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Buying a used engine

J Twilbeck

J Twilbeck

Well Known Member
All,
I have the opportunity to buy a used IO-540-B1A5
I still need to reasearch how this compares to the D4A5 that comes from Vans, but here is the info on this engine
1. Coming off a flying C-182T. (After 12 years an AD requires the crankshaft to be replaced, so he can't fly it anymore come end of April)
2. 2300hrs, first run engine
3. privately owned aircraft until recently bought to rent out
4. no issues, runs great, no damage (ie prop strike etc)
5. $19k
6. comes with fuel pump, mags (although I want an electronic igniton), maybe a starter

I need some help guys...
is this a good buy? If I buy it should I overhaul it? How much is that...13k? The crankshaft alone, new, is 10-11k....does this even need to be replaced?

I guess my main question is, what do I need to know and do when buying a used engine.

Thanks,
 
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If AD says the crank needs to be replaced, then it needs to be replaced!

At some point, certification, condition inspection, etc., you must sign off the airplane as "in a condition for safe operation."
How could you do that knowing there's an AD that has not been complied with?
 
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You can check the serials numbers of the engine and crankshaft to see if the crankshaft AD has been complied with on Lycoming's website. When I did mine, Lycoming offered a crankshaft AD compliance kit for around $7000 IIRC. I did not need it with my engine as the AD had already been done. My engine is the IO-540 V4A5 so a little different sump than the D4A5 Vans uses and sells. All that being said, I think the price is way to steep for what is basically a core engine. I paid $13K for mine with 291 hours TTSN from Wentworth. It was a very mild prop-strike engine out of a 2001 Maule and I followed Lycoming's instructions for tear down, inspection/repair, and reassembly. That cost me around $4K and I did the work myself sending the required parts out for inspection and fresh yellow tags. I got mine about 4 years ago now but I was glancing through Tade A Plane the other day and there were some decent buys on overhauled IO-540's listed in the engine classifieds.
 
That sounds like a lot of $$ for a core, that's really all it's worth. Crank replacement and Major required. By the time your done, I'd wager you'll pay as much or less for a new engine.

A Major with crank replacement on my IO-320 was $18,000!! For the IO-540, I wouldn't be surprised if it was twice that!
 
I agree with David, the price is extremely high, especially if you have to replace the crank.

If I remember correctly from when I was engine shopping, a good core was $7-9k and a complete overhaul would be about $20-30k depending on exactly what you wanted done.

My recommendation is to call and talk with Allan Barrett or Rhonda Bewgley at Precision or Bart or Sue at Aerosport Engines. Both companies will find the core and rebuild an engine for you. But you'll have to wait a week to call, since I'm sure they are all at SnF right now.

We all said and done when I was shopping, a core and overhauled was about the same as the Van's OEM pricing. I don't know if that still holds true.

I know folks have gotten some real gems from Wentworth, but I think it's really a roll of the dice. They tried to convince me to take an engine from a helicopter and stated it would work in a RV-10 just fine. Fortunately, that was at OSH and went and talked with the Lycoming Field Service tech and Allan Barrett. Both stated that it wasn't a good choice for a variety of reasons.
 
So I found out it's actually an -AB1A5 which is only 230hp and after doing a little research the price is really to high for what you get.

Side note Wentworth won't even buy this engine because of the crankshaft.

Wentworth does have some cheap engines that would require a new crankshaft and overhaul, has anyone gone this route and found it worth it?
 
For what its worth

I paid $12,000 for a disassembled core that included used accessories and yellow tagged rods, case, and crank.

I bought new flow matched ECI cyl's with new pistons with my desired compression ratio, Sent the cam off for yellow tag, sent the entire fuel injection system to be re-worked and calibrated, rebuilt one magneto myself, bought new lightspeed ignition for other side, bought new fuel pump, sent the crank back to have the rods turned (previous yellow tag was within serviceable tolerance but outside of new tolerance), new misc. items. engine mount ears, sparkplugs, starter, fuel injector line, oil pump housing and gears, gaskets.....

Ended up with approx $25-28k in it.


Keep in mind that if you ever sell ... depending on the buyer, they will like a factory new engine over a rebuilt even if you did everything to factory new spec.
 
rleffler said:
We all said and done when I was shopping, a core and overhauled was about the same as the Van's OEM pricing. I don't know if that still holds true.
Click to expand...

I remember researching this a year or two ago and decided a new engine was the way to go...but then this offer came along and has reignited my interest. I think I'm gonna wind up at the same place I did before and decide a new engine is the way to go.:eek:

...but I'm open for suggestions
 
Weasel said:
I paid $12,000 for a disassembled core that included used accessories and yellow tagged rods, case, and crank.

I bought new flow matched ECI cyl's with new pistons with my desired compression ratio, Sent the cam off for yellow tag, sent the entire fuel injection system to be re-worked and calibrated, rebuilt one magneto myself, bought new lightspeed ignition for other side, bought new fuel pump, sent the crank back to have the rods turned (previous yellow tag was within serviceable tolerance but outside of new tolerance), new misc. items. engine mount ears, sparkplugs, starter, fuel injector line, oil pump housing and gears, gaskets.....

Ended up with approx $25-28k in it.


Keep in mind that if you ever sell ... depending on the buyer, they will like a factory new engine over a rebuilt even if you did everything to factory new spec.
Click to expand...

Thanks Weasel! this is the kind of info I am looking for...
 
Well another option is to stay with a rebuild but let your engine builder of choice handle the details. That's what I did with BPE. They found me a core and did the rebuild with a few upgrades for about what a new motor would have cost me from Van's. As Bob said, give Allan or Rhonda a call and they'll help point you in the right direction.
 
I ended up ordering a BPE for my -10 after considering all the options. If you compare apples to apples (similar features, accessories, etc.) I found the Barrett was at or slightly below a new engine from Van's and it's balanced, blue printed and dyno'ed. Of course I had to bump up the compression, add some better than stock accessories, etc.:D
 
used engine

All previous posts are right on. 19K for a used engine is too much. I had a engine builder find me a solid engine and rebuild it. They actually found one and verified it was good before even offering it to me. They paid 8K for a io540 off a Aztec, all parts are withing new specs.. The problem I had was constant oil leaks and adjustments that the guy with the new Lycoming never needed to deal with the first year. I am very happy with my engine choice considering how much I spent but the constant repairs can really kill your confidence. If you go BPE (barrett), they are a little more expensive but thats because they are worth paying more. Never heard anything negative on them and they will find you the right engine.
If you go the new engine route- dont forget there is a special going on now for SnF.
Best of success!
 
I think you pay for a new engine whatever you choose; it's just a matter of how long it takes to spend the money. I've bought two engines from Wentworth which were at good prices. My RV10 engine was a better price than the $19k for the Cessna engine you looked at - it's too expensive. I wouldn't give more than $10k for that....
There are several really good engine builders if you want to go that route.
Also, try talking to Wentworth about good engines instead of engines that need work.....
Kevin Belue
 
$19,000 Thousand Dollars,That's Nuts! 6 cylinder cores...and that's what this is are cheap. The cranks are toast and everything else needs Tags or replacement
6 cylinder parts cost more than 4 cylinder parts.Yellow tagging ain't cheap.It cost 2 to 3 thousand to yellow tag a motor today.Add to that the cost of a new crank,Cylinders sets it's a no win situation. Pick a reputable engine shop and buy a new engine from them.I've spent $2000 just getting my crank, cam, case Yellow tagged and thousands more replacing everything else.There is no cheap way to build a reliable engine.The more you spend the more you have to spend,Do it right or don't do it.You can't get out and walk and you don't want the people on the ground to have to run for there lives!
 
I've hunted down first run cores twice and after two unhappy results I've since elected to have my engine shop find the core they want to rebuild. Phil Haponic and Mahlon Russell (Mattituck) found my last two engines and I was much, much happier... and it was probably less $$ when it was all done.

With Mattituck gone I've got to find a another engine shop :(
 
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I count myself really fortunate that I got one of the last Aerosport IO540s before the component cost meant they had to stop building 6 cylinder engines. Since the demise of Mattituck it seems the options are either the VANS OEM or Barrett. Or find a core and get an engine shop to zero time it.

Unless you can find some sort of bargain, I suspect the VANS option is probably best at the moment.
 
paul330 said:
I count myself really fortunate that I got one of the last Aerosport IO540s before the component cost meant they had to stop building 6 cylinder engines. Since the demise of Mattituck it seems the options are either the VANS OEM or Barrett. Or find a core and get an engine shop to zero time it.

Unless you can find some sort of bargain, I suspect the VANS option is probably best at the moment.
Click to expand...

This is what I am finding to be true. I remember running this circle a year or so ago and came to the same conclusion.
 
As others have said, that price is insane. If it needs a new crank, the rest isn't worth $5k. That would be a reasonable price for a low time running engine with no problems (someone parting out a twin, etc). It isn't hard to find a core and build up a good engine for in the high 20's, but you have to find the right core for the right price. New jugs are better than rebuilding. Fairly often need a new cam. Overhauled/tagged crank, case and gears, new mags, new starter, fuel servo overhaul, fuel pump overhaul or swap for new, etc. it's a big process, but if you keep all of the receipts and paperwork and get a couple of hundred hours on it, it should bring a decent resale price. I'd rather fly an overhaul with 300 hrs than a brand new engine. Once the crank has been proven, you know what you have. We have 1,300 hrs on an overhaul that had 8,000 total hours before we had it overhauled. No problems at all.

Oh, and you can expect a good shop to charge about $26,000 to overhaul your core, so there you're in the mid 30's, but you have better resale than a field overhaul, especially for the first few hundred hours.
 
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