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Alternator Field 5 Amp Breaker/Fuse?

RudiGreyling

Well Known Member
Hi Guys,

The Aeroelectric is such a proponent of Autocar Fuses instead of breakers because if it trips he says you should not attempt to put it back on while in the air, hence fuses makes sense...but in his diagrams he still adds a 5 amp breaker (RED) to alternator field instead of (BLUE) Fuses.?

WHY??? What am I missing???

alt_field_wire.gif


Thanks
Rudi
 
Overvoltage Protection

The short answer is that the Crowbar overvoltage protection system that detects OV is designed to then ground the circuit causing a huge current draw that then trips the breaker. The Plane Power internally regulated alternator uses the same breaker setup as part of their OV protection.

He discusses it in detail in the 'Connection and it is one of the only places he recommends a breaker over a fuse. If you're using a backup alternator w/OV protection he has a similar setup with breaker.

I'm doing a Z-11 system and that will be my only breaker.

Hope this abbreviated explanation helps.

George
 
Fuse & Switch

Hi Rudi
Another thought (ie mine) if you have a need to disconnect the alt.feed you would most likely not be able to get to the fuse . I will use a fuse with the crowbar and have a switch so that i can manually make the disconnect if needed
 
The short answer is that the Crowbar overvoltage protection system that detects OV is designed to then ground the circuit causing a huge current draw that then trips the breaker. The Plane Power internally regulated alternator uses the same breaker setup as part of their OV protection.
He discusses it in detail in the 'Connection and it is one of the only places he recommends a breaker over a fuse. If you're using a backup alternator w/OV protection he has a similar setup with breaker.

I'm doing a Z-11 system and that will be my only breaker.

Hope this abbreviated explanation helps.

George


Hi George, thanks,

I have a PlanePower altenator, and I see they also has this breaker. But would one reset this breaker 'in flight' after it trips, cause reseting breakers in flight could cause more harm, maybe you can explain a bit more.

Why not just replace it with a fuse and replace the fuse on the ground if it trips/burns? Sorry I don't get it, seems his logic goes in circles here?

In addition you want to take the altenator field off you can always switch it off at the toggle switch, so the breaker does not have to act as switch.

PS: ditto on the Z11 same here..

Thanks in advance.

Rudi
 
Visual Cue

For me, the breaker provides a visual cue that this is an over-voltage situation. When I see the low voltage light flashing and the field breaker open, that indicates an over voltage problem rather than a low voltage problem (only the low voltage light is flashing). Although, you could probably also discern between the two scenarios by observing your ammeter and voltmeter.
 
But would one reset this breaker 'in flight' after it trips, cause reseting breakers in flight could cause more harm, maybe you can explain a bit more.

Engaging the field circuit while the alternator is spinning at rated speed (i.e. - in flight) is hard on the alternator and even harder on the regulator and (my opinion only) should not be done on a regular or casual basis. IF you have a problem, however - having the option to do so is nice. Suppose you had a OV condition that trips the alternator offline and you are IMC or VFR-on-top and your battery is draining pretty bad before you can get down - I'll take a possible OV condition in that scenario over dead screens, and reengage the alternator field. If the battery is low already it will absorb a good deal of the excess current, dropping the voltage and protecting the avionics to a degree. As the charge state of the battery comes up the OV will trip out the alt field again when the voltage rises beyond the set point of the crow bar, but you've gained some battery charge in the process. Lather, rinse, repeat, and fly the airplane. You may fry the regulator (which was suspect already by default of your situation) and you won't do the battery any favors with the high current charge/discharge cycles - but you'll keep your avionics up and give yourself a chance to get down safely.

When your keister is on the line, any and all parts are expendable on the way to the threshold.
 
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Inconsistent Aeroelectric?

Hi Guys,

The Aeroelectric is such a proponent of Autocar Fuses instead of breakers because if it trips he says you should not attempt to put it back on while in the air, hence fuses makes sense...but in his diagrams he still adds a 5 amp breaker (RED) to alternator field instead of (BLUE) Fuses.?

WHY??? What am I missing??? Thanks Rudi
Bob talks in absolutes. When there is over lap or preference, it gets a little confusing. Remember some of Bob's ideas are more in the preference area than technically necessary.

The main reason for the ALT CB is when using a "crow-bar" or B & C regulator, which has a crow bar in it. The CB is an integral part of the "crow-bar system", an over voltage protection device as you know. The crow bar works by dead shorting the CB and tripping it. The Plane power alternator that I recommend, also uses or needs a CB. You could still use a fuse from any CB, however, a CB makes more sense, if you plan on occasionally tripping circuit "normally". (read on)

Here is my interpretation of Bob's CB/Fuse philosophy.

Since the OV "crow bar" might trip "accidentally", the ability to reset it, is desirable; the CB is obviously more desirable than a fuse for something you expect to normally trip on occasion. Bob denies the crow-bar is finicky or subject to nuisance trips. OK? If its true, it never tripped unless, than you could use a fuse, right? :rolleyes: Well the crow-bar is not that stable. There are other ways to protect from OV, and this is one that Bob likes, and it needs a CB to work.

In general his "logic" or philosophy on "fused" items, is you can live with out them or should if it blows, with proper design of your system. In most production planes (read all) only CB's are used or resettable thermal current limiting devices. Bob is right, fuse are cheap, simple, light and work to protect the wires as good as any CB. The down side is you have to carry extra fuses and it's difficult to fix or re-set in flight.

However the latter issue, resetting in flight, is moot in Bob's opinion. He proposes you don't want to replace a fuse, ever, until you land. Obviously if a CB pops, you might consider not resetting it, like if you smell something. At least you let a CB cool and only allow one reset. So bottom line, if a fuse blows it's OK to leave it blown till you land since you don't need the device and it might harm something to reset that circuit, in the scenario in his mind.

(IMHO, for heavy current items like gear retraction motors, CB's are generally preferred. A electric motor can have a transient overload and be fine. So CB reset is hand.)

The Alternator is a little different? You could use a fuse. Bob makes grand statements of philosophy or "Bob rules", but than it "appears" he contradicts himself or changes the philosophy to fit his current opinion. That is not a criticism, we all move the goal post sometimes. However if you think you can live with out your alternator, say fly on battery power, than the fuse on the ALT is not critical. You could sub in a fuse for simplicity and less cost/weight. If you have a stock internal voltage regulated alterantor the CB on the "IGN" lead is even less useful. The current is like 0.10 amps or less.

If you are using an internally regulated alterantor than the fuse can be say 0.5 or 1 amp since the "IGN" lead is only a 'signal' to wake up or sleep the alternator, not a "field wire" or power to the voltage regulator. All the power goes through the b-lead. If you are using a Plane Power, than use a 5 amp (or what ever size) CB they suggest, since that is also a "crow bar" type CB popper as well. As you might know a crow-bar dead shorts the CB to trip it, removing power to the regulator, which removers power to the the alternator "Field", which de-energizes the alternator, if its miss behaving.

Bottom line: Bob's way is not the only way or best way, just his way which is totally fine. Some times its over kill. Some times the reasons he gives are opposed to other opinions (but there is always a justification). It's just not that important, and if you follow his philosophy you will be ok, albeit may be on the overkill side. The only thing I really think is wrong is putting a crow bar & over voltage relay on the b-lead of a internally regulated alternator. That is heavy and a Jury Rig. It also will damage the alternator in the event of a nuisance trip. If you are worried about your internally regulated alterantor (and you will be if you believe everything Bob says, which he does not have proof of) than get a Plane Power unit. Also good is B&C alterantor with an external regulator, but I would get a Transpo V1200 regulator not a B&C voltage regulator. The Transpo V1200 uses solid state OV protection and not a CB tripper crow bar. It also cost 1/3rd or 1/4th the cost of B&C voltage regulator price.
 
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What they said...

Hi George, thanks,

I have a PlanePower altenator, and I see they also has this breaker. But would one reset this breaker 'in flight' after it trips, cause reseting breakers in flight could cause more harm, maybe you can explain a bit more.

Why not just replace it with a fuse and replace the fuse on the ground if it trips/burns? Sorry I don't get it, seems his logic goes in circles here?

In addition you want to take the altenator field off you can always switch it off at the toggle switch, so the breaker does not have to act as switch.

PS: ditto on the Z11 same here..

Thanks in advance.

Rudi

Rudi,

I can't do any better at explaining it than the others have. Thanks guys, I am once again in awe of how much "heavy lifting" analysis gets done by others here that I get to benefit from :)

For me, the downside of $20 or so for the breaker is small and minor, and the upside of complying with the installation instructions from Plane Power is small and minor as well. As to resetting it in flight, it would very much depend on circumstances, as has been pointed out, but since there is upside potential there, and no downside, the balance is tipped. It's a no brainer to me, put in the breaker and build on.

George
Standing on the shoulders of giants to build a little airplane.
 
YEP

To expand a bit on what George said------

The crowbar trip is triggered by a formula of voltage over a set time.

That time is really short------measured in milliseconds. But, to protect the rest of the system, it needs to be fast enough to trip first.

Problem is, there are a number of conditions where an intermittent (transient) condition can trip the crowbar, so it is nice to be able to reset the breaker, and see if conditions are now stable enough for the system to function.

If it trips again immediately after reseting-----you have a problem.
 
Hi Guys,

Thanks for the detailed explenation.
I will put it in, and it will be the only breaker in my VFR plane.

Regards
rudi
 
Hi Guys,

The Aeroelectric is such a proponent of Autocar Fuses instead of breakers because if it trips he says you should not attempt to put it back on while in the air, hence fuses makes sense...but in his diagrams he still adds a 5 amp breaker (RED) to alternator field instead of (BLUE) Fuses.?

WHY??? What am I missing???

[image snipped for brevity]

Thanks
Rudi

I noticed this thread the other day and I was wanting to reply sooner, but I was a bit too occupied.

Likewise, I am currently studying this very issue myself and there are a some points that I would like to toss in. (However, I have not actually done this work yet, so if there is someone out there who knows better, then I request that they speak up.)

Anyway ...

First of all, one may consider the diagram to be a bit out of date. Please note that it shows,
a separate voltage regulator,
a separate over-voltage crowbar,
and a separate low voltage alarm.

However, the B&C company now sells the "LR3C" unit which is a combination voltage regulator, an over-voltage crowbar, and a low voltage alarm. I plan to put one LR3C in my RV-8 as opposed to three separate components, therefore the diagram needs to be modified a bit.

Second of all, as for using a Field Circuit Breaker as opposed to a Field Fuse I can see three reasons why Bob would recommend this:

One, when doing an over voltage test (which should be done at least every Annual), a Breaker will be tripped instead of a Fuse being blown; and it is much easier to re-set a tripped breaker instead of replacing a blown fuse.
Two, if one is flying, and there is Nuisance Trip (which could be quite critical if it occurred during final approach in IMC), then it is much easier to re-set a tripped breaker instead of trying to replace a blown fuse while in flight.
Third, should a condition develop either in-flight, or on the ground, that requires battery only operation, then one can quickly and efficiently set that condition by Pulling a Breaker instead of Removing a Fuse.

I hope this helps!
 
Different versions

.......
First of all, one may consider the diagram to be a bit out of date. Please note that it shows,
a separate voltage regulator,
a separate over-voltage crowbar,
and a separate low voltage alarm.
.....

But, if you go back a few more revisions to the Z-11 diagram, you get...

a separate voltage regulator,
a separate over-voltage crowbar

This is the version I am going with, using a Vans external regulator.

I believe most EFIS/EMS units can perform both an over- and under- voltage alarm function, so why duplicate?

The diagram you need depends somewhat on the other items in the mix. I don't think one is really more "out of date" than another...:)... it depends on your configuration.

gil A
 
I've reviewed several threads on "Alt Field" issues...I'll use this one to pose my ??

Engaging the field circuit while the alternator is spinning at rated speed (i.e. - in flight) is hard on the alternator and even harder on the regulator and (my opinion only) should not be done on a regular or casual basis. IF you have a problem, however - having the option to do so is nice. Suppose you had a OV condition that trips the alternator offline and you are IMC or VFR-on-top and your battery is draining pretty bad before you can get down - I'll take a possible OV condition in that scenario over dead screens, and reengage the alternator field. If the battery is low already it will absorb a good deal of the excess current, dropping the voltage and protecting the avionics to a degree. As the charge state of the battery comes up the OV will trip out the alt field again when the voltage rises beyond the set point of the crow bar, but you've gained some battery charge in the process. Lather, rinse, repeat, and fly the airplane. You may fry the regulator (which was suspect already by default of your situation) and you won't do the battery any favors with the high current charge/discharge cycles - but you'll keep your avionics up and give yourself a chance to get down safely.

When your keister is on the line, any and all parts are expendable on the way to the threshold.

I've been flying my (purchased) -8A for 9 months and >80 hours...now at ~308TT.

I noticed from the outset that about half to one-third of the time, the FIELD switch (breaker) will trip some time during the runup. I spoke with the previous owner who confirmed that it did that for him as well, but only on the ground, never in flight. This has been my experience as well.

Before now I never noticed when it tripped, because I've always been looking elsewhere (tach, engine instruments, etc) and just noticed it was tripped after the runup complete, and reset it, and off we go.

Tonight I happened to notice WHEN it occurred (because I actually heard it "click" when the breaker tripped), and it was immediately upon selecting the "RIGHT" magneto. Since I caught it right away, I flipped it immediately back on, but it didn't even allow me to engage it and tripped again right away. I waited until I finished the mag check and cycled the prop, pulled the power back and reset the FIELD switch. It again did fine through the entire flight from then on.

So, my questions are these:
1. Any ideas why this is happening on such a regular basis? The fact that I can't find a thread with anyone reporting this issue makes me think that obviously this should not be occurring.
2 Is this situation (reengaging the alternator field with the engine running) harmful to my alternator, as it seems many say it may be from reading these various posts/threads?

Thanks in advance...Can hardly wait to see many of you next week at OSH!!!!
 
What does your bus voltage do when you test the mag?
The only power on the ignition switch is power going to your start solenoid. Grounding the mag should not create a noise issue. Is the starter solenoid power fused? If you are shorting out the solenoid, I would think the fuse should blow before anything else. I have a 7A fuse on mine.
After re-reading your post, I think it is the switch or the switch wiring.

There are many opinions on when to cycle the alternator field. I don't like it, but, if you have to, you have to. Plane power says no problem with their alternator. Other say that new avionics will withstand the spike. Why take the chance if you don't have to.

Check switch wiring
replace switch
replace breaker
 
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Not buyin' it.

I like breakers. Never seen a jet full of fuses, I guess they must all be building them "wrong". Every certified aircraft I've ever seen, which is most of them, has a field switch. If built after 1966, it also has a field BREAKER. Perhaps I'm out of the "cool loop", or maybe there have been new revelations in the field of electrons, but your not gonna see me put a bunch of ATO fuses in my airplane. Too cheesy for me. When they pop, I wanna see it. I've also never read an operating manual for a certified plane that says not to cycle the field switch while running. In fact, Cessna manuals tell you to cycle the alt side of the master if you lose alternator. Guess they're wrong too.
 
I like breakers. Never seen a jet full of fuses, I guess they must all be building them "wrong". Every certified aircraft I've ever seen, which is most of them, has a field switch. If built after 1966, it also has a field BREAKER. Perhaps I'm out of the "cool loop", or maybe there have been new revelations in the field of electrons, but your not gonna see me put a bunch of ATO fuses in my airplane. Too cheesy for me. When they pop, I wanna see it. I've also never read an operating manual for a certified plane that says not to cycle the field switch while running. In fact, Cessna manuals tell you to cycle the alt side of the master if you lose alternator. Guess they're wrong too.

If you like breakers, by all means use them - I dont think anybody, including Nuckolls, ever said there was anything WRONG with them. Nuckolls suggests fuses for most applications because they are inexpensive, reliable, and quick to install - a great value. We arent flying jet superliners here.

Seeing a tripped breaker isnt going to help you fix an electrical problem, nor should folks be focused on fixing such things while flying.

my 2 cents...
erich
 
Fuses and breakers.....

OK, Ok, I have fuses and breakers!

On my electronic ignition, (for example) I have breakers. This allows me to switch off one of the ignitions, if I find out that it is doing more worse than good and I wil be able to push it back in, if it tripped, even if it only stays in for 10 secs. I may have "power" again for 10 secs., and again , and again..........

The landing lights (for example) are on fuses, not fatal and can be looked at, after landing. Also no real reason why they would trip anyway!

Regards, Tonny.
 
Tonight I happened to notice WHEN it occurred (because I actually heard it "click" when the breaker tripped), and it was immediately upon selecting the "RIGHT" magneto.

Strange but interesting. Need more info Troy.

You have an alternator with an internal voltage regulator, or with a separate external voltage regulator?

You have a rotary key switch (off-left-right-both-start) or individual mag switches? If individual switches, are they plain SPST or some sort of combination switch?
 
Strange but interesting. Need more info Troy.

You have an alternator with an internal voltage regulator, or with a separate external voltage regulator?

You have a rotary key switch (off-left-right-both-start) or individual mag switches? If individual switches, are they plain SPST or some sort of combination switch?

I have a rotary key switch. I need to go look through the books or pull the cowling to see what kind of alternator I have since I didn't build it.

I will have to look at what happens to the voltage and amperage the next several times I do the runup.
 
If you like breakers, by all means use them - I dont think anybody, including Nuckolls, ever said there was anything WRONG with them. Nuckolls suggests fuses for most applications because they are inexpensive, reliable, and quick to install - a great value. We arent flying jet superliners here.

Seeing a tripped breaker isnt going to help you fix an electrical problem, nor should folks be focused on fixing such things while flying.
Actually, as a working A&P/IA, a tripped breaker has helped find problems countless times. As for fuses being reliable? I dunno, I've seen lots of old ones with corrosion that didn't make good contact. To be fair though, I once spent 2 days & 8 hrs of shop time on a G2 with a bad anti-skid breaker. It would show correct voltage on all pins, but didn't show the problem until I jumped the breaker with a lightbulb. No glow, duh! As far as "jet superliners" goes, I think a 200mph airplane deserves a quality electrical system. I quite often will yank a dozen or more breakers while doing maintenance for assorted reasons, one of which is to save battery while I'm farting with something else. Inexpensive, sure. Great value? Pretty small bucks when considering the cost of the rest of the plane. It's not like the $100 bucks you save will buy anything worthwhile. Why not use lampcord for wiring while you're at it? It's cheap and has "great value".
P.S. I'm really just having fun "poking" at y'all.
 
Troy,

Need more detail of the wiring around the mag switch, the master and the over voltage detection/trip circuit.

The alternator field is likely to be receive its power from the main bus via the breaker, then the master switch alternator 'side' and finally to the voltage regulator. The regulator output connects to the the alternator field. It is immaterial if the alternator is internally or externally regulated.

This is a long shot but I am guessing that the over-volt circuit is wired on the back of the master switch between the alternator feed on the alternator side of the master and the ground on the master solenoid side.

Now if the ground wire to the mag switches happens to share the ground wire on the master switch (since they are likely to be physically close to each other) then the p-lead 'noise' superimposed on the ground (that would be the ground side of the over-volt circuit) may be causing the ov circuit to trip.

If this is the case then the fix would be to isolate the ground paths for the over volt circuit and the p-lead. Ie install a separate ground from the mag switch to the central ground stud.

Just a guess though...

Doug Gray
 
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Also, this just makes me feel good.

Hmmm....somewhere between $225 and $300 worth of Klixons to cover just 8 circuits, with an installed weight measured in pounds, exposed buss bars, and lost panel space.

Here are up to 24 circuits (meaning spares for later, no mods required) on a hinged dropdown, fully accessible in flight. Lightweight, no lost panel space, and less bare conductor exposure. You can look at power in/out in seconds using an ordinary test light. You can change protection level (amps) in seconds with a fuse swap. Labeling costs pennies; a printed strip and Pliobond. Each 12 circuit block costs less than a single breaker, fast-ons included.

Both the primary flight instruments and VFR nav source have isolated backup batteries....no need for resets.

 
Dang it Dan, quit poppin my bubble. Anyway, the 7277's are $20 apiece and I like exposed busses. Where's your sense of adventure?
 
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