Condition Inspection and Professional Help

[JonJay]

Since the birth of my 6 I have held the Repairmans Certificate and have done the first three years of CI's. I am lucky having a good number of RV friends and "part time" AP's on the field to give my machine a once over at annual time. However, this year I hired a professional full time AP/AI to go over the FFW with me.
Although we found no sqwacks or anything that would threaten my life, I learned a great deal of "little" things that a pro does that I had never seen or been taught. These items have now become part of my CI check list.

I believe there are many people out there like me. I have done my own maintenance for years, under supervision, learned a great deal and had the confidence to get my Repairmans Certificate to continue to maintain this machine. However, I am not a professional and having someone with years of experience, someone I trust, look at the machine with a new eye and teach me a couple new tricks was invaluable. Total cost = $200.
I would highly encourage others to do the same.

 

[Kyle Boatright]

I do something similar. I perform the entire inspection then pay my favorite IA to perform a second FWF inspection. He has never found any surprises, but I like having a second pair of eyes on everything.

 

[John Clark]

Terminology Alert!

Be very careful around here, it is Condition Inspection, there is nothing conditional about it.

I agree with the concept of "another set of eyes" and have a IA look at my work every year.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

 

[JonJay]

edited

Be very careful around here, it is Condition Inspection, there is nothing conditional about it.

I agree with the concept of "another set of eyes" and have a IA look at my work every year.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

fixed title

 

[JonJay]

Furthering my point. It is not just an inspection.

I should have been more clear. Another set of eyes is great. Working along side the person, sharing in the work, and doing the work with them is where you learn all of the little things. That is the point of the post.
I have always had a second set of qualified eyes on my FWF but you will learn a lot more if they participate in the work.

 

[Bob Axsom]

I think not

After 22 years of paying good money for shoddy work, one of the big reasons for building the RV-6A was to get the Repairman Certificate and do the work carefully and correctly. To each his own.

Bob Axsom

 

[JonJay]

Nothing new to learn?

After 22 years of paying good money for shoddy work, one of the big reasons for building the RV-6A was to get the Repairman Certificate and do the work carefully and correctly. To each his own.

Bob Axsom

I guess some might know it all already, but I for one have a lot to learn. If you dont trust someone, dont hire them. If you don't need or care to learn anything new, or dont think you can, this post wasn't for you.
This was a suggestion that might help those with similar experiences to mine. (as noted in my post). I was doing everything carefully and correctly, but you know what, I learned a few things that will make my experience better, and it makes me feel better about continuing on with my own maintenance program. If you dont need that, this has little value to you.

PS - You can get a Repairmans Certificate without knowing a thing about how to maintain an engine....

 

[John Clark]

Yup!

You can get a Repairmans Certificate without knowing a thing about how to maintain an engine....

Very good point!

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

 

[plehrke]

After 22 years of paying good money for shoddy work, one of the big reasons for building the RV-6A was to get the Repairman Certificate and do the work carefully and correctly. To each his own.

Bob Axsom

If you know it all why not just get your A&P and IA?

Experiemntal - Ameteur Built is defined as building an aircraft for educational purposes. There is always more to learn.

 

[Bob Axsom]

Excuse Me

If you know it all why not just get your A&P and IA?

Experiemntal - Ameteur Built is defined as building an aircraft for educational purposes. There is always more to learn.

Clearly you are not in agreement with my position on not calling on professional help to complete the annual condition inspection. OK I can live with that.

Bob Axsom

 

[DeltaRomeo]

I'm in the 'find an AP/IA' camp....

....and I admit I'm lucky. My good friend Randy (AP/IA) lives 200' from 52F and flies with me all the time, so I don't have to roll the dice on the quality of work angle - the same guy does the inspection every time, and I've verified this quality with 8 years of data points (and I ALWAYS learn something I didn't know).

I take all the panels and fiberglass off and he comes over with his stuff and starts inspecting. A few hours later he says, "Fix this, and this, and this and come get me." After he sees that I've done the work I'm cleared to button it up.

For me at least (average systems analyist corporate cube worm who knows nothing really about FWF), it is money very well spent.

Again, he always finds something (that I missed in my looksee before calling him over).

Cheap insurance IMHO.

 

[pierre smith]

Befriending an A@P/IA is a very valuable resource..

....that can be very beneficial for both of you. I have a friend, in Sandersville, Ga, 24 miles from me, who helps with my condition inspections....checks compression, mag timing and so on.

We worked together on my 430W install and got everything working. In exchange, I let him fly the -10 left seat and he will shortly be -10 qualified as well as -4, -8, -7, -9. A mutually beneficial arrangement sure simplifies things.

Best,

 

[N8RV]

I'm glad this subject came up. Like DR, I'm no FWF rocket scientist. Even something like checking compressions -- which I have done ONCE and will probably forget how to do by the time I need to do it again -- can be challenging.

Sometimes good suggestions get shot down pretty quickly here by those who believe that we, as builders, should be doing EVERYTHING -- panel wiring, upholstery, paint, etc. -- or we're just hacks for hiring out some things.

When it comes to ongoing maintenance, it only seems prudent that *most* of us would benefit from having another set of eyes occasionally looking at our planes. Those who are lucky enough to have mechanics or experienced, knowledgeable fellow builders hanging around have it made. Others (like me) who aren't so fortunate, would be well-advised to employ the services of a professional to help out on occasion. There should be no shame or stigma in that, IMO. Like Harry Callahan said, "A man's gotta know his limitations ..."

When it comes to safety, we ALL should know our limitations.

 

[Ironflight]

I never let the opportunity for another trained set of eyes and hands go over my airplane, and I will do the same for others. I do my own Condition Inspections because I have a fair number of decades experience working on both engines and airframes (although I never earned an A&P), but I am well aware that familiarity breeds contempt, and getting a fresh view can be important.

Paul

 

[Mel]

When it comes to ongoing maintenance, it only seems prudent that *most* of us would benefit from having another set of eyes occasionally looking at our planes. Those who are lucky enough to have mechanics or experienced, knowledgeable fellow builders hanging around have it made. Others (like me) who aren't so fortunate, would be well-advised to employ the services of a professional to help out on occasion. There should be no shame or stigma in that, IMO. Like Harry Callahan said, "A man's gotta know his limitations ..."

The only thing I would change within this statement would be to change the word *most* to *every one*.
Regardless of your experience, you can still overlook something. Especially on your own aircraft that you are so close too. Another set of eyes is NEVER a bad thing.

 

[mv031161]

Becareful what you wish for

speaking strictly from experience.

if you use an A&P or an A&P with IA privileges, be aware that it might no be your best move if that person does not have the required expereince in experimental aircraft nor has he worked and signed the airworthines release on one before.

To explain this in detail it will take hours. However, to make my point across in a timely manner, the A&P or A&P/IA without experience in Experimental aircraft will not differentiate from a certified unit and this can be costly to some if you are not aware under what regulations your aircraft is built under.

All A&P's regardless of the type of aircraft certification will inspect the aircraft with the same eyes and intensity. the criteria used will be different since a certified aircraft is cut and dry, with manufacturers maintenance manuals and procedures in place. If data is not available, AC43-13 will have to be used for that criteria. On an experimental aircraft, it will be good to follow the same criteria of AC43-13, however, you dont have to....it is amateur built!

here is where the big problem comes. An A&P that does not differentiate between the two will apply AC43-13 criteria to your aircraft and ground it completelly without you having any recourse. Thats the power issued by the FAA for the certified repairman to act on behalf of the FAA to halt you. It will be up to you to either hire him to fix the findings or find another set of trained eyes to dispute the squawks the previous A&P found. For a different A&P to come and clear the squawks it might becomes an issue as well because now it becomes a liability since there are records in place. However if the second A&P understands the difference between the two certifications and the squawks are acceptable under the cirteria that it is applied, then a release can be issued.

Here is the one item I have not been able to get a stright answer from anyone at the local FSDO. If and A&P grounds the aircraft, can the builder with his owner/repairman certificate override the A&P?

If I were you before using the services of and A&P, aske the question if he understands the difference between a certified aircraft and an experimental when performing the annual condition inspection and the criteria to be used.

last piece of advise....No A&P - A&P/IA can deny you from receiving your condition inspection inspections log book entry. he is obligated to give it to you by Federal regulations. If he feels the aircraft is unairworthy, he will make the statement saying he has completed the required condition report except......... and list the items that are unaiwrthy. For the next person (A&P)to issue you your airworthiness, all he has to do is complete those items listed as unairworthy and will not be required to do another full inspection.


hope this helps

 

[JonJay]

Do your own inspection, with help....

I know most agree another set of eyes is important. The point I was trying to make, and might be getting lost, is that doing your own inspection with assistance is where the real value to learn is. If you simply open things up and turn your guy loose to review things, great, that second set of eyes might catch something. However, if you work along side actually doing the work with the pro, you might be surprised by the little things you learn.
Some of what I learned was specific to my guy, perhaps just differing technique, but it was valuable to me.

As an example, did you know a small drop of oil on the top of the spark plug lead B-nut (where the plug wire and B-nut meet) might prevent galling and a cracked B-nut? I didn't. (very tiny drop, you dont want oil on the B-nut threads). Simple little thing that might, just might, prevent a pain in the butt problem down the road.

Have you ever heard of "pinning"? I hadn't. One of my cylinders did not come up on compression. The engine ran fine that morning so we assumed a piece of carbon lodged under the exhaust valve (you could hear the air escaping through the exhaust pipe.) "Let's pin it". Huh?
Valve cover comes off, pressurize the cylinder with air, take a wooden dowel and whack the rocker with a hammer. A couple sharp whacks and you could hear the valve clear. Cylinder came up perfectly. This little act saved us from having to put things together, run up the engine, and then check the cylinder again. Not a big deal but saved us time.

When I got my PIC my CFI told me "you have a license to learn". When I got my Repairmans Certificate I felt the same way. What a great hobby to engage the mind.

 

[mv031161]

nicely put Jonjay...glad you are having fun and you use someone who understands the difference and willing to teach you....

Unfortunatelly, lots of owners here that purchased the aircraft built and use A&P's for their condition inspections. BTW...lots of iddling A&P's around thanks to the economy. Lots looking for extra work to do...in the case of my friend, the A&P he used, was looking for that extra work ($$$$) and grounding his aircraft unnecesary!!!!! Glad to be of help there JR (you know who you are)

 

[Brian Vickers]

Don't forget the cost of your time

Jon,
Great post? I looked at your opening thread statement and credit you with a monetary and personal time gain. I have read posts indicating that some RV owners often spend a whole week to annual their airplane by themselves. Many of us are still employed so taking time from business for the inspection can translate into a loss of income. Plus, time away from family and other personal interests. My motivation to hire professional assistance goes beyond safety... if I'm going to take a week off from business in the winter I'd rather go skiing. Completing your inspection in one day for $200 is a personal and financial pay day!!! What a bargain -- Delegate!!!

 

[Ironflight]

Here is the one item I have not been able to get a stright answer from anyone at the local FSDO. If and A&P grounds the aircraft, can the builder with his owner/repairman certificate override the A&P?

Mitch,

I agree that getting someone involved who knows nothing about Experimental Aircraft and the rules governing them can be a pain, but I don't believe that an A&P can ground your Experimental unless you agree to it. Certainly he could alert the FSDO who might send an inspector who (with the ultimate power of the FAA to do whatever they chose) could issue some sort of order - but a local A&P has no authority other than what you give him.

IA's have absolutely no more authority when it comes to homebuilts than anyone else - their job is to assure that Type Certificated aircraft conform to their Type Certificates - and since Experimentals don't have a TC, they simply don't apply.

The bottom line is that if you bring your Experimental to an A&P and/or and IA for the annual Condition Inspection, and they don't agree that it is in "a condition for safe operation", then they simply don't sign anything, and if the the last such signed statement in the logs is more than 12 months old, the airplane is not legal. You can take it elsewhere for repairs or a re-inspection at your discretion.

At least that is how I understand it, and have seen it practiced. If an A&P/IA is holding an Experimental hostage, I believe they are exceeding their authority.

Paul

 

[JonJay]

Actually, I am still working on it...

Jon,
Great post? I looked at your opening thread statement and credit you with a monetary and personal time gain. I have read posts indicating that some RV owners often spend a whole week to annual their airplane by themselves. Many of us are still employed so taking time from business for the inspection can translate into a loss of income. Plus, time away from family and other personal interests. My motivation to hire professional assistance goes beyond safety... if I'm going to take a week off from business in the winter I'd rather go skiing. Completing your inspection in one day for $200 is a personal and financial pay day!!! What a bargain -- Delegate!!!

The FWF took a couple hours, but the rest of the airplane took time and I am still not quite done. The $200 was still a great value though and the FWF stuff is where the complexity is, at least for me, and I know engines pretty well.
I understand the time/value proposition. I enjoy the time spent on the airplane and nobody knows it better than I. So, I choose to do the bulk of the work myself. Sometimes I feel like I should be paying someone for the pleasure of doing it. Now that is sick!
I also somewhat agree with Bob. You better trust who is doing the work as it is really easy to pay someone for shoddy work. I know my work, I just felt it was time to get a little help as a check down to make sure I am on the right track. I probably wouldnt do it every year, but I dont know. It was such a positive experience I just might.

 

[mv031161]

Mitch,

I agree that getting someone involved who knows nothing about Experimental Aircraft and the rules governing them can be a pain, but I don't believe that an A&P can ground your Experimental unless you agree to it. Certainly he could alert the FSDO who might send an inspector who (with the ultimate power of the FAA to do whatever they chose) could issue some sort of order - but a local A&P has no authority other than what you give him.

IA's have absolutely no more authority when it comes to homebuilts than anyone else - their job is to assure that Type Certificated aircraft conform to their Type Certificates - and since Experimentals don't have a TC, they simply don't apply.

The bottom line is that if you bring your Experimental to an A&P and/or and IA for the annual Condition Inspection, and they don't agree that it is in "a condition for safe operation", then they simply don't sign anything, and if the the last such signed statement in the logs is more than 12 months old, the airplane is not legal. You can take it elsewhere for repairs or a re-inspection at your discretion.

At least that is how I understand it, and have seen it practiced. If an A&P/IA is holding an Experimental hostage, I believe they are exceeding their authority.

Paul

Hey Paul....in the experimental world there is no difference between an A&P and an IA. in the certificated world there is......

I am an A&P since 1983 and used to hold my IA until 1993 when I decided to make a living doing something else. I used to work out of my tool box in both an airline and at GA airports in the South East. When the liability was removed from the repair station and was put into the technician shoulders, it became for me impossible to maintain the deisred liability insurance. Since I wont work without coverage, I decided to move on into greener pastures and thank God it has worked well.

Now days I just work on my own aircraft (certificated) and on some very close friends aircraft as well (both Certificated and Experimental).

Yes. If you let an A&P touch your aircraft, yes he can ground your aircraft. Thats the authority given to the A&P by the administrator under the FAR's. He doe represent the FAA administrator. He is the one authorized to return to service and is his obligation to make the necessary entires in the log book to reflect that. What you do with your aircraft after that, it is your problem and no longer his. He done his job. You dont have to agree with it at all. That's why he signs the inspection as completed with the excemption of #1, #2, #3,,etc........still grounded until someone fixes what he found unairworthy either by the magic of a pen or by his technical abilities.

If you ask a mechanic not to sign your log books because you refused to let him write it is unariworthy after he is done with the inspection, I guarantee you that you will get a call/visit from the FSDO.

Your very last statement is 100% absolutelly true and therefore the original reason of my posting. It sucks and it is happening a lot more often!

That's the beauty of the experimental world. However, in the spirit of the original intend of this tread, I still reccomend you do a few inspections once in a while with an A&P who does understand the experimental world. Accidents and/or incidents will happen if you get complacent. If you hire someone different who only works in certificated aircraft like I see all the time, you are in for a bad ownership experience.

 

[Hawkeye7A]

Get a good one!

In my neck of the woods there is a community college with an aviation program; both flight and Aviation Maintenance Technician(AMT). There have been some students who have come out of that school who were passed who were very substandard but were passed simply because they made their tuition payments, and it takes an act of God to wash them out. I've met several who have their A&P certificates that I wouldn't let change a fuse on my aircraft! Sorry state of affairs, but that's the beauracracy we live in. Be sure you've got a good one. And, I whole heartedly agree with multiple sets of eyes!

 

[mv031161]

In my neck of the woods there is a community college with an aviation program; both flight and Aviation Maintenance Technician(AMT). There have been some students who have come out of that school who were passed who were very substandard but were passed simply because they made their tuition payments, and it takes an act of God to wash them out. I've met several who have their A&P certificates that I wouldn't let change a fuse on my aircraft! Sorry state of affairs, but that's the beauracracy we live in. Be sure you've got a good one. And, I whole heartedly agree with multiple sets of eyes!

Sorry state of affairs indeed and thats the fault of the 1930's designed A&P course...! it is based in how many hours you attend school, they rush throught the subjects and only prepare you to take the computarized test. it has gone downhill gradually for the last 20 years!!! (Ever seen the King videos? that's as good as it gets for FAA Required training ==== SCARY!!!!)