Comments on my panel design

[shiney]

I?d like your comments on my panel design before I order it pre-cut from affordable.

My 7 is VFR (because that?s all the CAA will allow us to fly here in UK/Europe) but I?m building in some IMC contingency for safety as many of my trips will be down to the Alps and the weather there can change in an instance.

My panel consists of the following;

Dual Horizon GRT (could be MGM Voyager but I?m still thinking that over)
Trio AP
Trio ALT Hold
Transponder GTX330
Comm; Garmin SL30
AvMap
AOA Pro
PS Engineering PM3000

Also on the panel is the following UK Mandatory Equipment;

Altimeter
ASI
Card Compass
Turn Bank

I have put Mag 1 (Slick) and Mag 2 (Pmag) on switches directly in front of the pilot and to the left of the GRT (again, UK mandatory is for one slick)

I have put the fuel pump switch next to the throttle.

The trim controls (aileron and elevator) are on the stick and I can put the flaps on here as well but I?m undecided on that one. I have put flap switch on the panel just below the mags switches and if I do put the flaps on the stick, I think I?ll also keep a switch on the panel.

Switches are on a switch panel.

I am thinking about putting the 12v aux supply somewhere other than on the panel, perhaps between pilot and co pilot seating.

Any comments, observations, ideas or suggestions would be appreciated.

Martin


http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/2309/mohpanelvaffk0.gif

 

[jmartinez443]

Also on the panel is the following UK Mandatory Equipment;

Altimeter
ASI
Card Compass
Turn Bank


http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/2309/mohpanelvaffk0.gif

The GRT will display ASI, Altimeter, and Turn and Bank. Will that not satisfy the UK rules?

Nice panel by the way - very smartly laid out. I do have a couple of comments:

1. I've always been weary of flaps on the stick lest you deploy the flaps accidentally at high speed.
2. The card compass looks awfully close to potential sources of electromagnetic interference

 

[shiney]

I know, its crazy isn't it but no, it won't satisfy them!

 

[dan]

Reconsider the location of the flap switch. I'd put that right next to the throttle, and move the boost pump switch elsewhere. Consider the go-around scenario, where you need to raise the flaps. You'll need 3 hands given your current layout.

 

[kentb]

I agree with Dan.

Reconsider the location of the flap switch. I'd put that right next to the throttle, and move the boost pump switch elsewhere. Consider the go-around scenario, where you need to raise the flaps. You'll need 3 hands given your current layout.

You can move the fuel switch up beside the SL30. Then you will be able to operate both without leaving the throttle knob.

Just personal preference, but I think that I would move the AOA up above the AP. You may need to move the AP down a little. This is were I ended up moving mine, because I think that it is closer to my central view picture while in landing mode. By the way I could quite fit it in from behind because of the structure behind the panel, so I bought the back cover for the AOA and mounted it on the front side of the panel. It does stick out about 1 inch from the surface of the panel, but look just fine while flying the plane.
The co-pilot will be able to see the AOA better from that position also.

Kent

 

[hevansrv7a]

Some things to consider

I like it, so the below is just hopefully helpful hints...

• You may find navigating easier if the AvMap is below the GRT; the steam dials can be in the center. VFR how likely are you to ever use them? I think AvMap can rotate 90 degrees which is less optimal for seeing ahead, but centered is better for easy flying, especially when conditions are marginal.
  
• AOA is EXACTLY where it should be.
• I think you are right to put the GRT or any EFIS dead center in front of your nose. That said, if it's a tipup you will have to relocate the aft portion of the left rib that supports the panel. That's been done by quite a few builder, myself included.
  
• I agree with Dan about the flaps. My flap switch is useable with the hand on the throttle. That is where it needs to be on a go-around, even VFR.
  
• I agree about the fuel pump switch, too. BTW, I agree about the indicator light. I put one in because I was always leaving it on and wasting tons of avgas.
  
• Consider if the autopilot could be a safety feature for a non-pilot passenger if it were easier to reach from the right side.
• Where is the ELT control? Useable to both seats is best IMHO.
• I am only 5'11" but I have the seat-back bottom mounted in the forward-most location. Consequently, I have issues with my right knee and the drop-down that holds throttle/mixture/alt-air. If I had it to do over, I'd make it as compact as possible.
• That looks like a tipup panel; do you have room at that location to put a hole in the forward sub-panel for the radio? I had issues with the hat section that supports the release mechanism. If I had it do do again, I'd install clevis bolts and ditch that entire release arrangement. That would give you more freedom to locate the radio.
• If using dual GRT, consider mounting the EIS somewhere out of the way, including the big red light near the primary EFIS. The EIS can be on during startup but the EFIS won't do that. Thus EIS gives you instant monitoring of, for example, oil pressure, fuel pressure, rpm's, fuel levels, etc. You have room where the card compass is. You need it for processing engine monitoring data, so it's only a choice to make it visible or not.

Overall, nice job. Enjoy!

 

[kentb]

Huh...???

[*]I agree about the fuel pump switch, too. BTW, I agree about the indicator light. I put one in because I was always leaving it on and wasting tons of avgas.

I have this problem too and plan to put in a led to remind me about turning it off. How is it leaving it on will waste avgas? The engine pump creates about the same amount of pressure and the gas will go through the engine and burn up (make power). Or am I missing something here and wasting gas?

Kent

 

[w1curtis]

I don't know what the Trio AP + the Trio Alt Hld + the Turn coordinator goes for, but I just tested out my TruTrak ADI this weekend on a non EFIS "steam gauge" aircraft, and man was it impressive. I flew it "under the hood" for standard turns, steep turns, slow flight, and approaches and it was just as easy (if not better due to the airspeed and turn indications) than a standard AI. If the ADI can satisfy the CAA as Turn Coordinator, then you could replace those three (four if you count the heading indicator) items above with the ADI pilot II. Just a thought.

 

[mgomez]

Curious

I'm curious...why are the ignition and fuel pump switches in front of you, while all the other switches are in front of your passenger? The ignition, in particular, is cycled once per flight.

BTW, do you happen to have a link to the CAA regulations online? It's so vastly different than the rules we fly by in the US that it might make interesting reading when I have nothing to do on my RV (hah!)

Cheers,
Martin

 

[AlexPeterson]

Martin, kudos to you for soliciting input - that can take some fortitude on this list!

I totally agree with the fuel pump and flap switch comments - I have my flap switch exactly where you have the pump switch, and it is perfect for go arounds or takeoffs using flaps. These things rapidly accelerate above flap speed, and you will be thumbing up the flaps almost immediately on takeoff.

I put the pump switch next to the mixture, since on climbout, I turn the pump off at around 1000', followed right away with leaning (I first reduce throttle, then rpm, then pump and then mixture).

Think about the sequence of things that happen during various phases - that should largely drive where things are located. My preflight check is a physical movement around the panel, with no backtracking.

Did you intend the mixture and prop sequenced the way they are shown? You really should go with the standard configuration, which puts the prop next to the throttle.

Looks good!

 

[shiney]

Thanks very much for all your replies, here are some comments;

I will relocate the flap switch, it makes sense for go-rounds but I'd rather leave the fuel pump switch where it is, any suggestions as to where else is best?

I haven't included an ELT, its not something that's done over here becuase we don't have huge wide open areas, would you suggest I include one?

Do those that fly dual Horizons display the EIS on the panel or do they hide it behind the panel, what's the norm?

I like the AvMap in the potrait position becuase I like to see more of what's ahead of me rather than what's to either side.

I'm going to use clevis bolts and not the standard release system, so that will free up some room.

I'm happy with the position of the AOA

The Trio items are already purchased, I'm happy with the choice.

I'm 6"1, would go or not go with the control sub panel ?


Martin

 

[alpinelakespilot2000]

I will relocate the flap switch, it makes sense for go-rounds but I'd rather leave the fuel pump switch where it is, any suggestions as to where else is best?

I believe that Cessna has put their flap switch just to the right of the mixture since at least 1964 and it's in that location on recent models as well, I'm pretty sure. They spend a lot of money on human factors, so it's probably not there accidently. In fact, the Cessna's and Piper's of this world are often a good source for panel ideas (at least if you look at their later models).

Also, one other suggestion... I am very much an advocate of having your carb heat in such a location that you can push it in at the same time and with the same hand used for pushing in your throttle. Consequently, I would second the suggestion to place your power controls in a traditional order... left to right: carb heat, throttle, prop, mixture, etc.

Otherwise I like the relatively uncluttered look and clean lines of your panel.

Good luck.

 

[Jekyll]

w1curtis has a good point about the ADI pilot, if the T&B is required, TruTrak also has the Pictorial Pilot which is the T&B with the wing leveler, then just need to add a Altrak (altitude hold). You said you already have your Trio but, there's always ebay

I have the AoA Sport which has 2 buttons that need to be on the panel, 1 is a PTT and the other is a dimmer button. I don't know if the Pro has these but you might want to check. The TruTrak ADI and Pictorial Pilot can come with an optional back up battery that includes a spiffy switch with a lighted tip to indicate when it's on battery power. It's a good way to maintain an attitude source in total electrical failure without wiring up a dedicated battery for the GRT.

Dan's right on about the flap switch by the throttle. It's a safety thing, think ergonomics. Some people like to have their switches mounted in a left to right progression as things are needed, just food for thought. I personally want all my engine switches in one place, mags, boost pump and even my master close by. In extremis, I just need to look at one section of the panel and make sure all the "stay-in-the-air" switches are pointing up. Looking across the panel in various locations in extremis is not a good idea IMO.

I believe the P-mag requires 2 switches, download the Emagair installation document and carefully plan out your full wiring schematic before cutting to ensure you have all the necessary switches planned. I have 2 switches for my P-mag. I didn't heed my own advice (actually solidified it as a result of mistakes) with my panel. Luckily, Fabian had to redo my panel because of a bad sheet of aluminum so he sent the flawed one to me as a test article. I ended up making several minor changes for the final cut but, even then, I had to make several additions later on.

If it's a VFR bird you might consider using 1 GRT. With a large screen GPS and an EIS on the panel, you will always have an ADI, map and engine instruments up on the panel. It will save you $3,000 or so. 2 screens are purdy and give a nice balance but, $3K can buy a lot of petrol.

Consider a switch to select A/P source from either the GPS direct or through the GRT. Gives an alternate source in case of GRT failure.

The EIS comes with a warning light. If you remote locate the EIS, you will want the indicator light on the panel. Might still want it even with a panel mounted EIS. It acts as a low oil pressure light on start and as a glaring reminder to turn off the battery when closing up shop.

Panel planning is both fun and stressful at once. Wait until you get that gem in your hands. It'll be like Christmas.

Jekyll

 

[dan]

You could also just leave the fuel pump switch as-is and move the flap switch to the stick. I have my flap switch on my stick and I love it there.

 

[hevansrv7a]

Cannot explain it, just see it

I have this problem too and plan to put in a led to remind me about turning it off. How is it leaving it on will waste avgas? The engine pump creates about the same amount of pressure and the gas will go through the engine and burn up (make power). Or am I missing something here and wasting gas?

Kent

Kent, I cannot explain it, but on my airplane, even after having the factory rebuild the FI TB, with the pump on, the fuel flow (full throttle, full rich) is several gallons per hour higher. While this could be an instrument error, I don't think so. I am basing this observation on my GR EIS with fuel flow option. I use "target EGT" - see GAMI - after climb is established and pump off.

 

[hevansrv7a]

I believe that Cessna has put their flap switch just to the right of the mixture since at least 1964 and it's in that location on recent models as well, I'm pretty sure. They spend a lot of money on human factors, so it's probably not there accidently. ..

With all deference to Cessna and Piper, I prefer my flap switch where I can reach it and use it with my right thumb while hand firmly on throttle. Nearby is good, "heel and toe" is better IMHO.

On a related subject, the one-GRT screen is an excellent suggestion, wish I'd thought of it. The new high resolution screen by GRT allows you to easily display all the engine stuff across the bottom and the flight stuff on top, split or non-split. With that, the second screen would be just for backup or the passenger.

 

[Ironflight]

Kent, I cannot explain it, but on my airplane, even after having the factory rebuild the FI TB, with the pump on, the fuel flow (full throttle, full rich) is several gallons per hour higher. While this could be an instrument error, I don't think so. I am basing this observation on my GR EIS with fuel flow option. I use "target EGT" - see GAMI - after climb is established and pump off.

I also see about a 1.0-1.5 increase in fuel flow indicated when I have my pump on....but it's a false indication - the engine isn't burning any more gas, the sensor is being fooled by the pulses from the fuel pump. I have confirmed this by checking how much I put in a the pump....if you're actually seeing a greater fuel BURN with the pump on, man...I don't know what would cause that!

Paul

 

[alpinelakespilot2000]

With all deference to Cessna and Piper, I prefer my flap switch where I can reach it and use it with my right thumb while hand firmly on throttle. Nearby is good, "heel and toe" is better IMHO.

I don't really have anything at stake in Martin's panel, so I'm just musing some more...

IMHO worrying about having flaps at immediate access in any RV is relatively unimportant compared to having them handy in an under-powered Cessna or Piper. As far as I know, all RV's can climb at very respectable climb rates even with flaps fully extended. Thus, in an emergency situation where power is needed, I'd prefer to keep the things I have to worry about down to full throttle and carb heat off, and then worry about things like flaps after the immediate crisis has passed (e.g. positive climb rate established). At that point, moving my hand two inches to the right to actuate the flaps is no big deal. I always found that extremely intuitive in the C182.

Having said that, I agree that both the flaps and the boost pump need to be relatively close to the throttle or on the stick. I just have never found the position above and to the left of the throttle (for the flaps) to be comfortable for my thumb (or any other finger) especially on a toggle switch with no paddle. The boost pump there, however, is doable since it's just a one-time flip. I guess I just have an uncoordinated thumb!

Again, just my .02.

 

[kentb]

Problems can come up more then one at a time.

IMHO worrying about having flaps at immediate access in any RV is relatively unimportant compared to having them handy in an under-powered Cessna or Piper. As far as I know, all RV's can climb at very respectable climb rates even with flaps fully extended. Thus, in an emergency situation where power is needed, I'd prefer to keep the things I have to worry about down to full throttle and carb heat off, and then worry about things like flaps after the immediate crisis has passed (e.g. positive climb rate established). At that point, moving my hand two inches to the right to actuate the flaps is no big deal. I always found that extremely intuitive in the C182.
Again, just my .02.

I know this might be stretching it a bit, but what if you needed to do a go-a-round and could get full power. Getting the flaps up quick might be important and maybe the lack of power was because of lack of fuel (fuel pump switch). If you are making an effort to save the plane (and your self), you don't have enough runway to land and need to do a go-a-round, I want my right hand doing everything possible to make power and my left keeping my plane from hitting anything.

Kent

 

[alpinelakespilot2000]

I know this might be stretching it a bit, but what if you needed to do a go-a-round and could get full power. Getting the flaps up quick might be important and maybe the lack of power was because of lack of fuel (fuel pump switch). If you are making an effort to save the plane (and your self), you don't have enough runway to land and need to do a go-a-round, I want my right hand doing everything possible to make power and my left keeping my plane from hitting anything.

Kent

No real argument with you here, Kent, because I agree with you that the flap switch should be very accessible, when flaps are really needed. I have, however, been having a lot of fun wrestling with where everything is at on my panel over the last few months, so here's a couple more thoughts:

1. Are there very many reasonable scenarios for an RV in which it is absolutely critical that flaps get retracted immediately? Again, I would make the relative comparison between a Cessna and an RV. If I were in a Cessna 150 on a hot day I would be concerned about having the flaps up as soon as possible. Even then, however, one of the first lessons my instructor showed me is that even a 150 can climb without flaps. It's not pretty, but it does. From everyone I've ever talked to, any RV can climb more than adequately in a go-around scenario, even with full flaps. In fact, Gus at Van's demonstrated this to me when I demo'd the -9. A Glastar that took off ahead of us forced us to slow down immediately after liftoff. Gus left the flaps on full, and said "watch this." He then reduced the power and increased the pitch attitude. I didn't look at the VSI, but we were way above the Glastar before we even got to the end of the runway.

Of course, if your RV is only generating partial power because something is wrong, I would agree that getting the flaps up a little sooner would be helpful. But even then, how much faster would you get the flaps up by having the switch just above the throttle as opposed to a couple inches to the right? In both cases, the throttle is going to get pushed in before any real flap movement occurs. It's a matter of maybe a half second at best.

2. The Cessna flap switch location, just to the right of the mixture, is all the more interesting precisely because it doesn't have the excess power that an RV does. Why would Cessna have chosen that location? It doesn't seem logical. It seems like they should have put it right above the throttle where it could be activated without taking one's hand off the throttle. On the contrary, however, Cessna's decision may be very logical indeed. A colleague of mine, a human factors psychologist who specializes in aviation, speculated that it is precisely because Cesnna deemed it was BETTER to have the flap switch someplace where it could not be accidently hit or messed with when the pilot's first priority was to manage the power setting. The idea being that an inadvertant or improper flap actuation (due to the flap switch being too close to some other switch or throttle) during go-around could cause the airplane to experience an unanticipated sink or pitch change that would be more dangerous than the drag created by having the flaps down. Having the flap switch slightly away from the throttle ensures that the power change happens first. Only once the power and attitude are established should the flaps be actuated. Prior to that, the flaps are only a distraction. I don't know whether or not my human factors friend was correct or not, but it makes sense.

I would argue that similar logic applies to having the flap switch and boost pump right next to each other above the throttle. It seems logical that they would be located adjacent to each other, given that you use both in a go-around situation. However, in an emergency situation, when I might be distracted with what I see out the windscreen, I don't want to have two switches close together that I could easily confuse. I still have them with easy reach of my right hand, but they are not co-located.

Again, I don't know where the "best" place to put the flap (or any other) switch is--it may very well be different for different people--but I do enjoy thinking about the pros and cons of different locations. I would probably agree with you that it's not way over on the left side of the panel!

 

[Stephen Lindberg]

Flap switch location

Here is what I am going to do. I am going to put the (only) flap switch above and to the right of the mixture, just like the rest of modern general aviation. Anybody trained since the Pleistocene Era will know where to find the flap switch. I plan to make a little airfoil shaped handle to fit over the switch, ala Cessna, so when I reach for the flaps I will have tactile confirmation. A flap switch on the stick might be nifty but it violates the "simplicate and add lightness" rule of John Thorp. (Think: weight, cost, space, additional failure points, future maintenance, non-standard location) I agree with Steve Moore, there aren't many plausible scenarios where rapid raising of the flaps on an RV is critical. Another story: A fellow I know landed his elderly Bonanza and raised the flaps on rollout. Unfortunately, his Cessna habit patterns overrode his conscious brain and he instead raised the gear, to the tune of $30K. The landing gear and flap switch locations are reversed on Cessnas and old Bonanzas. Beech finally, over thirty years ago, changed to the standard (Cessna) flap and gear switch locations. Even though we are allowed to be as idiosyncratic as we like, I am going to try to make my panel layout as conforming to industry standards as I can, both for me and other pilots.