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Another one bites the dust!

R

rvrider

Member
Well, it's not that bad ... I don't mean dead, just my project. :(

The good news is that my wife and I are proud parents again, we have a nine month old son. He's really beautiful/healthy and we're very happy he's joined our family!

The bad news, and I never thought this would happen to me, is that I can't see a way to afford the time, energy and money to complete my RV-7A slider kit. Furthermore, I'm accepting that the cost of flying is beyond my means if I ever want to retire.

I will miss the commaraderie of other builders, the smell of Oshkosh and Sun 'n Fun, and dream of flying wherever in a RV built with my own hands. This is one of the most difficult decisions I've made in my life. Flying has been in my blood since I was eleven (I just passed the 50 milemarker).

After I inventory my Van's purchases, some extras, and the Avery tools, I'll post an offer to sell in the classifieds. This is a heads-up if you know anyone who's interested. See the project at: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/jgburns/RV-7A_main.html
 
I've been in your shoes, and I'm a lot older than you now. Two things:

-1- If you waited until you could afford to have kids, you'd never have them.

-2- You can't know what the future holds.

Consider, just consider, postponing your decision. The cost of flying now shouldn't factor into things because you're not flying now.

Considering doing nothing. It won't cost you anything. Then you can just do a little here and a little there.

You're too young to be giving up dreams so early in life.
 
John,

Congratulations on the birth of your son! I had no idea another lil aviator was on the way in the Burn's household.

Being similarly time/money/child raising challenged, my RV10 project has also stalled and I have considered selling it. However, now that I'm living at the airpark, I have enough room to store it for....who knows....maybe someday I'll press on with it. I agree with Bob wholeheartedly in that perhaps you should step back and just take a hiatus from it for a while. Unless you have no room to move around the airplane parts and are sure you would only ding them up, why not hold onto them and let the dust settle for a while? I've seen your house...you do NOT have a space crisis. :) Both kids still have to sleep sometime and that's when you can work on it.

I know, it's a hard decision to face, and quitting on ANYthing is not a part of me. I've resigned myself to not just "give up" on it and to honestly prioritize my life and available time, knowing full well the RV10 will never be top on the list. Being a good husband and father, are my priorities. A wife or child will miss you. A pile of airplane parts will not. I'm sure your wife wants your dream to remain a part of you. Debbie cringes when I mention "RV10" and "sell" or "stop the project". And, she REALLY freaks when I mention "sell RV8" to fund the RV10! I love that gal.

We gotta dream. It's what guys do and keeps us learning. (And, smart gals KNOW that.) Maybe try to imagine where you'll be in 12-15 years....your daughter off to college, your son busy doing his own thing....sports, band, etc, and there you are in that awesome house on a quiet night, with your RV project STILL THERE and ready to move forward. That's where I'm at in my head on my project...don't underestimate the magic of time and compound interest. :D

So chill for a while. Enjoy your baby and let time work it's magic.
 
Waiting has been the story of my life

Bob Collins said:
I've been in your shoes, and I'm a lot older than you now. Two things:

-1- If you waited until you could afford to have kids, you'd never have them.

-2- You can't know what the future holds.

Consider, just consider, postponing your decision. The cost of flying now shouldn't factor into things because you're not flying now.

Considering doing nothing. It won't cost you anything. Then you can just do a little here and a little there.

You're too young to be giving up dreams so early in life.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your feedback Bob. I'll think about it for a little while longer. Waiting has been the story of my life. I waited to have children, thinking one day I would have enough money to make it easier. It is easier now than it would have been twenty years ago (finacially, not energy-wise), but at the expense of the passion/pursuit of my life.

While flying has been in my blood for a long while, something always more important gets in the way whether time, energy or money. For the last 2-1/2 years all three! The end of competing interests seems like it won't come for another fifteen years. I've been thinking, Why keep the tin? Another kit could be purchased later if I have the money and health to build/fly. How many folks percentage wise can acquire and keep their third-class medical after age 65? I know this sounds negative (sorry about that).

Between the above and increasing government regulations, I wonder how much less affordable flying will become to common class guys like us.
 
Brian Denk said:
John,

Congratulations on the birth of your son! I had no idea another lil aviator was on the way in the Burn's household.

Being similarly time/money/child raising challenged, my RV10 project has also stalled and I have considered selling it. However, now that I'm living at the airpark, I have enough room to store it for....who knows....maybe someday I'll press on with it. I agree with Bob wholeheartedly in that perhaps you should step back and just take a hiatus from it for a while. Unless you have no room to move around the airplane parts and are sure you would only ding them up, why not hold onto them and let the dust settle for a while? I've seen your house...you do NOT have a space crisis. :) Both kids still have to sleep sometime and that's when you can work on it.

I know, it's a hard decision to face, and quitting on ANYthing is not a part of me. I've resigned myself to not just "give up" on it and to honestly prioritize my life and available time, knowing full well the RV10 will never be top on the list. Being a good husband and father, are my priorities. A wife or child will miss you. A pile of airplane parts will not. I'm sure your wife wants your dream to remain a part of you. Debbie cringes when I mention "RV10" and "sell" or "stop the project". And, she REALLY freaks when I mention "sell RV8" to fund the RV10! I love that gal.

We gotta dream. It's what guys do and keeps us learning. (And, smart gals KNOW that.) Maybe try to imagine where you'll be in 12-15 years....your daughter off to college, your son busy doing his own thing....sports, band, etc, and there you are in that awesome house on a quiet night, with your RV project STILL THERE and ready to move forward. That's where I'm at in my head on my project...don't underestimate the magic of time and compound interest. :D

So chill for a while. Enjoy your baby and let time work it's magic.
Click to expand...
Ditto to my reply to Bob. With an additional thanks for disclosing your doubts! I feel a little less alone.
 
Oh, I left out one downside of selling a partially completed kit. You're going to get a lot of jerks -- sorry, but they are -- wasting your time and then offering you a ridiculous amount of money. Bottom feeders. And then there are others who just want to see what an RV project looks like who come buy under the guise of maybe buying your project. It's a total pain in the neck.

Here's one other thing.

Again, this is from the voice of experience. Yep, those kids are going to cost you a lot of money and they're going to give you a lot of pleasure and heartbreak.

But, in the end, if you do your parenting job right, they're going to go be their own people and do their own thing...and there you are... pretty much where you were before they were born. And you may not think so now, but I can tell you it goes by in the blink of an eye.

Nobody should build a plane at the expense of providing for their family, of course, and nobody is suggesting you do. But dreams have a way of being accomodated.... -- and here's the key words -- over time.
 
Don't sell

I started building my RV-6 out of college in a single car garage. I misused government funds and took part of a student loan to buy the tailkit in my senoir year. When I got out I got a job and found an apartment that had a single car garage. I started in and built the tail in about 6 months. I got married a year later and bought a house which cut into the airplane funds. I just bought stuff as I could afford it. I worked extra jobs and saved money. I had two kids in the process. It took 6 years to get in the air and I had a very nice IO-360, C/S, full panel, interior, nice paint, very fast RV-6. I spent over 85K!!!! So kids, house payments, car payments, and other stuff should not affect your dreams. Build the airplane one rivet at a time when you can, it's not a race, it's a journey. If I could do it, anyone can do it. Remember, if it was easy, everyone would build an airplane. That which does not kill you will only make you stronger. Just sit on it for while a form a plan of attack on the next stage.
 
sage advice

Dreams have a way of being accomodated...........over time.[/QUOTE]

Nicely put.
I tell others who ask the "how long" question........... it's not a race.
 
Yes, WAIT...........

Bob Collins said:
And you may not think so now, but I can tell you it goes by in the blink of an eye.

Nobody should build a plane at the expense of providing for their family, of course, and nobody is suggesting you do. But dreams have a way of being accomodated.... -- and here's the key words -- over time.
Click to expand...

Very good advice. I'm 61 and still haven't quite become accustomed to the "empty nest" syndrome, but man, did my son's 20 years go by fast! Whew! I spent many, many hard days crop-dusting and still do, while he and my older son loaded chemicals and sweated in the hot Georgia sun.

They're both married and doing life. I still have my life, airplanes and miss them dearly and see them when I can.

Please, just sit on it a while, 6 months or so, after this beautiful new adjustment in your lives,
Sincerely,
 
Bob Collins said:
Oh, I left out one downside of selling a partially completed kit. You're going to get a lot of jerks -- sorry, but they are -- wasting your time and then offering you a ridiculous amount of money. Bottom feeders. And then there are others who just want to see what an RV project looks like who come buy under the guise of maybe buying your project. It's a total pain in the neck.

Here's one other thing.

Again, this is from the voice of experience. Yep, those kids are going to cost you a lot of money and they're going to give you a lot of pleasure and heartbreak.

But, in the end, if you do your parenting job right, they're going to go be their own people and do their own thing...and there you are... pretty much where you were before they were born. And you may not think so now, but I can tell you it goes by in the blink of an eye.

Nobody should build a plane at the expense of providing for their family, of course, and nobody is suggesting you do. But dreams have a way of being accomodated.... -- and here's the key words -- over time.
Click to expand...


Accomidated.!?!?. Compromised seems more the term. If your 50 and having a kid your building/flying days are about over unless you have a really good job otherwise either the kid / The plane/ retirement are going to get short changed in the end. Sad to say, I would probably sell my kit also. Kids are expensive and make a airplane look cheap!
 
Please,please don't give up

Man I can't afford this lifestyle either. When you look at your airplane on PAPER it seems to be waaay to expensive and it's gonna take a long time to do it..."seems".The fact is that many of us can't afford to look at the long- run or we will lose perspective on what the real goal here is...this is a part of who you are dude,this is very important to you or you never would have made it this far. It is a lifestyle that you see yourself having in your future, and you cant tell me you haven't fantasized about taking your kids up in the family plane that they have helped build with you,or visiting them in college after its built.Walk away from it for a little while ..cool off...put it on the back burner dude.If you build this plane right you have the greatest gift a Daddy can leave for his kids...a FREEKIN AIRPLANE!! My 14 year old just made the journey to L.O.E. with me to see what its all about [by car] and he was blown away, he's hooked and i KNOW that this is something that brings my family closer together.Look, I'm actually poor, so i got myself a well-off partner that will ease the financial strain and some of the work load---you should consider this option. Also look at all the guys around you...look at DELTA ROMEO, he shows us how to make small lifestyle changes that really add up and make this airplane a little more affordable.Take a break from the plane.But build the plane when you can.Do it for your kids...and get some freekin sleep....your actin crazy and not thinkin straight.
 
cold and harsh questions

how much of the work have you done yourself ? it looks like by your webpage that you only built the emp. seems to me you know just what you want to do.
sell it, they'll still be making em if you change your mind. i fight with this every now and then.like when its time to pony up the 20 grand for an engine or the 15 grand for my cheap panel.i get to thinking im done because ive been trained to not look down the road and realize i need another 10 grand for paint. oh **** i havent bought the seats yet either **** it.i often say if i had started flying before building i wouldve just bought a cessna 172-182. i like to fly, going fast is just extends my range. the way i like to fly i was spending 400 a week in rental so i need my own bird. in the end i wouldnt loose a dime from parts perspective but i would do what makes me feel at ease. **** let me quit lying ive been trying to quit for 3 years now and still cant bring myself to do it. :eek: just remembered the prop....might need that
 
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is storage a possibality?

If you only have the stab done as mentioned in a prior post, then it takes up little room, I would think that you could just put things "up in the rafters" for a while---------in a few months-----or a year, you will have a better grasp on your situtation, and can make a decesion at that time.

Way too much going on in your life now.

Good luck.

Mike
 
How do you afford flying and fixed expenses

Aden Rich said:
I started building my RV-6 out of college in a single car garage. I misused government funds and took part of a student loan to buy the tailkit in my senoir year. When I got out I got a job and found an apartment that had a single car garage. I started in and built the tail in about 6 months. I got married a year later and bought a house which cut into the airplane funds. I just bought stuff as I could afford it. I worked extra jobs and saved money. I had two kids in the process. It took 6 years to get in the air and I had a very nice IO-360, C/S, full panel, interior, nice paint, very fast RV-6. I spent over 85K!!!! So kids, house payments, car payments, and other stuff should not affect your dreams. Build the airplane one rivet at a time when you can, it's not a race, it's a journey. If I could do it, anyone can do it. Remember, if it was easy, everyone would build an airplane. That which does not kill you will only make you stronger. Just sit on it for while a form a plan of attack on the next stage.
Click to expand...
Paying for the building cost is just the beginning. How do you afford, insurance, hanger, annuals, repairs, fuel, ...? I estimate my annual expense for 100 hours of flying to range from $10K to $12K. That's a sizable mortgage.
 
Everything but the finish kit and FWF

Mike S said:
If you only have the stab done as mentioned in a prior post, then it takes up little room, I would think that you could just put things "up in the rafters" for a while---------in a few months-----or a year, you will have a better grasp on your situtation, and can make a decesion at that time.

Way too much going on in your life now.

Good luck.

Mike
Click to expand...
Read again -- I have the QB fuselage and wings, as well as empenage. Between the kit and tools, it does take up a lot of space.
 
Not much

cytoxin said:
how much of the work have you done yourself ? it looks like by your webpage that you only built the emp. seems to me you know just what you want to do.
sell it, they'll still be making em if you change your mind. i fight with this every now and then.like when its time to pony up the 20 grand for an engine or the 15 grand for my cheap panel.i get to thinking im done because ive been trained to not look down the road and realize i need another 10 grand for paint. oh **** i havent bought the seats yet either **** it.i often say if i had started flying before building i wouldve just bought a cessna 172-182. i like to fly, going fast is just extends my range. the way i like to fly i was spending 400 a week in rental so i need my own bird. in the end i wouldnt loose a dime from parts perspective but i would do what makes me feel at ease. **** let me quit lying ive been trying to quit for 3 years now and still cant bring myself to do it. :eek: just remembered the prop....might need that
Click to expand...
... about 300 hours of labor, 10,000 of planning and dreaming.
 
RV505 said:
Accomidated.!?!?. Compromised seems more the term. If your 50 and having a kid your building/flying days are about over unless you have a really good job otherwise either the kid / The plane/ retirement are going to get short changed in the end. Sad to say, I would probably sell my kit also. Kids are expensive and make a airplane look cheap!
Click to expand...
I do o.k., and so does my wife. However, we've committed to a big with big mortgage and I'd like to retire within ten years and spend more time with the kids.

What really woke me up was a visit with my brother's best friend. The is a doctor, earning in the neighborhood of $300K/year and his are kids grown. He lives very modestly (house, cars and other stuff), so he can afford airplanes and the cost of flying. His life has been a cycle of buying and selling airplanes, with an occasional break to build up funds for the next purchase. Needless to say, I think that's what it takes if you're not stinkin rich. It ends up being the highest expense.
 
To fly or not to fly. . .

Probably the most memorable few minutes in the past twenty years was the time I told my wife I wanted to build an airplane. We were driving to church. There was a looong pause. "Well, there's one thing you don't want to do." What's that? "Build it when your are 70."

I ordered the tail kit the next day.

We aren't rich by any means, but we were out of debt. I have a partner, my wife's brother. We cut a few corners, but not nearly as many as if I had gone it alone. As I said on another thread, I have only one original piece of ?wisdom?, that is, You can have anything you want if you forget two words: new and now.

One thing that is often forgotten in the equation is the value of the plane at the end. Well made, your end result will be worth more than you have in it. What you will have learned is priceless. Many have built, only to lose their medical. Some find they can't afford the ongoing expense. I have yet to hear one person say the journey wasn't worth it, however.

If you have the support of your family (or at least no resistance,) then at least conisder pressing on. A partner might really be an asset; consider finding one. I was into the wings before my brother-in-law came on board.

Bob Kelly
 
Thanks for your input

videobobk said:
...If you have the support of your family (or at least no resistance,) then at least conisder pressing on. A partner might really be an asset; consider finding one. I was into the wings before my brother-in-law came on board.

Bob Kelly
Click to expand...
Bob, thanks for your input.

While I'm at it, thanks to everyone who shared their perspective, for or against selling the kit. Believe me, I've thought about every pro and con articulated in this thread. And, my inactivity on the project for the last year has been about giving myself time to think. My wife wants me do whatever makes me feel better. ... if only I knew. We've discussed options, such as taking on a partner, but I'm concerned that could back-fire (it has before for me).

I'll put this off until Thanksgiving before making a final decision, the options being mothball the project until I'm ready to press on or definately sell, sell, or get back to work.

BTW Bob, I like the carbon fiber canopy --slick! I hope it's as quiet as it looks.
 
Women have that way of painting you in a corner. They get the big house with the big mortgage with the 2.5 kids and the SUV. Everything is for the kids. Which means there ain't much Left for old dad. Then they say "Do whatever you want" but there isn't much left over to do want you want with! I don't think alot us said when we were younger that we wanted a house full of kids!?!. I know I didn't. I wanted to build a plane and fly around the world and meet different people and live like a Jimmy Buffet/Porn Star/Capt Morgan kind of guy with a side kick with a funny name.
 
It Sounds Like "YOU" want out

It sounds to me like you want out of this commitment. Your heart isn't in it and you have some health concerns. Sometimes it is just good to get out from under a heavy load like this and you have made the decision. You sense the relief but at the same time your life long involvement with flying causes you to hesitate. It is a life altering decision but more so if you build the plane than if you don't.

I doubt that your health will improve if you do not build the airplane and I doubt that your kids will respect you more if you do not build it.

The decision is tough only if you decide to procrastinate or build the plane.

I turn 70 on November 3, 2006 and so far this year I have done 17,400 push-ups plus the rest of my exercise routine. Several years ago I gave up eating food with saturated fat when I have a choice (I read the labels when we shop). I gave up coffee and started drinking tea. I am a little over 6 ft tall (though bowed with time) and although I love to eat and put on weight very easily (weight 228 lbs when I was 19) I keep my weight in the mid 180s. Baring disease, you have a big influence on your own health. Doing less may help but I doubt it.

Retirement is highly overrated. I worked until I was 68 and retired when I had my plane built and the main project I was working on came to an end. I was working another project concurrently and it will not launch for a few years yet - in other words I could have continued to work until well into my 70s. I am getting over it but sometimes when I having some quiet time with myself I admit to missing it. As I drift more and more out of the mainstream of working society I recognize a change in me and it is not all good.

Good luck with your decision.

Bob Axsom
 
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Bob Axsom said:
It sounds to me like you want out of this commitment. Your heart isn't in it.
Bob Axsom
Click to expand...

Yep, I got the same feeling as Bob, I dont think your heart is in this, and you are looking for approvial to make that decession.

You have mine.

Mike
 
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The unvarnished truth about building airplanes

Mike S said:
Yep, I got the same feeling.
Mike
Click to expand...
...a good article by Randy Lervold awhile back. Seems appropriate to list it here. The 'anyone can do it' mentality is so entrenched in my mind that I sometimes have to step back and remind myself that it's not for everyone.

On the positive side it is very encouraging to see people HONESTLY evaluating their lives and their surroundings. :)


Read it:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=6883

Best,
Doug
 
true,,, but

RV505 said:
Women have that way of painting you in a corner. They get the big house with the big mortgage with the 2.5 kids and the SUV. Everything is for the kids. Which means there ain't much Left for old dad. Then they say "Do whatever you want" but there isn't much left over to do want you want with! I don't think alot us said when we were younger that we wanted a house full of kids!?!. I know I didn't. I wanted to build a plane and fly around the world and meet different people and live like a Jimmy Buffet/Porn Star/Capt Morgan kind of guy with a side kick with a funny name.
Click to expand...
once they are here you wonder how you could go without them. i'll trade all my toys for being called DAD or for you rednecks DIDDY :D it is just a plane that can be again later. i wouldnt hold that investment for more than a year or two. the way this economy and technology change i would have to let it ride just save the money it'll grow to.
 
Doug, good link.

I remember reading Randys "essay" before.

Just one little point of clairafaction--------I was agreeing with Bobs assesment, not saying I want out.

Mike
 
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