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Aircraft Registration Question

bullojm1

bullojm1

Well Known Member
I am in the process of registering my RV with the FAA. I have the hardcopy of the Aircraft Registration Information form (form 8050-1) and have the following questions:

1) Under "Aircraft Manufacturer and Model" would I put my "Bullock, Joseph M. Bullock RV-7" since "Bullock, Joseph M" is the manufacturer (me) and "Bullock RV-7" is the model?

2) Under the signature section, would TITLE just be "Owner"?

Thanks for any advice/input!
 
Mike,

I believe (and others may jump in here to correct if necessary) that you can put most anything in those spaces you want. I called myself the manufacturer and just used RV-9A as the model, but you could also use "spaceship spiff 17" if you really wanted to (probably something with RV and 7 is more useful). I used *owner" in the "title" space just to keep the beancounters happy that there was *something* in the blank space. In any event, that all went through the FAA without a hitch.

greg
 
bullojm1 said:
I am in the process of registering my RV with the FAA. I have the hardcopy of the Aircraft Registration Information form (form 8050-1) and have the following questions:

1) Under "Aircraft Manufacturer and Model" would I put my "Bullock, Joseph M. Bullock RV-7" since "Bullock, Joseph M" is the manufacturer (me) and "Bullock RV-7" is the model?

2) Under the signature section, would TITLE just be "Owner"?

Thanks for any advice/input!
Click to expand...

Mike, be sure whatever you put in those fields match EXACTLY the same fields on your data plate.


Enjoy your new plane! :)
 
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YOU, the builder will be the manufacturer of any RV except for the RV-12 being registered as an E-LSA.
 
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Yeah, I screwed that up -- even after the DAR had instructed me that the name on the data plate had to match EXACTLY what was on the registration. Figuring that he meant that I couldn't use "Don" instead of "Donald", I had the data plate read "Donald E. McNamara" instead of the way it read on the registration -- "McNamara, Donald E."

Oops.

Inspection day comes around and the first thing the DAR noticed was the difference. He said that he couldn't sign it off unless they matched exactly. However, I got a new data plate made immediately and he was satisfied.

Whatever you put down, make sure that it matches. EXACTLY! :rolleyes:
 
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Van's Aircraft can only be listed as "manufacturer" if registering the aircraft as an E-LSA.
 
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The MANUFACTURER is the name of the BUILDER not the name of the designer for all Amateur Built Experimental Aircraft. Yes I have seen some where the model is Vans RV-X.

The DATA PLATE should have the MANUFACTURER listed as the BUILDER name exactly as it appears on the REGISTRATION. (8050-3). Yes it should be ok to list it first name last name but if the DAR or ASI has not been to a recurrent training recently, they may say EXACTLY as it is on the 8050-3.
 
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Keep in mind, you can have the manufacturer listed as an LLC or a corportation. I will admit that the only experimental aircraft I have seen this is on the EPIC aircraft. Everyone that I have worked on, the data plate listed, Manufacturer - so and so LLC. It was ok'd by the FAA without a hitch.

I asked him about this and he said that by the company being the manufacturer of the aircraft, when he sells the plane, he will just sell the company and the aircraft will be an assest of said company. He claims that buy having everything under an LLC, he is not responsable for the aircraft after it is sold due to it being a company asset and his name not being on any of the paperwork.

Not trying to steal the thread or start an arguement. I'm just giving you an example of what I have seen on aircraft.
 
MNAv8or said:
Keep in mind, you can have the manufacturer listed as an LLC or a corportation. I will admit that the only experimental aircraft I have seen this is on the EPIC aircraft. Everyone that I have worked on, the data plate listed, Manufacturer - so and so LLC. It was ok'd by the FAA without a hitch.

I asked him about this and he said that by the company being the manufacturer of the aircraft, when he sells the plane, he will just sell the company and the aircraft will be an assest of said company. He claims that buy having everything under an LLC, he is not responsable for the aircraft after it is sold due to it being a company asset and his name not being on any of the paperwork.

Not trying to steal the thread or start an arguement. I'm just giving you an example of what I have seen on aircraft.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that the DAR can turn down an experimental as amateur built if it lists a non-person entity as the builder. I have done so. Yes I refused to do the inspection on an airplane that did not list a person as the builder.

I am not a lawyer but believe that the LLC will NOT get the actual person(s) that built the airplane off the record. The 8130-12 MUST list the person(s) that build the airplane and it is recorded in the Airworthiness File in Oklahoma City with the Registration.

At the present time, we have a 51% rule for amateur built experimental aircraft so that an individual or individuals can build and fly an airplane. IF an LLC or corporation builds the airplane, I do not believe that is with the spirit or intent of the present regulation that allows us to build our airplanes. I am not a lawyer but as a DAR I do not do airworthiness inspection on these kinds of airplanes.
 
RV6_flyer said:
Keep in mind that the DAR can turn down an experimental as amateur built if it lists a non-person entity as the builder. I have done so. Yes I refused to do the inspection on an airplane that did not list a person as the builder.

I am not a lawyer but believe that the LLC will NOT get the actual person(s) that built the airplane off the record. The 8130-12 MUST list the person(s) that build the airplane and it is recorded in the Airworthiness File in Oklahoma City with the Registration.

At the present time, we have a 51% rule for amateur built experimental aircraft so that an individual or individuals can build and fly an airplane. IF an LLC or corporation builds the airplane, I do not believe that is with the spirit or intent of the present regulation that allows us to build our airplanes. I am not a lawyer but as a DAR I do not do airworthiness inspection on these kinds of airplanes.
Click to expand...

He had this same issue with his airplane when he tried to get it inspected. He just kept going through DAR's until he found one that would sign it off. I have done the same thing when it comes to getting field approvals and different FSDO's. Some would not sign it off and others would. This is a common occurance in the industry.

On the 8130-12 form where you say you must list the person(s) that build the aircraft. If you bought a kit (lets say Fuse kit) from someone else who had started to build it, would you have to list their name on the form as one of the builders of the kit or is the form just for the finished product?

I don't think the LLC option really violates the rules. If you have 4 guys that want to build an RV or any other experimental together, couldn't they form a corporation? I mean as long as they are building the aircraft for education? Has anyone built an aircraft with someone else that you know of being a DAR and how did they handle it?

I wasn't trying to start an arguement with my origional post. I was just giving an option that I have seen happen more then once. I didn't say it was the right thing to do, just something I have seen.
 
MNAv8or said:
On the 8130-12 form where you say you must list the person(s) that build the aircraft. If you bought a kit (lets say Fuse kit) from someone else who had started to build it, would you have to list their name on the form as one of the builders of the kit or is the form just for the finished product?
Click to expand...

List all the names of everyone that worked on it.

MNAv8or said:
Has anyone built an aircraft with someone else that you know of being a DAR and how did they handle it?
Click to expand...

The OWNER can register and request the Airworthiness Certificate even if they did not build 51%. List the INDIVIDUALS on the 8130-12 that built the 51%+ for education and recreation. Note that the 51% CANNOT be PAID builders.

Have done several aircraft where the person that finished it was NOT the person that started it. The person completing 8130-6 was the OWNER and the builder was a different name that did most of the building. The owner just put the finishing touches on the airplane to get it ready to fly. It several cases the builders ESTATE sold the project to the owner that finished it.
 
Well, sometimes some things are not easy... especially for me. I sent in the FAA AC Form 8050-1 registration with " FREY RV-7A" in the Aircraft Manufacturer and Model box.

I received my AC Form 8050-3 Certificate of Aircraft Registration with
"Frey Lawrence R Vans RV-7A" in the Manufacturer and Manufacturers Designation Of Aircraft" box.

I called OK City and said, hey, that's not what is on my data plate, and they said it's a Van's you will have to talk with your FSDO if you want something else on the data plate.

What? Anyone else have this problem? Or, what did I do wrong?

Larry
 
That answer is wrong. You need to call back and talk to a supervisor. An amateur built aircraft can be called anything you want as far as "model" goes. Mine is an A&M-6. It's the 6th airplane built by Ann & Mel.
 
As an update, I sent an email to the FAA this morning and recieved the following reply this afternoon, very timely.

"There is no Airworthiness Application in the aircraft file which states that the make and model is Frey RV-7A. Information is only input from an Application properly completed by an Inspector.

The Aircraft Registration Branch is only a repository for airworthiness information. If the appropriate information is forwarded to us from the field, it will be input in the database and added to the aircraft record; if the information is not sent to us, it will not appear in the database or on the aircraft record.

We will add the information upon receipt of a properly completed Airworthiness Application.

The Support Section of the Aircraft Registration Branch handles this information. If you have additional questions, please contact the Support Section directly at 405-954-4206 or 866-704-4715. There are Legal Instruments Examiners on duty from 7:30 a.m. to 3:30 p.m. CST to answer your questions. cs"

This seems to make sense, and I guess I will get a new Registration form for display in the Aircraft after the fact, but will a DAR accept the discrepency between the current Registration form and the data plate?

Larry
 
lrfrey said:
As an update, I sent an email to the FAA this morning and recieved the following reply this afternoon, very timely.

"There is no Airworthiness Application in the aircraft file which states that the make and model is Frey RV-7A. Information is only input from an Application properly completed by an Inspector.

The Aircraft Registration Branch is only a repository for airworthiness information. If the appropriate information is forwarded to us from the field, it will be input in the database and added to the aircraft record; if the information is not sent to us, it will not appear in the database or on the aircraft record.

We will add the information upon receipt of a properly completed Airworthiness Application.

The Support Section of the Aircraft Registration Branch handles this information. If you have additional questions, please contact the Support Section directly at 405-954-4206 or 866-704-4715. There are Legal Instruments Examiners on duty from 7:30 a.m. to 3:30 p.m. CST to answer your questions. cs"

This seems to make sense, and I guess I will get a new Registration form for display in the Aircraft after the fact, but will a DAR accept the discrepency between the current Registration form and the data plate?

Larry
Click to expand...
Absolutely not. The airworthiness application (8130-6) and the data plate must match the registration exactly or the DAR cannot accept it.
 
Well, I guess you can call this a self inflicted wound (not surprised):eek:.

I called the FAA Registration office again this morning and spoke to a very polite and helpful young lady. She explained that although I had stated Frey RV-7A on the Registration Application, I had inadvertantly stated Van's RV-7A on the Affidavid of Ownership, and that is where they take the designation from.

An Ammendment to the Affidavit of Ownership request and $5 should fix the problem. I hope. Thanks Mel.
Larry
 
lrfrey said:
Well, I guess you can call this a self inflicted wound (not surprised):eek:.

I called the FAA Registration office again this morning and spoke to a very polite and helpful young lady. She explained that although I had stated Frey RV-7A on the Registration Application, I had inadvertantly stated Van's RV-7A on the Affidavid of Ownership, and that is where they take the designation from.

An Ammendment to the Affidavit of Ownership request and $5 should fix the problem. I hope. Thanks Mel.
Larry
Click to expand...

And if worse goes to worse, you have a new data plate made. That's what I had to do. The DAR requested a picture of the new plate installed on the plane by E-mail. My first and last names were reversed. The plate printer said that was normal, but the DAR didn't go for it.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
8050-1

Old thread. Seemed appropriate
Q1. The form 3) Aircraft Model. I asume this can be anything. RV-7A?
Q2. Second page 14) through 26). Leave blank?
 
Just want to comment on this.

The advisory circular that the DAR refers to is very specific in that it states you must name a person as the builder. Keep in mind, advisory circulars are not regulatory. However the FAR’s will always take priority over advisory circular.
In this case, referring to CFR part 1section 1 definitions, according to the FAR regulation a person is defined as “ Person means an individual, firm, partnership, corporation, company, association, joint-stock association, or governmental entity. It includes a trustee, receiver, assignee, or similar representative of any of them.”

So yes, it is perfectly acceptable and within guidance to list the builder as an LLC or Corporation.

I actually had to educate my DAR on this issue, as he initially said it wasn’t allowable to list the builder as an LLC. After showing him the definition of a person as defined by the regulations, He then allowed it and issued the airworthiness certificate.

RV6_flyer said:
Keep in mind that the DAR can turn down an experimental as amateur built if it lists a non-person entity as the builder. I have done so. Yes I refused to do the inspection on an airplane that did not list a person as the builder.

I am not a lawyer but believe that the LLC will NOT get the actual person(s) that built the airplane off the record. The 8130-12 MUST list the person(s) that build the airplane and it is recorded in the Airworthiness File in Oklahoma City with the Registration.

At the present time, we have a 51% rule for amateur built experimental aircraft so that an individual or individuals can build and fly an airplane. IF an LLC or corporation builds the airplane, I do not believe that is with the spirit or intent of the present regulation that allows us to build our airplanes. I am not a lawyer but as a DAR I do not do airworthiness inspection on these kinds of airplanes.
Click to expand...
 
Questions

I think I found the correct answers after some Google searching. In any case, "The Check's in the Mail" along with my registration packet. <Fingers crossed>
 
wirejock said:
Old thread. Seemed appropriate
Q1. The form 3) Aircraft Model. I asume this can be anything. RV-7A?
Q2. Second page 14) through 26). Leave blank?
Click to expand...

I just did mine and didn't even include the 2nd page seeing I'm a sole owner.
Right above section 13 it says if executed for co-ownership all applicants must sign and to use the next page for that.
 
Registration

AdamB said:
I just did mine and didn't even include the 2nd page seeing I'm a sole owner.
Right above section 13 it says if executed for co-ownership all applicants must sign and to use the next page for that.
Click to expand...

I missed that. Oops. Oh Bother!
Hopefully they won't get their $&?#@!s in a wad.
 
wirejock said:
I missed that. Oops. Oh Bother!
Hopefully they won't get their $&?#@!s in a wad.
Click to expand...

Tracking of my package showed it arrived on a Sat. By the following Weds I noticed they cashed my check and the N number was already showing up online as assigned with my info. Haven’t gotten the actual paperwork back yet. So you should be fine. They were way faster than I expected.
 
With all this talk about registration and data plates, remember, you only need to have 3 things on your Aircraft Data Plate, according to FAR 45.13:

(1) Builder's name.

(2) Model designation. (ie. RV6, or whatever you want)

(3) Builder's serial number.

I didn’t know this, and have way too much info on mine.
 
Exactly

My data plate (a $5 medical dog tag):
 

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rvbuilder2002 said:
Since the letters are stamped is your data tag made out of aluminum by chance?
If so, then it does not meet the material requirement of being "fire proof".
Click to expand...

Don't know about the one featured here, but I used a "Dog Tag" manufacturer to do the data plate on my current project, and mine IS stainless. They ARE available.
 
Splitting hairs but this is the FAA we are dealing with

Applicant Box #6 is the only place it asks for Last, First and MI.

QUESTION #1....
If box #6 has PUBLIC, JOHN Q. in it, does it matter if manufacturer box #2 has PUBLIC, JOHN Q. or JOHN Q. PUBLIC or could the "Q" be delete and the manufacturer be just JOHN PUBLIC?

QUESTION #2....
Box 13 for signatures asks for name of applicant. Should the applicant's name be entered first, mi, last since that's the way it get's signed or the same as in box #6?
 
He would be wrong

It's amazing how many builders of EAB aircraft believe this sort of nonsense. Depending on the circumstances, LLCs can have their place in the airplane ownership world, and can accomplish useful goals, but they aren't a get-out-of-jail-free ticket. At least not in the US.

Here's a way he can test this claim: have him try to obtain insurance to cover him if somebody gets injured in/by the aircraft and sues him, personally, for building it badly. Such insurance should be really cheap and readily available, right? Since the LLC means he's magically not responsible? :)

MNAv8or said:
He claims that buy having everything under an LLC, he is not responsable for the aircraft after it is sold due to it being a company asset and his name not being on any of the paperwork.
Click to expand...
 
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bonefishdave said:
Just want to comment on this.

The advisory circular that the DAR refers to is very specific in that it states you must name a person as the builder. Keep in mind, advisory circulars are not regulatory. However the FAR’s will always take priority over advisory circular.
In this case, referring to CFR part 1section 1 definitions, according to the FAR regulation a person is defined as “ Person means an individual, firm, partnership, corporation, company, association, joint-stock association, or governmental entity. It includes a trustee, receiver, assignee, or similar representative of any of them.”

So yes, it is perfectly acceptable and within guidance to list the builder as an LLC or Corporation.

I actually had to educate my DAR on this issue, as he initially said it wasn’t allowable to list the builder as an LLC. After showing him the definition of a person as defined by the regulations, He then allowed it and issued the airworthiness certificate.
Click to expand...

Is there any kind of training that people have to go through to become a DAR? Because it sure seems like there are way too many who don't seem to know the rules, so either there is no training or exam or anything, or it's really not being done well to have so many stories like this that keep coming up.

Companies, corporations, etc., have been legal "persons" since forever. I thought this was common knowledge. Add to that the FAA definition *in the first section* of the FARs, and I'd expect anyone doing any sort of work whatsoever with registrations and other paperwork to know this.
 
RV7A Flyer said:
Is there any kind of training that people have to go through to become a DAR? Because it sure seems like there are way too many who don't seem to know the rules, so either there is no training or exam or anything, or it's really not being done well to have so many stories like this that keep coming up.
Click to expand...

Yes, there is - and I am going through it right now. But you know what they say….”send them to school, buy ‘em books, and what do they do? Eat the covers….”

Many DAR’s are out there that just do what they want - their FSDO or MDO supervisors et them, or aren’t paying attention, or don’t know the rules themselves…. The reason that the RENO FSDO is pushing me to be a DAR is that they admit they have so many things on their plate, the inspectors don’t know the E-AB rules as well as I do.

Testing? 70% is generally passing. You know what they cal a guy who only got 70% right on his medical school exams? Doctor……. ;)

Paul
 
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