EFII System32 costs

[CaptPausert]

I am getting a really good deal on an O-360 from an A&P friend of mine. But since it is carburated with regular Mags I am considering switching to the Fly EFII System 32. Are there any costs beyond the initial purchase price that I should be aware of? Also any idea how much the carb and mags off the O-360 would be worth? They have been through the shop recently though I am not sure how many hours are on them I need to go visit my friend and get the logbook.

From anyone running this system is it worth it?

Thanks

 

[DanH]

Doing the initial install chores for an SDS system right now. Figure $0.75~1K for the Andair fuel valve and misc plumbing hardware. Then consider what you want for electrical power backup.

No idea about the used parts.

 

[riseric]

Extras

This is the fuel valve Dan mentions, needed to return the unused fuel to the tank it was taken from.
https://www.andair.co.uk/product/duplex-fuel-selector-fs2020-d2/


Consider extra tubing and fittings to modify the tanks.
Extra clamps (adel) to hold the extra tubing in the fuselage.


On top of backup electricity, consider installing the Bus Manager and the associated accessory kit.
https://www.flyefii.com/products/bus-manager/


Depending on your setup, you'll need to connect the throttle body to the filter box, this may be handy.
https://www.flyefii.com/products/accessories/throttle-body-flange-adapter/


And up front, you'll have to connect the bulkhead feeder fuel fitting to the injector rail on one side, then to the other side rail, then to the fuel regulator, then to the bulkhead return fuel fitting. All custom lenght hoses.
I had mine made by Tom's shop. I can't compliment enough the hose quality they produce.
https://www.aircraftspecialty.com/kitplanehoses/hoses.html

 

[Mark33]

……(snip)..I am considering switching to the Fly EFII System 32. Are there any costs beyond the initial purchase price that I should be aware of? From anyone running this system is it worth it?
Thanks

Both SDS and EFII offer very similar systems, and in my opinion, definitely worth it. Electronic ignition and electronic fuel injection really modernize these old technology air-cooled engines. It takes a little bit of effort to them dialed in, but once you do, you’ll never consider any other kind of injection or ignition system.

Regarding cost, once all said and done, I think you’ll find it pretty much a wash when compared to installing quality systems such as Airflow Performance and duel P-mags.

 

[TS Flightlines]

Brian, with the limited space around the valve box, make sure you order the valve configured correctly. WE use the EF20 90* elbows; that way everything fits under the stock covers.

Tom

 

[Walt]

Both SDS and EFII offer very similar systems, and in my opinion, definitely worth it. Electronic ignition and electronic fuel injection really modernize these old technology air-cooled engines. It takes a little bit of effort to them dialed in, but once you do, you’ll never consider any other kind of injection or ignition system.

Regarding cost, once all said and done, I think you’ll find it pretty much a wash when compared to installing quality systems such as Airflow Performance and duel P-mags.

Uhoh, here comes that old fart again with the voice of reason....

What exactly are the big advantages of a computer-controlled lead burning Lycoming engine system?
(Please don't say 'easier starting!)

Increased reliability?
More power?
Significant fuel savings?
Lighter?
Simpler? (doubt this with an electrically dependant engine).
Cheaper?

 

[rocketman1988]

Uhoh, here comes that old fart again with the voice of reason....

What exactly are the big advantages of a computer-controlled lead burning Lycoming engine system?
(Please don't say 'easier starting!)

Increased reliability?
More power?
Significant fuel savings?
Lighter?
Simpler? (doubt this with an electrically dependant engine).
Cheaper?

We get it, you see no valid reason for EFII.

That’s fine but everyone has their own wants, needs, and opinions…and each opinion is worth exactly the same, no more and no less than yours…

Oh, I love my EFII…

 

[DanH]

Brian, with the limited space around the valve box, make sure you order the valve configured correctly. WE use the EF20 90* elbows; that way everything fits under the stock covers.

The Andair elbows are the choice if you'll be using Tom's pre-bent plumbing kit. That said, if you're bending your own tube, FF20 female pump fittings allow clocking ordinary AN822 elbows.

That’s fine but everyone has their own wants, needs, and opinions…and each opinion is worth exactly the same, no more and no less than yours…

Respectfully, that is not at all true.

 

[Mark33]

Uhoh, here comes that old fart again with the voice of reason....

What exactly are the big advantages of a computer-controlled lead burning Lycoming engine system?
(Please don't say 'easier starting!)

Increased reliability?
More power?
Significant fuel savings?
Lighter?
Simpler? (doubt this with an electrically dependant engine).
Cheaper?

Hey Walt,..you old fart! LOL!!

I probably can't quantify or give any specific advantages over other systems other than my personal experience with these systems. Once dialed in, I do give them a bit of an advantage of overall ease of operation, smoothness, tune ability, and yes, possibly reliability....at least from the ongoing maintenance side. The entire system is basically solid state, so other than the electric fuel pump(s) there's no moving parts....so there's nothing to wear out. I think if installed correctly and with proper redundancy incorporated into the installation, these systems have proven themselves extremely safe and reliable.

Regarding cost, as I previously mentioned, when comparing the price of a quality mechanical fuel injection system along with two P-mags, I think it ends up being a wash.

One thing that has always really stood out to me; and this really goes back to easy of operation, is ease starting...especially hot starts. With the high pressure fuel rail and continuous flow of cool fuel, vapor lock is a thing of the past. These systems also absolutely love car gas....both with and without ethanol. I run regular pump gas all the time and my engine never misses a beat. My airplane actually starts easier when it's hot than it does when it's cold....even when running car gas. Overall, both SDS and EFII just make day to day operation more "car like". Jump in, hit the key, and it starts!

These systems may not be for everyone, but when comparing them to a modern day car, I don't know anyone who'd favor old school points, condenser, distributor, and carburetor over a modern day computer controlled electronic ignition and fuel injection.

So, once again, it may not be for everyone, but I absolutely love mine, and may even be good for other old farts like us.

 

[airguy]

Uhoh, here comes that old fart again with the voice of reason....

What exactly are the big advantages of a computer-controlled lead burning Lycoming engine system?
(Please don't say 'easier starting!)

Increased reliability?
More power?
Significant fuel savings?
Lighter?
Simpler? (doubt this with an electrically dependant engine).
Cheaper?

What's with the lead?
SDS and EFII32 both allow you to run premium auto pump gas, including ethanol, without vapor lock problems thanks to the high pressure fuel rail. Not only do you actually get a small REAL reduction in total fuel burn, but you're buying the fuel for half price. So yes, significant fuel savings. Reliability? Are you talking about the 500-hr mag checks here? Then again, yes, more reliability. Lighter? Absolutely, no question about that.

You're not running a 1950's engine in your current automobile - you don't have to do it in your airplane either.

 

[Walt]

Being that every new engine comes with mags and FI std, you'd have to remove and sell those, not a high demand items so probably take a big hit.

The SDS system from their website sells for:
Lycoming 4 cyl. EM-5 dual ECU, no options, fuel and spark on all 8 plugs $6120

That doesn't include all the misc stuff you'll need to support it (like Dan's fuel valve), or the fully redundant electrical system you need, so I really don't think it will be even close to a wash by the time you're done.

I get that it's cool, kinda like a glass panel for the engine?
I look at things from a more practical standpoint is all.

And I doubt it starts any better than my old school stuff which literally has millions of flight hours of proven operation, and if it does break, it can be repaired by any junior AP that's ever worked on an airplane, anywhere in the world.

 

[Walt]

What's with the lead?
SDS and EFII32 both allow you to run premium auto pump gas, including ethanol, without vapor lock problems thanks to the high pressure fuel rail. Not only do you actually get a small REAL reduction in total fuel burn, but you're buying the fuel for half price. So yes, significant fuel savings. Reliability? Are you talking about the 500-hr mag checks here? Then again, yes, more reliability. Lighter? Absolutely, no question about that.

You're not running a 1950's engine in your current automobile - you don't have to do it in your airplane either.

I'm pretty sure you don't carry gas cans and uber over to the local gas station at every fuel stop

 

[Taltruda]

Uhoh, here comes that old fart again with the voice of reason....

What exactly are the big advantages of a computer-controlled lead burning Lycoming engine system?
(Please don't say 'easier starting!)

Increased reliability?
More power?
Significant fuel savings?
Lighter?
Simpler? (doubt this with an electrically dependant engine).
Cheaper?

I’m with you Walt.. I don’t get it.. Personally, I wouldn’t want an electrically dependent airplane. I’m willing to do P-mags because of their self generating capability, but what’s the benefit of EFI on a aircraft engine that essentially runs constant power (WOT),or has a very small range of power settings. It seems that mechanical fuel injection can be set up to be super efficient at a chosen cruise setting, and doesn’t rely on electrons to keep running…no need for second alternators, dual batteries, dual ECUs…

I also don’t understand why someone would want to route all your electronics though a single VPX box either.. as an owner of a EXP-2 system, they eventually go T-U, and get outdated.. I see VPX as a negative.. give me conventional CBs any day!

 

[upperdeck]

My new engine from Titan came with the EFII system directly from the factory, saying that all new engines comes with mags is just false.

Building from new, my system didn't require much more cost than the EFII bus manager and upgrading from the standard van's fuel valve. VERY minor cost increases for a great improvement in my opinion. Which includes greater simplicity in operation, finer tuning, easier starting, especially hot starts, cheaper auto plugs, programmable timing and fuel mapping, greater fuel flexibility, etc.

 

[rocketman1988]

We can agree to disagree...

The Andair elbows are the choice if you'll be using Tom's pre-bent plumbing kit. That said, if you're bending your own tube, FF20 female pump fittings allow clocking ordinary AN822 elbows.



Respectfully, that is not at all true.

Yes Dan, it is certainly true.

Everyone has their own opinion. Yours is worth EXACTLY what everyone else's is worth. Whether others agree with your opinion or not is a different story but your opinion is just that, an opinion.

It becomes an issue when one believes their OPINION is the only one that is valid.

May I quote you?

"Respectfully, that is not at all true."

 

[Mark33]

Being that every new engine comes with mags and FI std, you'd have to remove and sell those, not a high demand items so probably take a big hit.

The SDS system from their website sells for:
Lycoming 4 cyl. EM-5 dual ECU, no options, fuel and spark on all 8 plugs $6120

That doesn't include all the misc stuff you'll need to support it (like Dan's fuel valve), or the fully redundant electrical system you need, so I really don't think it will be even close to a wash by the time you're done.

I get that it's cool, kinda like a glass panel for the engine?
I look at things from a more practical standpoint is all.

And I doubt it starts any better than my old school stuff which literally has millions of flight hours of proven operation, and if it does break, it can be repaired by any junior AP that's ever worked on an airplane, anywhere in the world.

Not necessarily true. If you’re ordering a new engine through Vans, you have the option to have both the ignition and fuel systems deleted from your order. That’s what I did when ordering my 390 for my new -14 build. This was a huge savings and basically paid for my system.

You also mentioned the fuel valve. I also deleted the Andair fuel valve from my kit order which basically covered the cost of the duplex valve.

In reality, the only thing that I had to add to my setup that may not be “necessary” with a more traditional installation, is a backup alternator. Other than that, like I said, it was about a wash.

Oh, there’s one thing that I forgot to mention and it did add a little extra expense,….and that was the custom fit plumbing system that I ordered from Tom. I could have rolled my own plumbing, but in my opinion, Tom and Steve’s plumbing kit was worth its weight in gold. It really saves a lot of headache and bad words.

 

[johnbright]

Off topic from thread title but some thoughts AFAIK:

• With either SDS or EFII mixture change with altitude is automatic and hot and cold starts are ritual free.
• I don't know about EFII but SDS will automatically cancel LOP at high power settings to protect the engine.
• SDS injectors are inside the baffles, no question about cowl clearance.
• EFII Bus Manager install manual includes SPOFs.

 

[Tommy123]

Are you using tube radios too Walt?

 

[crabandy]

On my Dual mag lycoming electronic ignition was a no brainer, especially with glass panels becoming cheaper than steam. A Nuckolls electric system with a backup alternator gets you a lot of redundancy mags or not.
My EI was cheaper than capacitors/wires/plugs for my yellow tagged dual mag. Didn’t need the 500 hour overhaul and it’s $40 for new plugs.
7ish GPH at 160 KTAS LOP, gets better above 10K.

If I had flying mags/gyros it would be different, but building EI and glass panels just make sense.

 

[Walt]

Are you using tube radios too Walt?

I get it, I just think it's important that builders understand what they are getting into with full electronic fuel injection/ignitions systems.

I specialized in (and still do) repairing and installing avionics as a career, so I'm fully aware of the capabilities of modern panels and systems. Comparing modern glass panels to "FADEC" style Lyc's are 2 different things. Glass is now the standard for panels, and for good reason.

On the other hand, that is not the case at all for our little engines. I get it, everyone wants the latest and "greatest", but I've always been a bit conservative fellow, IE, my transition to a glass cockpit took a long time (grew up with VOR/ADF/charts) and that transition was slow and methodical until I had the confidence in the systems, and they matured to a point that reliability was proven (I still see a lot of old school airspeed and altimeters in glass aircraft because people don't fully trust electronics).

So here we have a bunch of amateur builder/mechanics, many with basically no aviation mechanical or electronic installation experience installing computers to keep the engine running. Make no mistake, these systems are experimental and flight time with most if not all, are in the hundreds/thousands of hours vs millions of hours with our 'old school' systems.

So, the reason I post all this is so new folks jumping into this hobby don't get the wrong idea and think they gotta have all this fancy stuff or they will be mocked for staying in the stone age.

I've had every electronic ignition system out there installed on my own aircraft except for the relatively new on the scene SDI. I fell into this 'trap as well as a new builder, even though I lived around aviation.

When I installed my new engine a few years ago I spec'd Bendix mags. I feel like I gained both reliability/repairability in the field, basically lost nothing in the process. Maybe I can't lean quite as far as I used to, saving maybe a gallon/hr, but these day I really don't care about a gal/hr, I'd rather go faster and not worry about all that other sh*t.

PS: I've had folks show up with a purchased airplane with EI/FI and had NO clue what was going on or system operation. One came in and was running only on the backup alternator because the primary had failed, he had no clue how close he was to things getting quite. Selling an airplane like this to an unsuspecting owner may have fatal consequences. I suspect even the builder didn't understand the system as many things were not done correctly.

Heck, we just had a recent thread of someone flying with a glass panel and then blamed the system when he tried to do aerobatics with the autopilot engaged!

I'll never forget this picture I took of a "modern" mixture control in an RV:

OK movin on, Let's be safe out there!

 

[Freemasm]

IIRC, didn't Ross state that typical power gains from EI tuning were 10->15%? Someone mentioned efficiency but the converse can also be taken advantage of.

 

[lr172]

Uhoh, here comes that old fart again with the voice of reason....

What exactly are the big advantages of a computer-controlled lead burning Lycoming engine system?
(Please don't say 'easier starting!)

Increased reliability?
More power?
Significant fuel savings?
Lighter?
Simpler? (doubt this with an electrically dependant engine).
Cheaper?

When I dumped the carb for a Bendix RSA, with tuned nozzles, I dropped almost 1 GPH at the old cruise speed. My electronic ignition, over fixed timed mags, definately adds 3-4 knots at cruise when well LOP (not much help at peak and no help ROP). My EI (now 1000 hours over 2 planes) has been much more reliable than a mag. In fairness, I have a set up that uses magnets in the flywheel, so no bearing issues that the pmags have.

Not saying it is worth the effort or $, but there is perfomance to be had with this approach over a carb and mags, as the OP has.

 

[TS Flightlines]

Dan---we use teflon and our mandrel bent 90*s on the 7/9s with duplex to connect to the EF20s at the valve. Pictured is Wes Croft's install---not completed in this pic, but you get the idea. We turn the EF20s for the wing ports aft---pointed towards the spar, then use our 90* hose ends to route the hoses down, then left/right throught the 'valve box" and spar brackets. WE has his hoses installed higher that we do----The upper hole in the sides of the valve box area is normally for the wiring harness, We use the next set of lower holes, and open them up to allow the nuts to pass through, similar to our 7T valve install----without the bent tubing.

WE use our 90* hose ends with a 1.00 drop. Some of you may ask, why didnt we use a bent rigid tube like we do on the 7T install? Well, we 'could', but such a limited amount of installs needing it, it was a matter of economics. The other minor issue was the drop. It has to be short, and to get it shorter would mean changing quite a bit of stuff for us. You 'can' get it to about .750, but you would have to use a wired on nut---and for that means a bunch of extra expense, not only for us, but the customer too. We use a certified nut, and getting them with a pre-drilled pin hole and machined groove to match the same groove in the flarehead is expensive.
So we came up with doing the 7/9s this way. Everything still fits under the STOCK covers--without modification.

Tom

 

[DanH]

So we came up with doing the 7/9s this way.

That's a nice install, and yep, way easier than tube bending in the home shop.

 

[rv6ejguy]

IIRC, didn't Ross state that typical power gains from EI tuning were 10->15%? Someone mentioned efficiency but the converse can also be taken advantage of.

We don't make claims like that...

 

[DanH]

IIRC, didn't Ross state that typical power gains from EI tuning were 10->15%? Someone mentioned efficiency but the converse can also be taken advantage of.

The other fellow (not Ross) has long claimed "10% more power". Arguably true in the limited case of swapping a carb and updraft sump (i.e. a restrictive venturi and a badly flowing air heater) for an EFI throttle body (no venturi) mounted on any decent horizontal manifold. However, compared to a comparable constant flow servo on the same manifold, there won't be much difference at WOT.

Re efficiency, field experience says the EFI will run more smoothly at very lean mixtures or at low flow levels, a function of high fixed rail pressure as compared to the low and variable pressure used in constant flow spider lines. There's an old Lycoming film out there showing the inside of the intake port during a 4 stroke cycle. The constant flow is pretty much a blob thrower at low flow levels, so more cycle-to-cycle variation can be expected.

 

[TS Flightlines]

Dan----the typical hand benders that most builders have cant get the flare close enough to the bend. Even using springs. Lest we forget that the nut has to slide around the bend and go over the sleeve and flare. The standard AN nut is too long to do that, so thats another reason for using the 'wired' on nut.
Again drives up the prices!

Tom

 

[DanH]

I get it, I just think it's important that builders understand what they are getting into with full electronic fuel injection/ignitions systems.

Thank you Walt. We're definitely on the same page here.

Folks, sharp builders don't find installing or tuning an EFI to be difficult. Many of the "I love my EFI" opinions are from those builders. No problem here, nor do I doubt Walt has a problem with a well considered, properly installed system.

However, note the difference in perspective between those individual craftsmen and someone like Walt. The really good installers don't need a Walt, or a Vic, or anyone else. Generally, their stuff works because they exercised craftsmanship and best practice. The shops, on the other hand, see a parade of problems, often with second and third owners who don't have a clue how to operate it, much less fix it.

The Walts of the world have seen the Dark Side, and it ain't all flowers and butterflies. Give it a little respect.

Dan----the typical hand benders that most builders have cant get the flare close enough to the bend....

Yeah, I know. I formed two yesterday. Trick is in the sequence, and being able to clock the fittings. That said, I'm positive your pre-bent hose ends are easier to install....and they eliminate one more of the craftsmanship issues I mentioned above.

 

[Freemasm]

We don't make claims like that...

The other fellow (not Ross) has long claimed "10% more power". Arguably true in the limited case of swapping a carb and updraft sump (i.e. a restrictive venturi and a badly flowing air heater) for an EFI throttle body (no venturi) mounted on any decent horizontal manifold. However, compared to a comparable constant flow servo on the same manifold, there won't be much difference at WOT.

Re efficiency, field experience says the EFI will run more smoothly at very lean mixtures or at low flow levels, a function of high fixed rail pressure as compared to the low and variable pressure used in constant flow spider lines. There's an old Lycoming film out there showing the inside of the intake port during a 4 stroke cycle. The constant flow is pretty much a blob thrower at low flow levels, so more cycle-to-cycle variation can be expected.

(1) Well understood. It's an extrapolation of "for same fuel flows..." the power argument has been stated by someone (not Ross).I didn't remember the source and (2) my apologies.

At least its a lively thread. Been a while. Walt is responding. Always good.

I don't believe anyone understood both edges of the technology sword than the guy quoted in the following links. His mindset about understanding the most finite of details was inspiring. If you've never read any of these, it's certainly worth a few minutes of your day and there's more than this short sample.

https://www.inspiringquotes.us/author/5594-hyman-rickover

https://www.azquotes.com/author/12340-Hyman_Rickover

Edit = link added

 

[CaptPausert]

Thanks for all the help guys. I wasn't really expecting this thread to blow up that much. I am still a ways out from ordering parts yet as I still have to build my wings. The reason I was asking is I may have an engine from an A&P friend soon and wanted to see if upgrading would be worth it. I am just starting to learn piston engines. Most of my experience is with turbines 11 years as an civil service engineer for the USAF on F100 and F110 turbines. The F100 and F110 still have backup mechanical fuel control but those engines are 40 years old and the early digital controls had some failures. The newer engines ditched the mechanical fuel controls entirely and the digital controls are almost bulletproof. BTW if you have never seen a mechanical fuel control for a military turbine engine Swiss clocks have nothing on those