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Buying a 7

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VanNew

I'm New Here
I am in the process of buying a completed RV7. I am going to help the builder (he's an a&p) complete an annual tomorrow. The airplane has a freshly overhauled Cherokee 180 engine. The airplane looks good and flys just fine. Obviously, we will do a compression check. Can you give me a short list of items to check or look over? Got to admit, I'm getting some buyers' remorse. Could be from all the years of flying and looking at factory built.

P.S. What is a 3-yr old (60hrs) flying 180hp RV7 worth with round guages, fixed prop and one navcom?
 
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Sounds to be a bit late to be asking these questions?

Having recently bought, I'll share my thoughts. Knowing very little about the situation from your post, however, please take them as generalities.

Buying from an A&P builder is a good thing. They should use standard aircraft practices.

I like to look at the empennage closely. It is the first part of the kit to be built, and it's quality can give evidence of whether it was a "learning plane."

Ask if it was a quick build. This gives some assurance of decent (not necessarily better, but good) construction on a large part of the wings and fuse.

Look closely at the FWF. Room for everything to move to deal with engine shake? No rigid fuel lines? Is it clean and neat? Is the exhaust hung appropriately and no cracks? Compression good? Any oil analysis available (for a low time aircraft like you're looking at, maybe not). Burn marks on the cowl (easy fix)? Is there safety wire where there should be safety wire?

You have an excellent opportunity to observe the builder during an annual. Pay attention to the care he takes, and/or the corners he cuts. They may be indicative of the build.

Some other quick things to check...
Canopy fit and finish.
Rear spar attach edge spacing.
Cleanliness (shiny planes tend to be cared for).
Rivet quality (lack of dents, dings, and proper shop head dimensions).

As for price, it depends on many more variables than you give in your question. Anything from $65k to $90k could be reasonable. With an uber paint job and pristine build, maybe even more.

Good luck with your purchase. When applied to the right mission, RV's are excellent aircraft.
 
The paper trail.

Doing an annual with him is an awesome first start. A great opportunity for sure. Don't just look at this as checking compression and looking for problems. Use this as a learning opportunity and have him explain every doohickey you can set eyes on in every open access area. Take great notes and pics of any hidden equipment before you put panels back on.

I'm sure others will have a lot of great advice for what to inspect for trouble on the actual plane. But don't forget to see how good the filing cabinet next to the airplane is. Some of this stuff is critical and particular to experimentals, and you'll probably get more insight about the plane from how good he kept these records. Zero points, btw, for just have an engine and airframe log.

The paper trail:
- OpLims: Have him show you the oplims and take the time to READ every word. This is now your oplims. Nice first task for new rv owner.
- ARROW: W&B (does it seem recent/relevant), checklists, required placards.
- Labels: Is everything in the airplane intuitive to operate or labeled appropriately?
- Logs: maintenance logs for everything.
- AD/SB: Evidence that he has checked AD's and is aware of SB's for any/all equipment - not just stuff under the cowl.
- Part/Serial Numbers: Does he have a detailed list of everything in every part of the airplane that has a part number and serial number on it: engine, prop, mags, antennas, alt, pumps, battery, gauges, a/p servos, strobes, brakes, throttle/mix cables, etc, etc. (If he doesn't have this, then consider creating an inventory on your own during the annual, and do an SB check on every item with mfgr online.)
- RV7 SB: Records that he's followed or is aware of all Van's SB's. They are all online - go have a peek. Some will apply to his kit; some may have been addressed in the instructions before he got the kit.
- Builders Material: All of Drawings and manuals from Van's. You need them.
- Manuals and Installation guides: for any/all equipment. As a few examples, check for the ELT manual/installation guide, radio manual, and even the strobe pack installation guide.
- Wiring Diagrams - not the mfg references in the back of the equipment guides - the actual home-made diagrams that show you the overall bus design of this airplane from fwf to every switch and breaker. No two planes are alike when it comes to electrical.
- Inspections: elt, pitot-static, and transponder tests.
- Bonus: Paint codes, electronic files used to make placards, details used to make/purchase interior, detail on hoses, filters, fluids...

Buyer's remorse is natural, but even the most average RV is so much more fun than the certified world. Enjoy the ride.
 
Pre purchase inspection by 3rd party

I'm only going to comment on what I did when I purchased my 7-A: I asked an independent mechanic that I knew and trusted to conduct a pre-purchase inspection. Everything checked out ok. My wife and I love the airplane.

Asking the builder/seller to perform what is, in effect, the pre-purchase inspection creates a difficult conflict of interest.

Good luck with your purchase.
 
If at all possible, I would take with you a third person, someone you trust, who either knows RV's inside and out and/or is an A&P himself. Someone who has no vested interest in the sale completing, just in observing what's there to see and reporting it back to you in case you've missed it.

Failing that, I suggest taking a good camera and a good flash, and taking pictures of *everything*. Then email those pictures to all of your RV friends and ask for opinions. That was my method. I'm very happy with my -6.
 
Sounds like all good advice. Everyone on the field seems to know this guy and kind of watched the airplane go together. The builder is older and had some medical problems about half way through. Everyone said he ended up with an 'excellent' airplane. Indeed the airplaine looks good except for chalky paint because it was parked outside for two years. The builder worked as an a&p and AI his entire life. He is very comfortable around the airplane. Anyway, we'll learn more tomorrow.
 
Cherokee 180 Engine

Check to see if the 180 was overhauled to certified specs., not necessary in the exp. world. If it was not and there is no documentation for all parts and work done assign NO value to the overhaul!!
 
My experience

60hrs on a 3 yr old plane is a red flag to me based on my experience buying a 3yr old RV7 with an overhauled engine with few hours on it. Definitely look in the cylinders for pitting, which mine had. I knew from the pre-buy that my engine would need new cylinders soon, but it turned out the crank was cracked and the camshaft corroded as well. The $9K I got knocked off the price was no where near enough to pay for the new engine I ended up buying rather than paying almost as much for an overhaul.

Some other things I found on mine since:
Check elevator rigging -- with one side in perfect trail, does the other line up also in trail? Mine did not.
Check aileron rigging -- does the outboard aileron hinge stick up into the airstream? One side of mine sticks up about 1/4"
These 2 thinks likely are causing a majorly heavy left wing, which I can't test until I finish getting the new engine installed. When test flying, be sure to get to altitude and fly trimmed straight and level at max cruise to see if it flys hands off. I spent more time yanking and banking with a big RV grin on my face, only to discover how annoying cross-country flight was after the deal was done.
Feel free to call me if you want to hear more about my experience: five-oh-three, 709-fourteen ninety two.
 
Depends...

VanNew said:
P.S. What is a 3-yr old (60hrs) flying 180hp RV7 worth with round guages, fixed prop and one navcom?
Click to expand...

That depends on so many things... Chalky paint? That's my first red flag as it was outside for 2 years, a nasty way to treat a new RV. Pictures would sure help of exterior, interior, engine bay, and an equipment list. Also might help if you have your own condition inspection checklist. Do a search here for one and have it available. Note if he uses one or just does it by memory.

Others gave good advice on a disinterested third party.

Good luck!
 
GeneL said:
Check to see if the 180 was overhauled to certified specs., not necessary in the exp. world. If it was not and there is no documentation for all parts and work done assign NO value to the overhaul!!
Click to expand...

It appears to be a real overhaul. The builder is an A&P. The logbook details all the overhauled (some new) parts - and is signed off by the builder A&P as an overhaul. There are numerous yellow tags (8130-3) to go with it. I'm a real skeptic, but it appears to be a real overhaul.
 
Spindrift said:
60hrs on a 3 yr old plane is a red flag to me based on my experience buying a 3yr old RV7 with an overhauled engine with few hours on it. Definitely look in the cylinders for pitting, which mine had. I knew from the pre-buy that my engine would need new cylinders soon, but it turned out the crank was cracked and the camshaft corroded as well. The $9K I got knocked off the price was no where near enough to pay for the new engine I ended up buying rather than paying almost as much for an overhaul.

Some other things I found on mine since:
Check elevator rigging -- with one side in perfect trail, does the other line up also in trail? Mine did not.
Check aileron rigging -- does the outboard aileron hinge stick up into the airstream? One side of mine sticks up about 1/4"
These 2 thinks likely are causing a majorly heavy left wing, which I can't test until I finish getting the new engine installed. When test flying, be sure to get to altitude and fly trimmed straight and level at max cruise to see if it flys hands off. I spent more time yanking and banking with a big RV grin on my face, only to discover how annoying cross-country flight was after the deal was done.
Feel free to call me if you want to hear more about my experience: five-oh-three, 709-fourteen ninety two.
Click to expand...

Everything appears to line up and match the other side, but I'll check again tonight. It is too bad that the airplane sat for so long. The owner claims that he ran the engine every month. I know that this is not enough, but it's better than nothing.
 
Jerry Cochran said:
That depends on so many things... Chalky paint? That's my first red flag as it was outside for 2 years, a nasty way to treat a new RV. Pictures would sure help of exterior, interior, engine bay, and an equipment list. Also might help if you have your own condition inspection checklist. Do a search here for one and have it available. Note if he uses one or just does it by memory.

Others gave good advice on a disinterested third party.

Good luck!
Click to expand...
I agree, but hangars are extemely difficult to find in this area. The airplane is now in my hangar. The airplane really just has a com, xponder, & single axis trutrak ap - no nav. I'm going to have to put in a gps. Everything else looks surprisingly clean. Fortunately, it doesn't rain too much in AZ. Got a wild estimate on value?
 
The owner claims that he ran the engine every month. I know that this is not enough, but it's better than nothing.
Click to expand...
Yipe. Ask how he ran it. Start up and run for 5 minutes to get the oil circulated and then shut down again? Or run for 1/2 hour at 1500rpm to bring the oil up to 200 degrees and boil off the water?

Running it once a month is frequently worse for the engine than just letting it sit. If I were you I'd look in each cylinder with a borescope, through the spark plug holes, as a minimum.
 
Snowflake said:
Yipe. Ask how he ran it. Start up and run for 5 minutes to get the oil circulated and then shut down again? Or run for 1/2 hour at 1500rpm to bring the oil up to 200 degrees and boil off the water?

Running it once a month is frequently worse for the engine than just letting it sit. If I were you I'd look in each cylinder with a borescope, through the spark plug holes, as a minimum.
Click to expand...

Obviously, he claims that he ran it long enough to cook any water. If I can find a borescope we will use it. The good thing is, the airplane was built and stayed in Arizona for its life.
 
We did borescope the cylinders. The number one cyl has about a 2 X 3 inch area that is dark reddish. The mechanic that owned the borescope did not know what it was - so we have another mechanic coming in with another borescope. Compression was 79/80 on all cylinders, cold. BTW these are '10 over' pistons and cyl. Any problem with that?
 
Spindrift said:
60hrs on a 3 yr old plane is a red flag to me based on my experience buying a 3yr old RV7 with an overhauled engine with few hours on it. Definitely look in the cylinders for pitting, which mine had. I knew from the pre-buy that my engine would need new cylinders soon, but it turned out the crank was cracked and the camshaft corroded as well. The $9K I got knocked off the price was no where near enough to pay for the new engine I ended up buying rather than paying almost as much for an overhaul.
Click to expand...

An engine sitting in Arizona has a much better chance of no rust..........than one in Portland Oregan. I live in Utah, which is good to Lycomings........humidity wise. Arizona is even better1

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
VanNew said:
Obviously, he claims that he ran it long enough to cook any water. If I can find a borescope we will use it. The good thing is, the airplane was built and stayed in Arizona for its life.
Click to expand...

I want to formally thank you. We examined each cylinder again with a borescope, and found some rust in each one. Turns out every mechanic and person on the field is trying to sell this airplane. Anyway, got a very clear response from Lycoming and other off-field mechanics. 'Rust is bad, replace the cylinders.' The deal is off. Thanks again.
 
I bet the camshaft has lots of rust too. As mentioned, just ground running is bad in my opinion. I keep an engine dryer system on mine and I live in Colorado.
 
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