What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

EFIS

S

Smilin' Jack

Well Known Member
I am at a loss of words since I have gotten back into small aircraft why folks make what I consider investments in multiple back up of EFIS displays with steam gauges.
I see advertisements for dual EFIS with steam gauge backups. Unless I have missed something we don't even have this in our corporate jets we fly. If you read the Nail reports you find out that the percentage of fatal accidents of which those operations is IFR your chances of being killed are the greatest.
It's not the avionics that save the pilot it is the skill to use and have the knowledge to fly the aircraft when the chips are down. Dual EFIS with battery backups for an hour is plenty of time to get you on the ground. But none of this matters if your IFR and the fan stops.
Yes I flew IFR single engine when the job I was at stated either fly or someone standing in line will take your place. I was lucky with only suffering an partial engine failure at night flying freight in a C206 and landing in an ex canadian airforce base out side London, ONT. A cylinder split at the barrel and oil was coming out fast. This was at night, fortunately VFR on a moon lite night. The controller told me about the base which was only 5 miles from my position. Another few minutes wasting time getting down would have resulted is a dead stick night onto a snow covered runway with no lights.
I almost froze to death trying to scale a security fence and walked to find a house a miles away.. this is another story.
My point is I want to fly my plane with nice displays. A skyview display would
be great or any EFIS display, with built in Transponder and traffic. Battery backup and later add a second EFIS display. I will use the IPAD for my Charts and approach plates. Yes we use the IPAD now for all our corporate flying like many operators do. Approximately 60 percent of the corporate flight departments are using EFB's now.
I will close this by saying I understand some folks just want the beat the Jones' on their displays... that's all good in friendly competition but in the safety aspect it does no more than add weight to the problem.
I have trained several pilots using EFIS with steam guages backups only to have to cover up all the steam gauges to teach them how to fly EFIS.

With Xwing's new display of syn vision for your IPAD I might Just settle down to one EFIS, my IPAD and a 800 dollar ADAHRS.
Food for thought

Just my 02 cents.
Love to hear from you.
Smilin' Jack
ATP CFI-AI
com glider
1961160
 
Hi Jack,

I have a single EFIS (SkyView) and no back up steam or other (unless you consider the GPS derived PFD in my Garmin 510 a backup). While flying along in IMC a couple weeks ago I came to the stark realization that if SkyView went dark, I would be in big, big trouble. I actually dimmed SkyView and started to fly by reference to the Garmin 510 alone. While straight and level, it was possible, but I was occasionally being buffeted by turbulence, it was raining and my window had become nearly completely obscured by fog, and water. The occasional drip, drip on my ankle from my sieve like tip-up, really made the possibility of an electrical failure of SkyView a stark reality. I am currently self limiting myself to VFR ops until I find a suitable back up. I am currently thinking an electric attitude indicator. Maybe a MGL extreme or similar. I may just bite the bullet and install a second 10" Skyview. Your suggestion of the Wing X with adahr may be a solution. I will have to give that some thought.
 
apkp777 said:
I may just bite the bullet and install a second 10" Skyview. Your suggestion of the Wing X with adahr may be a solution. I will have to give that some thought.
Click to expand...

This just screams Dynon D6. Great B/U very affordable at $1600.
 
I am in the camp that you need a backup plan to any single device if its function is required to keep you alive. But I do NOT believe that backup needs to be steam gages. Lots of folks build that way - some simply aren't comfortable with it. But I see nothing WRONG with using Steam backups.

Paul
 
The new Gemini Mini Efis at 1300 dollars seems to be a near perfect back up. IF they add a RMI feature one will be in my panal.

George
 
EIFS are great but as a computer engineer, I believe the more complex a piece of equipment is, the more chance for it to go south.

I have two EIFS with redundant AHAR/magnetometer, yet I have a full set of steam gauges and they give me that level of comfort to fly in IFR condition with a bit more ease.

If I ever build another plane, it will have the essential steam gauges as back up.
 
Backup

Have you seen the iFly 700? The 2 things I don't like are external battery and 12 VDC operation only. Cheap, simple, effective, fast, and totally independent of dark panel. Like the iPad you can store checklists and with backlighting is easier to read in the dark when you need it most. Just bought a Mooney M20J 201 last wednesday and the iFly covers a major deficiency as you described.

Dennis Snyder

0% completion (or purchase)
100% thinking about it
 
Interesting Idea for a Poll

"It's not the avionics that save the pilot it is the skill to use and have the knowledge to fly the aircraft when the chips are down. Dual EFIS with battery backups for an hour is plenty of time to get you on the ground. But none of this matters if your IFR and the fan stops."

While this thread has quickly degenerated into a EFIS discussion, I wonder how many RV pilots that don't fly for a living undergo regular, recurrent training (flight reviews don't count).
How often do you put a hood on and fly with a safety pilot capable of critiquing you?
How often do you instrument train with an instructor?
How often do you sim train (with an instructor)?
For non-instrument rated pilots, how often do you train with an instructor?

Many pilots tell me they practice regularly. I find flying is similar to the game of golf in many ways. The low single digit and scratch golfers are the ones that spend the most time with instructors. The high handicappers practice on their own (if they practice at all), mostly reinforcing bad habits.
Flying, like golf, is really about developing and reinforcing strong fundamentals. The reinforcing part is important. Once you have a solid base, it's mostly about making small corrections.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
 
Tony,

Do you have a dual AHRS?

Single screen IMC with no real backup is very risky.....we would like to keep you around so please think hard about doing this again!

apkp777 said:
Hi Jack,

I have a single EFIS (SkyView) and no back up steam or other (unless you consider the GPS derived PFD in my Garmin 510 a backup). While flying along in IMC a couple weeks ago I came to the stark realization that if SkyView went dark, I would be in big, big trouble. I actually dimmed SkyView and started to fly by reference to the Garmin 510 alone. While straight and level, it was possible, but I was occasionally being buffeted by turbulence, it was raining and my window had become nearly completely obscured by fog, and water. The occasional drip, drip on my ankle from my sieve like tip-up, really made the possibility of an electrical failure of SkyView a stark reality. I am currently self limiting myself to VFR ops until I find a suitable back up. I am currently thinking an electric attitude indicator. Maybe a MGL extreme or similar. I may just bite the bullet and install a second 10" Skyview. Your suggestion of the Wing X with adahr may be a solution. I will have to give that some thought.
Click to expand...
 
This thread is pretty much the topic that prompted me to ask "what steam 'round' guages would you keep" thread a few weeks ago.

The primary reason I consider round gauges is that I prefer orthogonal backup systems. To be honest, I still remember being trained to keep a plane coordinated using a "ball and wet compass". It would not save me in an unusual attitude but I'd be able to keep an upright plane upright. (btw, I don't suggest this technique as a fallback for an IFR panel).

Eventually my "old school" panel will get an update with an EFIS. The 696 will be my "big moving map".
 
Les Featherston was flying his Rocket one summer day when a cloud to cloud lightning strike occured nearby. His EFIS went black and his radios (plural) quit. He had only one EFIS but I have little doubt that if he had 2 or 3 they all would have gone out.

His steam guage backups continued to work.

With a blank EFIS in the clouds there is little comfort in knowing that statistically your fan is more likely to quit than you EFIS.

There are also many who started their panel with a single EFIS and backup steam then added a second EFIS to display additional info during flight not necessarily as an added backup.\\From my standpoint an EFIS is a computer and I have seen enough blue screens of death on computers that I want good old mechanical backup even though I realize that vacuum pumps and gyros can and have failed.
 
N395V said:
Les Featherston was flying his Rocket one summer day when a cloud to cloud lightning strike occured nearby. His EFIS went black and his radios (plural) quit. He had only one EFIS but I have little doubt that if he had 2 or 3 they all would have gone out.

His steam guage backups continued to work.

With a blank EFIS in the clouds there is little comfort in knowing that statistically your fan is more likely to quit than you EFIS.

There are also many who started their panel with a single EFIS and backup steam then added a second EFIS to display additional info during flight not necessarily as an added backup.\\From my standpoint an EFIS is a computer and I have seen enough blue screens of death on computers that I want good old mechanical backup even though I realize that vacuum pumps and gyros can and have failed.
Click to expand...

Was flying a few years back IFR at night on a VOR approach...steam airspeed needle popped off the shaft - no lightning in sight.

So I guess I really need 2 EFIS, 2 of every steam gauge, 2 engines, 2 props, 4 radios, double fuel, bullet proof windscreen, airbags, 2 parachutes, defribrilator, and a partridge in a pear tree.

At some point you just have to have faith and a little luck.
 
This is great discussion and I thank everyone..
The reason is to make us, myself included realize what instruments we have or don't have when various aircraft systems malfunction.
See how long your aircraft battery last when you shut off the battery switch and alternator switch in flight? What equipment do you have left?

this will not hurt your battery.
Did your displays tell you things quit?

Thanks all for you input.
I am off to the hospital for a little operation...

Smilin' Jack
 
Just remember that if you are going to eschew electrons for a backup, and go "entirely" mechanical in case the computers fail, you're going to need a full vacuum system (and keep it maintained) - even electrical T&B's can't be counted on to survive a lightning strike. Of course, you could ground-rule-out IFR flight too close to thunderstorms...

Better dust of that ADF, and maybe that old Low Frequency Range whiel you're at it.... ;)
 
I like these threads as I am still in the planning stages for my -7. Always informational as well as entertaining!:)

I have pretty much decided no vacuum system, but I do want steam gauges, one reason being EFIS is just another computer, and I have not owned a computer since I first got one in 1984 or so that has not had problems. Both Apples and PC's BTW. I just am not willing to trust my life to a computer, even three of them backing each other up, when steam gauges are cheap and simple in comparison.

I realize it may be silly for to draw the line at multiple EFIS, but I just don't trust computers very much because they have not proven themselves to be very trustworthy. I will have an iPad as well as a handheld GPS, so that's two external power sources as well.

The other reason I want steam gauges is I plan on flying a fair amount of aerobatics, and I have 18 years of looking at steam gauges while doing so. I see no reason to change that now, it will be easier and quicker for me to get airspeed and altitude info from steam gauges. I would think even glancing at an EFIS while flying aerobatics, especially a contest sequence, would be very distracting for me, anyway. I'll put the steam gauges in the right panel, and fly the plane from the right seat during acro. As always, YMMV!
 
Last edited:
N355DW said:
I like these threads as I am still in the planning stages for my -7. Always informational as well as entertaining!:)

I have pretty much decided no vacuum system, but I do want steam gauges, one reason being EFIS is just another computer, and I have not owned a computer since I first got one in 1984 or so that has not had problems. Both Apples and PC's BTW. I just am not willing to trust my life to a computer, even three of them backing each other up, when steam gauges are cheap and simple in comparison.

I realize it may be silly for to draw the line at multiple EFIS, but I just don't trust computers very much because they have not proven themselves to be very trustworthy. I will have an iPad as well as a handheld GPS, so that's two external power sources as well.

The other reason I want steam gauges is I plan on flying a fair amount of aerobatics, and I have 18 years of looking at steam gauges while doing so. I see no reason to change that now, it will be easier and quicker for me to get airspeed and altitude info from steam gauges. I would think even glancing at an EFIS while flying aerobatics, especially a contest sequence, would be very distracting for me, anyway. I'll put the steam gauges in the right panel, and fly the plane from the right seat during acro. As always, YMMV!
Click to expand...

Two points however....(since you love these threads...)

1) If you don't trust computers, I hope you never get on an airliner! ;)

2) For acro, ASI and ALT gauges are fine, but you'll destroy any mechanical gyro pretty quickly!
 
My buddy.

Gregg Connell is a friend with a Pitts Model 12 and puts on airshows, with a GRT EFIS installed. After his aerobatic sequence, his GRT is toast and quite out of whack, with a cockeyed horizon and so on, for quite a while before it's usable but aerobatics hasn't hurt it...yet.

Best,
 
RV8R999 said:
So I guess I really need 2 EFIS, 2 of every steam gauge, 2 engines, 2 props, 4 radios, double fuel, bullet proof windscreen, airbags, 2 parachutes, defribrilator, and a partridge in a pear tree.
Click to expand...

All just for a single pilot:eek:
 
If you're dead set on vacuum backups to keep you right side up, consider cagable gyros and a (engine) manifold vacuum system. Simpler, lighter, and way more reliable than a pump, and you can turn it off when you're not using it. When you need it, uncage the gyros, open a valve, and pull the throttle back 4-5 inches below WOT. As long as the engine is turning (it doesn't really even have to be running) you'll have vacuum.

ALL of my time in the clouds so far has been behind steam gauges and vacuum gyros, and I've only recently given much thought to EFIS (I'm quite a way out from any possible purchase), but as a backup to a full IFR EFIS I "think" I'd be comfortable with a D-6 with internal battery backup, though. Anyone have a MTBF for that unit?
 
longranger said:
...as a backup to a full IFR EFIS I "think" I'd be comfortable with a D-6 with internal battery backup, though.
Click to expand...

This is what I've installed...Skyview 10" in front of the pilot, 430W for the certified box to enable shooting approaches, and a D-6 to the right of the radio stack as a backup.

Both SV and D6 w/ battery backups, on separate busses, one on the E-buss. Each has their own magnetometer and gyros, although I'll have to split Pitot/Static/AOA to go to each (of course).

No vacuum system to maintain (or fail). Full redundancy for primary flight instrumentation.
 
Better dust of that ADF, and maybe that old Low Frequency Range whiel you're at it....
Click to expand...

Now if we could just get the airlines to, once again, build those big bonfires to follow we'd have a good low tech solution. At least for the nav.
 
So I guess I really need 2 EFIS, 2 of every steam gauge, 2 engines, 2 props, 4 radios, double fuel, bullet proof windscreen, airbags, 2 parachutes, defribrilator, and a partridge in a pear tree.
Click to expand...

I tried that, it was a disaster.

I set the defibrillator on low and it killed the partridge who promptly fell out of the tree and blocked the carb on the left engine which then quit making power. Stepped up the voltage to the second level and it killed all the rats who were nesting in, and had, destroyed the parachutes. Most of the double fuel was unusable as it went only to the dead engine.

The bulletproof glass did help a little when the goose hit it.

The 4 radios continued to work and I used them to ask for help, but I was afraid to use them since I by then had strayed in to a TFR for Santa. I just hope them airbags still work.
 
Ironflight said:
Better dust of that ADF, and maybe that old Low Frequency Range whiel you're at it.... ;)
Click to expand...

I only removed the ADF from my 170 after it went tango uniform. Pretty satisfying to raise the hood and see a runway at the end of an NDB approach; kinda makes you feel like you earned it. (Never used it "in anger" though). Also was was handy for listening to ball games on clear channel AM stations on long cross countries (XM serves that now, but the ADF didn't need a subscription...).
 
N395V said:
I tried that, it was a disaster.

I set the defibrillator on low and it killed the partridge who promptly fell out of the tree and blocked the carb on the left engine which then quit making power. Stepped up the voltage to the second level and it killed all the rats who were nesting in, and had, destroyed the parachutes. Most of the double fuel was unusable as it went only to the dead engine.

The bulletproof glass did help a little when the goose hit it.

The 4 radios continued to work and I used them to ask for help, but I was afraid to use them since I by then had strayed in to a TFR for Santa. I just hope them airbags still work.
Click to expand...

well done!
 
Ironflight said:
Two points however....(since you love these threads...)

1) If you don't trust computers, I hope you never get on an airliner! ;)

2) For acro, ASI and ALT gauges are fine, but you'll destroy any mechanical gyro pretty quickly!
Click to expand...

Haha! You are right! I used to fly airliners! Small ones any anyway, the EMB -120 Brasilia, it had a full 5 screen EFIS and I lost two of them when I was doing my Captain IOE! 3 left was okay under the MEL, so I could fly it home. It was a very nice panel! And it did have a "peanut" steam gauge backup! ;-)

I still don't like the idea of the Airbus with nothing but electrons connecting the yoke to the controls. Just gives me the shivers every time I get on one! I'm waiting to see how the CF body 787 does when flying around CB's before I get on one, I'm not convinced they will do well with a lightning strike yet.

As far as the gyros go, in our acro planes they are either in a removable panel, or in my case, I will just pull a dedicated cb when going for an acro flight. No worries!

Nice job on the dead stick, btw, and great write up, thanks for sharing!

Damon
 
Last edited:
Oh Gosh...Oh Gee

I guess I'm too old to go to the all Glass other than the faces;)on the guages
To wit: loss of battery relay in IMC at night, vacuum pump failure in IMC over North Georgia many years ago. and just plain outright engine stoppage due to loose fuel line on injector spider. I like to keep some options available when I fly or I won't fly. Picture of panel of N364SJ before installing the TKM MX170C last week:
14ctz4o.jpg
 
OK, but consider this: Dual AHRS and DUAL EFIS's. The heading information on the AHRS don't agree. Or the attitudes don't agree?
How do you Resolve this situation without a third input (the standby instruments, or the whiskey compass, or the AutoPilot if it has track data)? I've seen these types of failures. I want to have a resolution method in place so that I can safely get to my destination even with the failure. It's NOT about keeping up with the Jone's.... Especially when you're consistantly doing approaches to 200' @ 1/2 mile and frequently have to take the extra 100'.... Yes, you MUST be proficent with the technology, BUT, trust and verify....

Smilin' Jack said:
I am at a loss of words since I have gotten back into small aircraft why folks make what I consider investments in multiple back up of EFIS displays with steam gauges.
I see advertisements for dual EFIS with steam gauge backups. Unless I have missed something we don't even have this in our corporate jets we fly. If you read the Nail reports you find out that the percentage of fatal accidents of which those operations is IFR your chances of being killed are the greatest.
It's not the avionics that save the pilot it is the skill to use and have the knowledge to fly the aircraft when the chips are down. Dual EFIS with battery backups for an hour is plenty of time to get you on the ground. But none of this matters if your IFR and the fan stops.
Yes I flew IFR single engine when the job I was at stated either fly or someone standing in line will take your place. I was lucky with only suffering an partial engine failure at night flying freight in a C206 and landing in an ex canadian airforce base out side London, ONT. A cylinder split at the barrel and oil was coming out fast. This was at night, fortunately VFR on a moon lite night. The controller told me about the base which was only 5 miles from my position. Another few minutes wasting time getting down would have resulted is a dead stick night onto a snow covered runway with no lights.
I almost froze to death trying to scale a security fence and walked to find a house a miles away.. this is another story.
My point is I want to fly my plane with nice displays. A skyview display would
be great or any EFIS display, with built in Transponder and traffic. Battery backup and later add a second EFIS display. I will use the IPAD for my Charts and approach plates. Yes we use the IPAD now for all our corporate flying like many operators do. Approximately 60 percent of the corporate flight departments are using EFB's now.
I will close this by saying I understand some folks just want the beat the Jones' on their displays... that's all good in friendly competition but in the safety aspect it does no more than add weight to the problem.
I have trained several pilots using EFIS with steam guages backups only to have to cover up all the steam gauges to teach them how to fly EFIS.

With Xwing's new display of syn vision for your IPAD I might Just settle down to one EFIS, my IPAD and a 800 dollar ADAHRS.
Food for thought

Just my 02 cents.
Love to hear from you.
Smilin' Jack
ATP CFI-AI
com glider
1961160
Click to expand...
 
Would anyone consider the WingX synthetic vision with bluetooth ADHAR a suitable back up display? How about the Garmin 400 or 500 GPS derived PFD?
 
I am going to install a Skyview system with two screens and one backup battery. Additionally I will install an electric T/B indicator. Here in Germany we must have a conventional ASI, Altimeter and compass, not bad at all I think. So even when both my gyro instruments are electric powered I still have some kind of backup. I chosed a T/B because I think/hope it will survive my occasional aerobatics. I`m also installing a heated pitot probe and I will only fly VFR with my RV-7 so this should do it and I will feel comfortable in marginal weather.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top