Annual inspection without oil change?

[Pilottonny]

During the bad weather we currently have, I have started making my maintenance manual. I am a bit puzzled about how to best make the maintenance schedule.

What I am wondering is: if you have done a 50 hr. oil change, lets say 20 hrs. before the annual inspection is due, do you throw away 8 Qrts of perfectly good oil and a fairly new oil filter, or do the annual without changing the oil and do that 30 hrs. later?

I am curious what others are doing.

Regards, Tonny.

 

[KRviator]

I would say an annual inspection is just that, an inspection, not necessarily a cover-all maintenance event, particularly if you have only changed the oil/plugs/coolant 10 hours ago, and they have another 40 hours before they're due.

So long as its' noted in the logbook "x" was changed recently, and it is not due, that's enough. To me at least.

 

[plehrke]

I would say an annual inspection is just that, an inspection, not necessarily a cover-all maintenance event, particularly if you have only changed the oil/plugs/coolant 10 hours ago, and they have another 40 hours before they're due.

So long as its' noted in the logbook "x" was changed recently, and it is not due, that's enough. To me at least.

I concur as well as my A&P/IA friends at the airport. I have done this several times on my RV as well as my Cessna.

 

[brianwallis]

??????!

Soooooo..... how are you going to inspect the oil screen without draining the oil....? of course... if you don't have one... this does not apply. I ALWAYS drain the oil. I don't care if it's got 1 hr on it. For my signature to be on it.... It's gotta go through the entire checklist. I would change the oil period.... this would avoid any real uncomfortable moments if anything should happen and Uncle Fed should put you at the business end of a pencil. If you don't think this is a cover all maintenance event... try explaining to a widow why her husband is dead.... geee.... uhhh I did'nt think changing the oil wuz important mrs so and so.... sorry bout that ma'mm. Thankfully my signature has not been the one on the book but when you know somebody..... and their family.... and now you have to explain what happened just because you are a mechanic.... it gets pretty uncomfortable.

"(3) Internal Engine - for cylinder compression and for metal particles or foreign matter on screens and sump drain plugs.

Best
Brian

 

[apkp777]

Why not annual your plane when the oil change is due? Of course not to exceed 12 calender months, but you can always do it earlier. You could annual the engine (powerplant) separate from the airframe also?

 

[Walt]

Brian is correct, quoted from 43 App D:

(3) Internal engine?for cylinder compression and for metal particles or foreign matter on screens and sump drain plugs. If there is weak cylinder compression, for improper internal condition and improper internal tolerances.

But.... there is no reason you cannot re-use the drained oil if it only has a few hours on it (if you can find a clean bucket to put it in!).

Personally I change my oil every 25 hrs and then do the oil and filter at 50 hrs.

 

[JonJay]

Progressive Maintenance....

I dont believe there is any problem doing progressive maintenance at appropriate intervals. However, if I was doing it for a living on someone elses airplane, I would not trust what was done prior to me even if it was logged an hour ago.

 

[RVbySDI]

I dont believe there is any problem doing progressive maintenance at appropriate intervals. However, if I was doing it for a living on someone elses airplane, I would not trust what was done prior to me even if it was logged an hour ago.

I agree with this but I also agree with Brian and Walt's reasoning based upon your statement of

. . .if I was doing it for a living on someone else's airplane. . .

If you are working on your own airplane and know exactly what has transpired on any previous maintenance work, inspections, etc. then who are you trusting to have done "due diligence"? Yourself.

I am not an A&P, AI nor did I sleep at a Holiday Inn last night. Just my .02.

Live Long and Prosper!

 

[apkp777]

Doing powerplant and airframe annual's at different times isn't progressive maintenance. There is a procedure that allows for a progressive inspection whereby you could do LH wing, then RH, then EMP then Ctr section. It's not really well suited for light aircraft. There is FAA approval for certified aircraft to do such. I suppose you could do that without approval on an experimental provided each item is inspected in a 12 calender month period.

Personally, I will try to schedule my annual when my oil change is due. Even if I do it a month or two early.

 

[Sid Lambert]

I think there are 2 separate situations here.

Situation #1: The owner of the aircraft has the repairman certificate and is performing the inspection. Action: If you change the oil and check the screen 2 weeks (10 flight hours) before the yearly condition inspection then there is no need to do it again during the inspection.

Situation #2: You are paying an A&P to do the inspection. Action: The oil and screen need to be changed no matter how much time or hours since the last oil change/screen inspection for the A&P to sign off.

 

[JonJay]

Progressive Maintenance may not be the appropriate terminology

Doing powerplant and airframe annual's at different times isn't progressive maintenance. There is a procedure that allows for a progressive inspection whereby you could do LH wing, then RH, then EMP then Ctr section. It's not really well suited for light aircraft. There is FAA approval for certified aircraft to do such. I suppose you could do that without approval on an experimental provided each item is inspected in a 12 calender month period.

Personally, I will try to schedule my annual when my oil change is due. Even if I do it a month or two early.

I would not want to confuse a simple oil change by using that term, just cant find a better way to express it.

 

[apkp777]

Yep, yep and yep... The beauty of building a plane is YOU can do just about whatever you want to do maintenance wise. As long as you do your required log book endorsement your conscience can be your guide.

 

[Toobuilder]

No problem either reusing the oil (if low time), or accomplishing the screen/drain plug "condition inspection" several weeks or months before the "annual". All parts of the airplane must be inspected once a year - there is no requirement that all parts are inspected in the same month.

 

[Walt]

No problem either reusing the oil (if low time), or accomplishing the screen/drain plug "condition inspection" several weeks or months before the "annual". All parts of the airplane must be inspected once a year - there is no requirement that all parts are inspected in the same month.

Don't want to be a Party Pooper here but I don't believe this is correct.... even as the owner doing your own maintenance if you sign off the log book stating that you did the condition inspection per 43 appd D then you are stating you accomplished the work at that time, period.

Ref 43.12:
(a) No person may make or cause to be made:

(1) Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any record or report that is required to be made, kept, or used to show compliance with any requirement under this part;

 

[larrynew]

...if you sign off the log book stating that you did the condition inspection per 43 appd D then you are stating you accomplished the work at that time, period.

Trying to learn here. Is there a specific time in which a condition inspection must be completed? If I sign and date, does that mean everything was completed on that specific date?

 

[Steve]

The date on the inspection document is the date on which you "found the airplane in a condition for safe operation", not necessarily the same day all the work was performed.

 

[Pilottonny]

OK, to summarize a few thoughts/comments:

I asked what others were doing, did not say I was not going to do any maintenance at all and still sign off for it as if Ihad done it! I guess some people really misunderstood what I am asking! The problem is that there is a difference between time and hours accumulated and things may start to overlap.

I have to make my own maintenance schedule and I can make it the way I want it, as long as I keep the local authorities happy. Your regulations in the USA may (will!) be different!

It is common sense to check everything at least ones every 12 months. Oil and filter gets changed every 50 hrs (assume 100 hrs/year, that would be twice per year). Additionally, items may get checked / overhauled / replaced / repaired as per the manufacturers recommendations. For example the prop gets a major inspection every 650 hrs. or 5 years, or the ELT battery gets replaced every 5 years.

At the moment I am thinking of chopping all the maintenance items in a bunch of logical groups and define when each group is due for checking / changing / overhaul, in such a way that everything gets checked at least ones every 12 months. Obviously these groups will get signed off separately, but may still be done in one inspection if that is convenient at the time. All depending on how many hours and/or how much time since last inspection of each group.


Well.....another question: As with everything, maintenance intervals should have a tolerance. When you are on a trip and a 50 hr. oil change is due, we all know that, if the oil change had to be postponed a little, the engine is not suddenly going to quit at 50,1 hrs. What tolerances are common and/or acceptable?

Regards, Tonny.

 

[Walt]

Nobody would expect that an Annual or Condition inspection could be done in one day, my point was that when you sign the log book as completing the work, the work you sign for was actually completed as part of the inspection you just signed for.

Tony made a reasonable statement here: "As long as you do your required log book endorsement your conscience can be your guide".

On my own airplane.... if I was under the floorboards last month and I checked everything as called out in the insp guidelines, would I necessarily take up those same floor boards again for the "condition insp", maybe.

However, if I am doing someone else's inspection the floor boards come up even if they were out yesterday if I didn't personally look at it.

I guess my point was that legally if you say you did something you must do it. If you tell a higher power "I know I signed for it yesterday but I did it a few months ago so it still should have been good" is not the right answer

 

[Mike S]

At the moment I am thinking of chopping all the maintenance items in a bunch of logical groups and define when each group is due for checking / changing / overhaul, in such a way that everything gets checked at least ones every 12 months. Obviously these groups will get signed off separately, but may still be done in one inspection if that is convenient at the time. All depending on how many hours and/or how much time since last inspection of each group.


Regards, Tonny.

That makes a lot of sense to me, wonder how the FAA would react to a plan like this???

 

[apkp777]

Tonny, I don't think anyone was suggesting your were going to sign off on work that you didn't accomplish. It's just the normal progression of a thread to spiral into misunderstanding, misstatement and stone throwing. I admit, I play my part as much as the next.

I think you are on the right track. Take a checklist and instead of just "checking" the item, date the item when it was completed. The final log book endorsement is the date that the inspection was completed and not the date the work was performed. (as someone else pointed out). It's my understanding the annual inspection is supposed to be a maintenance event that occurs over a period of time from hours to weeks (depending on the list of discrepancies). As far as the oil change, you can do the oil screen and particle inspection when you would normally do the oil change, date that item on your check list when you do it. As far as going over the 50 hours, I personally wouldn't worry about it. I just change my oil at 50 hour intervals on the hobbs not the oil. some oil will go 55 or 60 some 40 or 45.

You're not an A&P so, it's unlikely you will be working on someone else's plane. The rules are much different there. I do EVERYTHING, no exceptions,! Not even if a minute goes by. In fact, when I inspect a plane I don't like people to even go near it. I stopped working as an IA because the liability was too great.

 

[JonJay]

It depends...

Well.....another question: As with everything, maintenance intervals should have a tolerance. When you are on a trip and a 50 hr. oil change is due, we all know that, if the oil change had to be postponed a little, the engine is not suddenly going to quit at 50,1 hrs. What tolerances are common and/or acceptable?

Regards, Tonny.

My understanding is that things like oil and filter changes are "recommendations" from the manufacturer, while things like Prop Service Intervals, or AD's, are not recommendations but requirements and must be performed on or before the time listed.
If you let your oil change go a bit past the recommendation, not much to do. If you let a required service interval pass or an AD you are in series trouble.
Now, how about stirring this discussion a bit. Some people use Hobbs, others Tach, still others Flight Time. Does the manufacturers just list the time or do they also list the method or instrument of it's accumulation?
I use whatever instrument my machine has for this purpose. On the RV it is Hobbs, on the Bucker it is Tach, in my old Aeronca it was my watch. All of which would be very different accumulated times.

 

[Walt]

That makes a lot of sense to me, wonder how the FAA would react to a plan like this???
__________________
Mike Starkey


Progressive inspections are used for part 121 & 135 operations, they must be approved by the FAA.

Much easier to just do your "condition" inspection and leave the progressives to the big boyz!

 

[Toobuilder]

Don't want to be a Party Pooper here but I don't believe this is correct.... even as the owner doing your own maintenance if you sign off the log book stating that you did the condition inspection per 43 appd D then you are stating you accomplished the work at that time, period.

Ref 43.12:
(a) No person may make or cause to be made:

(1) Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any record or report that is required to be made, kept, or used to show compliance with any requirement under this part;

Still can be done (without fraud), as long as it was disclosed. If you really wanted to get picky with the logbook entry, you could simply disclose that the oil screen/plug inspection part of Apendix D's "scope" of work was accomplished last month, or whenever (and your logbook entry from last month will prove it).

The salient point is that the aircraft was inspected at least once per year, it has been found safe for continued service, and it is documented as such.

 

[apkp777]

Whoops, correcting myself here. This is from my Operation Limitations:

(23) Condition inspections must be recorded in the aircraft maintenance records showing the following, or a similarly worded, statement: ?I certify that this aircraft has been inspected on [insert date] in accordance with the scope and detail of appendix D to part 43, and was found to be in a condition for safe operation.? The entry will include the aircraft?s total time-in-service, and the name, signature, certificate number, and type of certificate held by the person performing the inspection.

Even though FAR 43 does not apply to experimental the OPS LIMS require the scope and detail of 43.13 appendix "D". The inspection should be done on [insert date], it doesn't say "dates". I would do the inspection start to finish, create a list of discrepancies then perform the maintenance functions. This is typically how I would do annuals in the past. Except, especially on large aircraft, it could take a couple of days to get the inspection complete. Correcting discrepancies would sometimes take weeks or months.

 

[mikegraycmg]

Your Laws May Vary

It appears to me that the FAA is depending upon the operational limitations of each aircraft to define what must be done in the way of a condition inspection. If your ops lims require an annual condition inspection in accordance with the scope and detail of part 43, app D (and I imagine most American certifications do), then the inspection scope and detail is almost exactly the same as it would be for a certified aircraft (the difference - looks to me like 43.15 wouldn't apply to an experimental, for what it's worth). It's been my view that app D requires an oil change, and the date of your sign-off is the date you say that the internal condition of the engine is good. I doubt if anyone is smart enough to figure out the internal condition of the engine today by looking at oil that was drained a while back when the engine is run some more before sign-off. I can't.

Your jurisdiction may be different. This is just the law in the USA, and there may be common sense rules where you are so that you don't have to go through the exercise.

 

[Toobuilder]

I?ve been in aviation long enough to know better, but I think we're getting too wrapped up in the "letter of the law" vs. the "intent"... The intent is that all bits and pieces of the airplane are inspected at least once per year. There are several ways to accomplish this, so it is unfortunate that the most convenient example is described in our operating limitations, and that has somehow become the ?only? way by default.

In reality, I would find it very hard to imagine a situation where safety was compromised because the ?oil change? part of the condition inspection was performed a month before the remainder of the inspection.

As a practical matter (which often conflicts with the FAA), there is no ?magic? to performing the inspection all at once; after all, your signature of ?airworthiness? is only valid until the ink dries. The remainder of the year is simply on faith.

 

[Mel]

There is a procedure that allows for a progressive inspection whereby you could do LH wing, then RH, then EMP then Ctr section. It's not really well suited for light aircraft. There is FAA approval for certified aircraft to do such. I suppose you could do that without approval on an experimental provided each item is inspected in a 12 calender month period.

Your operating limitations should state that....."in accordance with the scope and detail of appendix D to part 43, or other FAA-approved program,....."
If you plan to use a program that differs from the scope & detail of App D part 43, it must be approved by FAA.

 

[apkp777]

Your operating limitations should state that....."in accordance with the scope and detail of appendix D to part 43, or other FAA-approved program,....."
If you plan to use a program that differs from the scope & detail of App D part 43, it must be approved by FAA.

Correct, but can you spread the "inspection" task out over a period of weeks or even months? I don't think so, but not positive.

 

[Ron B.]

I change the oil and filter every fifty hrs. I cut the filter , check it's condition and keep a sample with hrs and date recorded on it every time. I also check the screen each oil change. I log this in my engine log. I don't change the oil at annual time unless it is close to being due. I fly around 150 hrs per year so that is three checks annually. Seems to me this is better than cutting a filter that has only ten hrs on it. The ten hr change has a lot less chance of catching a problem to me. I'll continue with a safer practice of maintenance.
Ron

 

[John Clark]

Progressive MX

Correct, but can you spread the "inspection" task out over a period of weeks or even months? I don't think so, but not positive.

Sure you can, in theory but to do it legally it would be a lot of work. Progressive programs, really intended for commercial operators, require a lot of manual writing and paperwork. The basic rules are covered in FAR 91.409 (d).


John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

 

[L.Adamson]

Correct, but can you spread the "inspection" task out over a period of weeks or even months? I don't think so, but not positive.

Jeeze.............. I hope so. I started in July, and am still not done. A deer versus motorcycle accident got in the way of things. But I might finish by next month..

Of course, the plane hasn't flown during this time, either.

L.Adamson --- RV6A

 

[apkp777]

Jeeze.............. I hope so. I started in July, and am still not done. A deer versus motorcycle accident got in the way of things. But I might finish by next month..

Of course, the plane hasn't flown during this time, either.

L.Adamson --- RV6A

Yikes! I hope you are all right.

Personally, I have no trouble with doing a "unofficial progressive" with my own plane. I don't think I will do that, but I am curious what the "official" FAA position is regarding starting an inspection and finishing it weeks or months later.

 

[Toobuilder]

I've been working on the -8 for about 9 months now... When it flies, it will have among other logbook entries, a "fresh" condition inspection.
...and I buttoned up the tail and wings quite a while ago.

 

[L.Adamson]

Yikes! I hope you are all right.

A little thread drift...

I'm getting better now. But wasn't then, as it broke all ribs on the left side, the collar bone & shoulder blade. Good thing I had a helmet on that afternoon, as it was 60 mph. My heavy 1520 cc Honda Valkyrie was totaled with $13000+ damage. It's been a weird year. In January, I dumped a ladder & broke my pelvis & wrist. That got me two stainless steel plates. I now have a titanium plate for the collar bone. Do you believe in "threes"? Anybody want to go flying with me?

L.Adamson --- RV6A

 

[RV6_flyer]

Why not annual your plane when the oil change is due? Of course not to exceed 12 calender months, but you can always do it earlier.

Tony:

Sounds like you do the same thing I am doing.

I try to time the oil change for when the condition inspection is due. The condition inspection typically is when the oil needs changed before the end of the month that the Condition Inspection is required. Yes it could be a month early but so far, I have needed an oil change before my annual trip to AirVenture and my Condition Inspection is due the end of the month. Very convenient for me to do the Inspection and oil change right before my biggest trip each year. Typically I put 35 to 40 hours on the airplane during the single trip that I take at AirVenture time.

As you say, you do not need to wait 12 months to do the once a year Condition Inspection. You can do it at any time after it was recorded in the log but it must be done before 12-calendar months have passed.

 

[jetjok]

All the quotes of the FAR's are not applicable to Tonny, as his plane is based in Belgium.
If the procedures that you propose meet the Belgian regulations, then I say fly on.