowing down my building process and the fun went away a long time ago, but if I am ever going to enjoy owning and flying a plane again, I have to finish this. Hopefully, it will be mechanically sound and safe to fly, whether it is "per plans" or not.

Look at the bright side Dave - when you finish your -6, you can start a -3 and really appreciate how complete and correct the -6 kit and plans really were!

I called Van's Tech Support on a -3 question the other day and was actually told "I don't know why we keep selling that kit - there isn't anyone here that has even seen one built anymore!!" Definitely not for the faint of heart, or those who don't enjoy "noodlin"....

Paul

 

[Brantel]

I may be a little fuzzy on the details but I don't recall much in the form of pre fab/punch/fool proofing in the way the flap system was delivered to me on my 7. Kinda looked much like that of the 6.....

But.. I do give credit to those that built non prepunched kits... Way more work involved there for sure.

Yep, that is the way it is with a kit that was designed nearly 25 years ago.

Trust but verify.



The builders of the new kits usually don't have a frame of reference with which to truly appreciate the refinements in the latest CAD kits.

I hope you are able to recover the fun of custom building your own plane. The enjoyment should be enhanced by the challenge of building your plane vs merely popping together a perfectly die-punched kit.

Sounds like you have the flaps figured out. I retrofitted electric flaps to my flying RV-6 and it was a very worthwhile mod even though considerable "noodlin'" was needed.

 

[noelf]

Yes, on my -6A, I got a level set in expectations...

...some years ago while talking to the folks at Van's about something that, when it fit, did not agree with the plans. I was told that I should regard the drawings as a general guide of what should be built, I should never go completely by the drawings.

At first I was somewhat shocked by the comment, but I got over it and continued on. I don't think I called them as often after that.

 

[koda2]

Plans for a reason

... I was told that I should regard the drawings as a general guide of what should be built, I should never go completely by the drawings.

I'm not looking for a heated debate here, so I'll just say that I guess if a Vans rep had told me that, my bull...t indicator light would have went from blinkin to full "ON", and I would have disagreed.

Dave A.
6A build

 

[az_gila]

It was one of the early responses...

I'm not looking for a heated debate here, so I'll just say that I guess if a Vans rep had told me that, my bull...t indicator light would have went from blinkin to full "ON", and I would have disagreed.

Dave A.
6A build

If you are adding electric flaps to a tip-up -6A, you can (probably will) have an interference problem with the forward upright flap support - the one from the floor to the cross-piece. It will hit the cross tube of the canopy release.

The fix is to move things a bit, but make sure the the seat backs are in place. The upright can get shimmed back a bit at the top, and the cross tube supports can be shimmed forward a bit with a spacer under the UHMW blocks. The limit is caused by the seat backs.

The comment about the -6 plans being a guide is actually correct...

 

[koda2]

Flap

I you can (probably will) have an interference problem with the forward upright flap support

Gil,
You are correct and, yes, I did. The original electric flap was built without concern for the tip up canopy lock rod.....and, neither fit. I was able to fabricate all new electric flap parts, center floor ribs and floor panels that were slightly different from the plans and get the flap housing to work with the tipup canopy rod.

If there is anybody left still building 6 tip-ups, I agree they should fully look at how all the electric flap parts interact before assembling any of it.

Dave A.

 

[az_gila]

Yep...

Gil,
You are correct and, yes, I did. The original electric flap was built without concern for the tip up canopy lock rod.....and, neither fit. I was able to fabricate all new electric flap parts, center floor ribs and floor panels that were slightly different from the plans and get the flap housing to work with the tipup canopy rod.

If there is anybody left still building 6 tip-ups, I agree they should fully look at how all the electric flap parts interact before assembling any of it.

Dave A.

...and they probably should read the Frank Justice Supplemental Instructions too....

http://misc.edt.com/homewing//justice/index.html

 

[WenEng]

Timely advice. Yes there are still builders (me) ....

Building a tip up -6A with electric flaps. I haven't got to that section of construction yet, but will for sure keep this thread in my check list when I start that section. Thanks.

 

[gasman]

I happened to have the lock rod mounted when I started the dog house for the flap motor assy. I built around it with no problem. With the entire unit complete and working, I tore it out and tossed it on the shlef. I did not like that thing between the seats. So I mounted the flap motor on the side of the cargo wall. Like on the 8. It is now out of the way. Easy to get to, and it was really easy to build. I now have my space between the seats back. Elbow room was needed.

After that was complete and working, I tore that assy out and am going with manual flaps. I want control, and I want it now!
Each time I read about a motor not working, I just shake my head................... Van had it right the first time........ Almost.

I made a few improvements that make manual flaps a joy to use.


ps the buba factor is still there.

 

[koda2]

Pix

gasman,
Got any pix of your design?
Dave A.

 

[gasman]

gasman,
Got any pix of your design?
Dave A.

Manual or electric?

 

[koda2]

Manual flaps

If I ever sour on the electric flaps, I would easily consider manual.
I had manual flaps on my Tomahawk and they were a hoot to use. Ergonomic and instant deployment. You could even get a sense of airspeed by the pressure on the handle.
The Cessnas I trained in had the electric flap lever clear across the panel, almost out of peripheral vision and getting the flap lever in the right detent required turning your head, reaching across the cabin and momentarily losing awareness of the outside. Crappy design IMO.

Dave A.

 

[L.Adamson]

If I ever sour on the electric flaps, I would easily consider manual.
I had manual flaps on my Tomahawk and they were a hoot to use. Ergonomic and instant deployment. You could even get a sense of airspeed by the pressure on the handle.
The Cessnas I trained in had the electric flap lever clear across the panel, almost out of peripheral vision and getting the flap lever in the right detent required turning your head, reaching across the cabin and momentarily losing awareness of the outside. Crappy design IMO.

I used to fly Pipers, but not the Tomahawk; yet the Johnson bar flaps were easy to use. It's not the same in RV's. The flap handle is between the seats and two people, and not so easy to manipilate. In other words, I do not like manual flaps in side by side RV's. I have a flap switch right next to the throttle. That way, I can just use a finger to operate it while my hand stays on the throttle. That is quite conviienent if you ask me. Much of the time I just use half flaps in the 6A. They're easy to see out the canopy.

L.Adamson --- RV6A

 

[Rick6a]

Surely, this debate will never end....

....If I ever sour on the electric flaps, I would easily consider manual....The Cessnas I trained in had the electric flap lever clear across the panel.......getting the flap lever in the right detent required turning your head, reaching across the cabin and momentarily losing awareness of the outside. Crappy design IMO.....

Dave,

My C-150 was set up the same way you describe in your post and I too thought it a clumsy, inefficient way to operate its electric flaps. It was that experience that lead me to approach the problem of flap management in a way that best suits me. Still, before you decide to go manual, you should be aware things can sometimes get "intimate" in RV's that sport manual flaps.

Here's are detail shots of the flap handle in an RV4, the flap toggle on my old C-150 and my RV electric flap setup. With regard to this RV4, with just two settings (20? & 40?) you cannot "finesse" its manual flap deployment. But more important than that, I don't like that flap bar handle....it's design placement WILL naturally obstruct free movement of the flap handle when the backseater has his legs normally outstretched to reach his own set of rudder pedals. On the side-by-side models, the flap handle is located between the seats and if you have flown in a side-by side RV with manual flaps, you know how tight that fit can sometimes be. That is just my opinion. Is it biased?

Here is Van's own literature repeated word for word: This option (electric) eliminates the manual flap handle between the seats (RV-6/6A) or alongside the passenger?s left leg (RV-4). More convenient and adds to useable room. Driven by a small industrial motor/gear unit, the flaps extend/retract in about 8 seconds. All factory prototypes have been converted to electric flaps.

Sounds to me that when applied to RV's, Van's knows from long experience that the manual flap option is not necessarily the greatest thing to come along since sliced bread.

Some RV designs do not even offer the manual flap option, are these airplanes lacking something diehard manual flap enthusiasts/advocates would have you believe? I really don't think so. Electric on the other hand offers the pilot an infinite number of settings. For instance when the airspeed is hovering just above 100 MPH, without taking my hand off the stick I can momentarily "tickle" the electric flap switch using thumb pressure on the joystick switch and a slight 3? to 5? of flap deployment is all it takes to quickly slow the airplane down to well below the maximum flap extention speed. You just can't do that with manual flaps. In this RV-4, your only option is to deploy 20? of flaps or 40? of flaps or no flaps at all but first you have to tell the backseater to move his left leg out of the way.