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Canadian IFR equipment requirements

P

petersb

Well Known Member
We need two methods of navigating, GPS and VOR.

Can this be included in one device ie: Garmin 430W and can the outputs be displayed on the same EFIS screen.

Because both devices are in the same box you could lose both GPS and VOR together, or if the EFIS display unit failed you would lose both nav outputs. I believe the 430 has a CFI and GPS display built in that could back up a display unit failure.

Of course a solution would be to have a 430 and and SL30 with its own head.

Anyway I am interested to know what the minimum that Transport Canada would accept
 
IFR REQUIREMENT IN CANADA

Hi Peter

As far as I know you do require two independent Nav system..IE: a 430 and an SL-30 ..a combined unit like a 430 alone won't do it..

It doesn't have to be a GPS and or a VOR...It could be a VOR and ADF if you like...

I'm going to get my RV-4 IFR certified in the spring so I will find out then...I have right now a SL-30 & a KLN-90B IFR GPS + a 796 as back up..

YMMV

Bruno
 
CAR 605.18 (j)

"(j) sufficient radio navigation equipment to permit the pilot, in the event of the failure at any stage of the flight of any item of that equipment, including any associated flight instrument display,

(i) to proceed to the destination aerodrome or proceed to another aerodrome that is suitable for landing, and

(ii) where the aircraft is operated in IMC, to complete an instrument approach and, if necessary, conduct a missed approach procedure."

Which ends up meaning you need 2 completely independent systems. A single unit like the 430W won't do, because you have a single point of failure. I suspect 2 completely independent GPS's may not work either, on account that if the signal is the problem, you have a failure of the "system", though that would be asking a lot ... It's a rule that will eventually make less and less sense as other non GPSS navaids die off.

For now, a 430W or similar + an SL-30 or similar will do the trick.

You could inquire as to whether 2 entirely separate GPS's (i.e. 2 430W's for example) would make you compliant.
 
RV-4 said:
Hi Peter

As far as I know you do require two independent Nav system..IE: a 430 and an SL-30 ..a combined unit like a 430 alone won't do it..

It doesn't have to be a GPS and or a VOR...It could be a VOR and ADF if you like...

I'm going to get my RV-4 IFR certified in the spring so I will find out then...I have right now a SL-30 & a KLN-90B IFR GPS + a 796 as back up..

YMMV

Bruno
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Bruno

Yes the crazy thing is I could put in a WW2 ADF and VOR and be legal but not my Garmin 495, which is WAAS, and many times superior. Even my ipad running FlightPlanGo is superior, but not legal.

Using the 495 and Synthetic Approach on the HXr takes you down to FAF as if on rails.

My current panel has GRT HXr, Dynon D10A and Garmin 495.

The smart move would be a 430 and SL30 but with the Canadian Dollar tanking the already high price $US6000, for a fourth generation old 430W, is getting rather high.
 
petersb said:
.... but with the Canadian Dollar tanking.....
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Back when I built my -8, the dollar was around $0.63 US. Now that I am building a 4 seat Bearhawk, guess where the dollar is headed :eek:

Is there a cause and effect thing happening here? Maybe I should just stop building airplanes and that will save the Canadian economy :D
 
rv8bldr said:
Back when I built my -8, the dollar was around $0.63 US. Now that I am building a 4 seat Bearhawk, guess where the dollar is headed :eek:

Is there a cause and effect thing happening here? Maybe I should just stop building airplanes and that will save the Canadian economy :D
Click to expand...

Yes, know what you mean. My 6 was built with an.62 cent dollar. Thought I scored when dollar was on a par when I built my 7A
 
cyclecyclecyclecyclecycle.....etc.

well, do we learn anything from this....... par-----tank-----par----tank thing?
well, I'm telling my wife, whenever it's near par, I HAVE to order a pickled I0-360, MT prop and an RV-14 kit.
It's just the responsible, Canajun thing to do eh?!
 
Yes, Does the surfer wait for the big wave to pass before standing up on his/her board?

Bevan
 
Stupid dollar, my RV-14 just became an RV-9 because of it ... not too big a deal, for my means, the 9 is the more responsible choice, but still ... darn ...

And I want to start building sooner than later, and who knows when it'll come back up ...

At least the tail is the most affordable kit ...
 
JF - you've seen our Glasair Sportsman project. It was bought mostly with a 70 cent dollar. I grumbled quite a bit about the bucks I could have saved by waiting for a dollar at par, but then I wouldn't have had nearly as much of the build completed had I delayed the start hoping for a better exchange rate. Sometimes we just have to take our lumps. I'm really glad a bunch of the avionics came in at, or near par. Gotta be thankful for the small things that do go in our favour.

Coming back to the original poster's question, yes, a pair of G430W's, or a 430W and a 430 would meet the requirement, as would a mix of 530, 430, 480 as long as you've got one WAAS navigator. The intent of the regulation is to ensure that we have diversity in nav signal sources and receivers as well as indicators so we don't get stuck in the soup without navigation capability as a result of a single point of failure.
 
I am not a high time IFR pilot, only four years. I came to the IFR game late in life and I am going to be a bit brutal here. If you want to fly IFR with minimal equipment then you do not have the right mind set for the realities of IMC conditions.
Go get some flight training in real clouds with an instructor. My guess is that you will then want as much equipment as you put under the hood!
 
kamikaze said:
Stupid dollar, my RV-14 just became an RV-9 because of it ... not too big a deal, for my means, the 9 is the more responsible choice, but still ... darn ...
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Really? Judging by the prices on Vans' site today, the -7 would be even more economical, by about $500. By the time you need your engine, we'll be at par again, and you won't have given up the aerobatic capability.

At least the tail is the most affordable kit ...
Click to expand...
Nope... The -7 beats it there by $15 too... :)
 
Tom Martin said:
I am not a high time IFR pilot, only four years. I came to the IFR game late in life and I am going to be a bit brutal here. If you want to fly IFR with minimal equipment then you do not have the right mind set for the realities of IMC conditions.
Go get some flight training in real clouds with an instructor. My guess is that you will then want as much equipment as you put under the hood!
Click to expand...

I'll heartily second Tom's position. When you're in the soup, there's never enough equipment to get you home safely.

We all tend to watch our budgets closely - that's a natural reaction to obvious pressures. Just for a minute consider the scenario where you're in clouds, perhaps navigating between points of high terrain or other obstacles, and your single nav radio gives up the ghost, leaving you totally blind. At that moment, how much do you think you would be willing to pay for additional nav gear? That's a question you just never want to be in a position to answer. Flying IFR is not the place for half measures.
 
Canadian_JOY said:
Just for a minute consider the scenario where you're in clouds, perhaps navigating between points of high terrain or other obstacles, and your single nav radio gives up the ghost, leaving you totally blind. At that moment, how much do you think you would be willing to pay for additional nav gear? That's a question you just never want to be in a position to answer. Flying IFR is not the place for half measures.
Click to expand...

By that logic, we should never leave the ground in anything less than a twin turbine aircraft.
 
Snowflake said:
Really? Judging by the prices on Vans' site today, the -7 would be even more economical, by about $500. By the time you need your engine, we'll be at par again, and you won't have given up the aerobatic capability.


Nope... The -7 beats it there by $15 too... :)
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Not getting into that battle, suffice it to say that for my needs the -9 is the right choice!

I'm surprised, but glad, to learn that 2 GPS's qualifies ... still one single point of failure though: the GPS signal/constellation itself.

Got me wondering how many aviation GPSS systems now support or will support) the russian and/or european systems ... that would be a better backup strategy it seems ... get rid of ground navaids, but have 2 independent space based systems for redundancy ...
 
__________________
J.F.
Future RV-9A or RV-14A Builder (Hopefully)
Future EAA 245 Member (Hopefully)
Current Piper Warrior PA-28-151 Owner/Pilot
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

************

JF, we are having our monthly EAA meeting tonight at the Aviation Museum at 1930.
 
kamikaze said:
I'm surprised, but glad, to learn that 2 GPS's qualifies ...
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Don't think this is correct, IIRC when you file for an airport with only a GPS approach your alternate airport must have a non GPS approach. Remember that a 430 has VOR and ILS capability as well as GPS approach capability, so two 430s would qualify.
 
SMO said:
Don't think this is correct, IIRC when you file for an airport with only a GPS approach your alternate airport must have a non GPS approach. Remember that a 430 has VOR and ILS capability as well as GPS approach capability, so two 430s would qualify.
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Two 430's, too rich for my blood.

Of course there are many cessna's etc flying around for many years with just VOR and ADF and doing well. With a 495 and ipad to offer unofficial situational awarness as well it should work.

Talked to several airline pilots that did this in DC9's, unofficial garmin pilot 3 on the dash.
 
IFR REQUIREMENT IN CANADA

''Talked to several airline pilots that did this in DC9's''

Yeah, I remember those days in the Maritime in crappy weather at minimums....It kept us sharp though...:)

Bruno
 
rv8bldr said:
JF, we are having our monthly EAA meeting tonight at the Aviation Museum at 1930.
Click to expand...

Waiting for my garage heater to come in, and then things will hopefully pick up, still got to work through Van's practice kits ... hopefully I'll order my tail within 2-3 months and start participating more actively ...

Yes, I know I should/could start earlier, but you know, gotta preserve the marriage ;)
 
When you're ready, our chapter meetings are the third Thursday of each month at 1930 at the museum (until May; in June it is at CYRP in the chapter building).

Cheers
 
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