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Air Bags coming?

The NTSB can't require anything in the aviation arena. The FAA has that responsibility, and doesn't tend to jump when the NTSB yells froggie.

There are a blue million NTSB recommendations out there that the FAA has considered and not enacted. There is a 99.9% chance the airbag recommendation ends up with the same fate.
 
Sodium Azide Bags

I wish "air bags" hadn't come into popular use. The propellant is sodium azide or something similar which is a pyrotechnic device. "Air Bags" are not powered by compressed air! I surely don't want a pyrotechnic device in my cockpit. Hope the FAA (and Transport Canada) don't succumb to this dumb idea.
 
terrye said:
I wish "air bags" hadn't come into popular use. The propellant is sodium azide or something similar which is a pyrotechnic device. "Air Bags" are not powered by compressed air! I surely don't want a pyrotechnic device in my cockpit. Hope the FAA (and Transport Canada) don't succumb to this dumb idea.
Click to expand...

Exactly why I replaced the steering wheel in my car (since sold) with one that didn?t have an air bomb in the center.

The thought of having a pyrotechnic device a few inches from my face has never made me feel safe. No way would I wear a seatbelt with a built in pyrotechnic device.

Wear your seatbelts.

No way will they ever be required on old airplanes. Like transponders, not all aircraft have the required electrical system to trigger them. Also, many aircraft only have lap belts and limited hard points to add a shoulder harness.
 
If the NTSB ever came up with a way to fix stupid/poor judgment, then they would save lives. Since that is unlikely, just accept TBD deaths per year.
 
Terrye said it. I would hate to have an explosive in my plane that was not used for making my propeller turn.

Planes, boats, trains, etc. are not cars and do not operate in the same environment or under the same forces. They don?t crash the same. Planes can have multiple impacts during one accident.

Just as a scenario. Say you lose an engine and are forced to do your best to aim for the best crash site available. You are going down in the trees. You aim for the space between the trees and your wings hit the trees. But now the air bags have already gone off and you are still several hundred feet from the true impact zone. Hey, at least the air bag knocked you unconscious before the impact.:eek:

I am all for safety. But I don?t really see the advantage of an airbag over a 5-point harness in an airplane.

Planes are already expensive. Not sure adding an airbag will help any.

Then there is the whole disarming the airbag before maintenance accidents.

Well, there is my opinion. I would love to hear from someone for them in aircraft. There must be some reason the NTSB wants them in all aircraft.
 
We already have them for our ag aircraft...

...mainly the Air Tractors. They're not the airbag we're used to but instead, are connected to the shoulder harnesses behind us and inflate, tightening the harness. IIRC, they're going to be an option.

We have an Air Tractor employee on here and he'll probably chime in and set things straight.

Best,
 
I'd write the check.

I've worked with the NTSB on a few crashes, and been a sworn panel member on an NTSB hearing. Based on that, I have developed tremendous respect for the NTSB staff, the process they employ to reach conclusions and reccommendations.

The game of 'safety' is one of directional correctness combined with effacy factors. Taken to the extreme, stupid things, like the motorized seat belts of the 80's, happen. Or worse. And flying is inherently dangerous.

NTSB has data that they researched themselves. They don't guess. There is no 'just because'. All the objections I've really heard here is 'just because I say so'. The thread is filled with the common myths of SRS technology. It's a free market, and so forth, so do what you will. If SRS technologies were available for me to install today in my 9A, I'd write the check.

Just my $0.02, worth what you paid.

Rick 90432
 
As others have pointed out, it is the NTSB's job to recommend safety features like airbags. And it is the FAA's job to roll their eyes and say, "Yeah, right. Get real."

However, I think I can safely predict with some certainty that sometime in the future active restraint systems such as airbags will be required for all new type-certificated aircraft. At issue is that, plain and simple, airbags in cars work. Overall, they save lives and reduce the severity of injury. They make it practical, not just possible, for cars to be lighter and more fuel efficient while still offering good crash protection for their occupants.

I think I can equally safely predict that this requirement will not apply to existing aircraft, to aircraft being produced under current type certificates, or to experimental aircraft. The FAA has a long history of grandfathering in existing products, and I think this will be no different.

Airbag technology is being rapidly refined and extended. These days airbags built into seatbelts and interior moldings make possible substantial improvements in side impact protection. This refinement is pushing the prices of airbag systems and components down into the range where they are reasonably affordable. It is also making these systems smarter and more versatile, to the degree where retrofitting them into existing vehicles is coming into the realm of possibility.

Personally, I used to resist airbags. I, like many others, thought it was a technology I did not need. Then I had a car with an airbag, and I had to come to terms with it. Then the car posted an SRS error light, and I had to uderstand, troubleshoot, and fix it. The three subsequent cars with airbags (plural, not just for the driver) have had zero issues with their SRS systems. Finally, my wife had a head-on collision in an airbag-equipped sports car. She came away with minor injuries that I am quite sure would have devastating if not terminal were it not for the SRS system. Now I'm a believer.

Of course, airbags are not without their risks and dangers. Fortunately, these are relatively simple, and easily understood. Unfortunately, people regularly disregard them, and do so to the peril of themselves and those in their charge. Also, it is clear that airbags are not effective crash protection against a variety of impacts that are common in airplanes but virtually non-existant in cars.

For those of you who say that in the good old days of Detroit Iron you didn't need airbags, have a look at this video in which the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety stages a 40 MPH frontal offset collision between a 2009 Chevy Malibu and a 1959 Chevy Bel Air:

http://www.iihs.org/video.aspx/info/50thcrash

(For more info: http://www.iihs.org/50th/default.html)

Thanks, Bob K.
 
I'll take the NTSB's side over the FAA's 99% of the time. Look at thier mission statements.


That said, lets be honest. An RV isn't much more than a beer can with a motor (same applies to most LIGHT civil aircraft). Hitting anything solid above about 60 knots, air bag or not, is going to hurt.
 
"air bags"

This discussion is interesting to me. I approached the
PHP: 
Safe-Air, oops I don't know where I "remembered" that company! :o
Am-Safe folks at Oshkosh one year and they "stiff-armed" me with the comment, "We have no plans to sell these for use in the EXPERIMENTAL market."

They mumbled something about needing to fix and control the design configuration, so I guess I could see their point.

I still have an interest in them as a very good friend has them in his recently purchased 182.
 
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Cubcrafters offers them as an option.

Just another data point from a company I greatly respect.
 
Very interesting topic. I am learning a lot and have almost changed my mind.

I am sure the NTSB has our safety in mind. I am happy they do what they do. I am much safer because their reports have made me conscious of things to look out for. I am happy to have them around. But, even my mother was not always right in looking out for my best interests. So I am just asking questions to learn for myself, and hope they don?t mandate I get an air bag if I determine it is not in my best interests. The GA industry is dying because of liability costs and over regulation. Just my opinion.

If the air bags do tighten the seat belts as Pierre said, this this is a completely different effect than what we see in cars. This would be interesting.

Does anybody know how the G-forces in acro have any effect on the air bag sensor? How about a bad landing? Do the same forces that cause your ELT to go off deploy the air bag?

Thanks for the video Bob. The video is great to see the improvements that have been made in cars. Notice how the A-pillar completely folds in the ?59. Also the dash is crushed into the cabin. This does not happen on the ?09. I would guess the crush zones and lap belt account for a lot of the survivability of the ?09. But as was said, ?an RV isn't much more than a beer can with a motor?.

There are other ways to improve safety. The smart car has an egg shaped cabin to help with the survivability of a crash. F1 cars also have a survival pod like structure. This type of thing may be better than an air bag for a plane. Or how about HANS as used in F1? (Head and Neck Support system) But not sure I am going to wear a helmet while flying.

Guess the best thing is not to crash.

On a side note: We have AOPA states we have 600K pilots in the US but WP article said only 200K GA planes?? Must be a lot of renters, military, or commercial.
 
How many of the 600K...

...are active pilots? The license is valid until you can't pass a medical. But lots of the 600K may have stopped flying of their own volition.

LarryT
 
Good idea

Anyone that understands physics knows it's good to decrease the acceleration of an impact as much as possible. Airbags have been proven effective at accomplishing that. I actually contacted AmSafe and Van's just the other day to see if a system were available. It's not yet, but hopefully they work on it.
 
Went to an AOPA safety seminar last night and a representative from AmSafe was there. He gave a short presentation on the air bags.

Please don't throttle me if I state incorrectly as this is the best I remember it. I wasn't there for the air bag issue. Anyway he stated.

The airbags for airplanes were using compressed helium to fill.

They would be a shoulder harness mounted airbag.

They were looking into experimentals, specifically RV's. There biggest concern was air bag deploying during aerobatics. They have tested their activating sensors and deploy at 9g's consistantly so felt they would be OK. RV's would be the first of the experimentals with airbag availability.

The biggest push he felt was going to go forward by the FAA was for mandatory shoulder belts. Stated that 85% survival rate from crash with shoulder harness and only 15% survival rate for lap belt only.

Ted
 
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Ted RV8 said:
The biggest push he felt was going to go forward by the FAA was for mandatory shoulder belts. Stated that 85% survival rate from crash with shoulder harness and only 15% survival rate for lap belt only.

Ted
Click to expand...


Under what circumstances? That's a pretty bold statement that can be shot full of holes pretty quickly. (Not directed at you Ted)

I'd like to see some real numbers on fatal RV accidents, and what percentage of those could've been survivable with these. I'm betting not many...
 
GA Statistics

Those were GA statistics from the Safety Foundation.

All RV's that I know of have shoulder harness' so at least it's the higher end survival rate. That being said, it's all relative as some crashes are not survivable at all.

Ted
 
Ted,

I was at a similar seminar on Monday evening but did not have the chance to talk with the Amsafe people. I'm wondering if they gave you any indication of the pricing on these? I cannot find anything on the web.

thanks,
greg
 
I don't remember where I heard it but I believe it was $1,000.00 each.

If you go to CubCrafters website they show them as an option on their planes for $3,990.00 installed. That's for pilot and co-pilot.

Maybe Craig from Skyview Aviation can chime in here as he is listed as a Service Center contact for AmSafe.

Ted
 
AmSafe Seatbelt Airbags

Hi Guys,

Please feel free to contact me at any time if you have questions on seatbelt airbags [email protected]

Some items to consider

Please visit www.gaairbags.com to review a large amount of information.

I don't want anyone to bombard me with questions on when will the systems be released, but we are looking at the Van's RV series aircraft as the first large scale development for the experimental market. It's no secret but I cannot give you all a set date on when the kits will be completed.

Pricing is NOT set, but the range you guys can expect will be between $3,000-$4,500 for TWO systems.

Distribution has not been set. We are looking at all options.

On average it takes 9+ g's of deceleration force at a .45 second duration to set off the system. The g sensor in the EMA (Electronics Module Assembly) is looking at force and time. The EMA has a onboard battery pack (7 years on battery, 14 year total like EMA) and when the force/time is met sends the voltage to the inflator bottle (7000PSI helium argon compressed gas, 10 year life span) which pops a cap, shatters the diaphragm, releasing the gas up the inflator hose (10kPSI fire hose 1/2 diameter) and the bag (for the RV will be contained in the shoulder harness) splits a tear seam and deploys to the front of the pilot/passenger. Stays up for about 3-5 seconds and then self deflates.

That captured most of the questions. They are effective in preventing head and torso trauma which is the number one injury/fatality in ALL GA aircraft accidents. 80% of all GA aircraft accidents happen in the vicinity of the airport and at speeds that are survivable. We test our systems up to a 26g load at our sled test facility in Phoenix.

Thank you for all your positive comments. The NTSB report was great but I must also clarify they are NOT mandating the FAA to do anything. They are reporting on the findings and showing that shoulder harnesses and seatbelt airbags increase the chance of survival by a factor of 70% over just having lap belts.

Rich
 
Hi Rich,

Thanks for the info. I'll add a couple of questions.

How much additional weight (above a "normal" shoulder harness set-up)?

How much space does the system add (control module, inflation bottle)?

Thanks
 
That's funny...Not for Aircraft???

I was under the impression that airbags were originally designed to reduce fatalities in Army Helicopter accidents. When a 'copter hits the ground and falls over, all Heck breaks loose!!
Automobile airbags are just a simple adaptation to the complex controls used in the aviation version?
Anyway, the idea of the 'bag' being projected away from your face toward the accident by a controlled release of nitrogen seems much wiser than a pyrotechnic device aimed at your face.
These have potential, and the price keeps getting better, even as the product improves. Kinda like computers. (Moore's law)
I'm never in favor of government mandates, get the Gov't in it and progress stops, yet price stays high.
Auto, Airplane and other power sport equipment manufacturers should (and do) advertise safety feature to attract buyers. That's the way I want it.
The Wife would want this added right quick!!
 
Airbag system weight

On average the system weighs about 6 pounds total for two seat placements. (Give or take about a pound depending on aircraft configuration).
 
RV-10 Amsafe Airbags

Has Amsafe abandoned the effort to produce airbag seatbelts for the experimental market, specifically the RV-10?
 
My 2 cents

At my day job, where I manage heavy jet mod /overhaul, I work with these Amsafe Airbelts. They are usually only installed where there is no seat in front of them, such as at bulkheads ect. During a seat modification program, we "dropped" a seat a few inches and discharged the belt, resulting in minor injury. At a major aircraft mfg. last year, there was a discharge while assembling a seat, resulting in a fatality. They may help in a crash, but must be treated with kid gloves in maintenance, and obviously, EMS needs to be a bit worried when doing any rescue event on an equipped aircraft..if they even know it has one. I'm not so sure we are really ready for them in our type of aircraft. Again, just my 2 cents.
 
I'm not sure why anyone would staple an explosive device to their chest?

If airbombs are so good, why are they forbidden in race cars?
 
Amsafe airbags work!

My son was a student, mechanic and flight instructor at the University of North Dakota (UND). Last year they had a student pilot stall and crash during a botched go-around in one of the 172's they use for primary training. The Amsafe airbag saved her life and she walked away with minor injuries. I will try to get pictures to post, but I think they were restricted.

I would install Amsafe's in the RV-10 I'm building without question. The DA-40 I used to own had them in the front seat - and the 40 has a 26G cockpit.

Although not completely applicable, the large reduction in fatalities in automobiles and trucks can partly be attributed to airbags.

Krea Ellis
 
KatanaPilot said:
...
Although not completely applicable, the large reduction in fatalities in automobiles and trucks can partly be attributed to airbags.

Krea Ellis
Click to expand...

I would doubt those numbers because at about the same time airbombs were mandated so was seat belt usage. Not to mention improvements in vehicle design, brakes, suspension, etc. In short, to many things changed at the same time to make valid comparisons. The dark secret of the things is how many people they kill an injure every year by going off when the shouldn't. If I could disable the things in my truck, I would do it in a heartbeat!
 
To each his own

N941WR said:
If airbombs are so good, why are they forbidden in race cars?
Click to expand...

Probably because race cars have a protective cocoon/roll cage, etc. for the drivers and an inadvertent deployment at 200 mph could cause more problems than they would solve. Plus the drivers of race cars knowingly take huge risks every time they go out on the track. I prefer to manage and mitigate the risk to myself and my passengers and I see airbag seatbelts as one tool in the arsenal.

Clearly, the certified market has embraced airbag seatbelts (80% of new airplanes come standard with them). One of the benefits of the experimental world is you can customize your airplane with much fewer restrictions.

I was simply asking if anyone knew if Amsafe had discontinued their work on developing their product for the experimental market.

Krea Ellis
 
Two folks

Several months ago I pulled two drivers from two cars that just had a head-on collision on a dirt road. I was the first responder. Driver 1 had about 4 airbags hanging down from everywhere. I don't think the driver had a seat belt on. He suffered a concussion and kept repeating himself over and over and walking in circles. Apparently the air bags moved him around a little bit and his body was not happy.

Driver 2 had a shoulder belt on but no airbag. Not sure why it didn't go off. He had a laceration to lower right leg with what I think was the tibia exposed, his left arm with laceration with whatever that bone is called sticking out, broke ribs along the shoulder belt area, concussion, a face plant impression in the front window with glass in this face, a broke pelvis, and some spinal and other internal injuries. He got a helicopter ride to Grady and lived, but is now disabled. Driver 1 got a ambulance ride to the hospital, and recovered enough in a couple of days to drive over and visit with driver 2.

Given this and other things that I have seen over the years responding to stuff, it seems the airbags do well on the first impact. I'm not a advocate for or against, as everyone needs to evaluate the risk themselves. However, given the potential danger if not installed right, I am not sure if these things in airplanes will increase safety or not. Seems like a lot of engineering would need to be done before turning them loose on us experimental folks. But, if anyone could figure out how to do it, It would be us. Ingenuity seems to be hallmark of the experimental portion of aviation.
cj
 
N941WR said:
I would doubt those numbers because at about the same time airbombs were mandated so was seat belt usage. Not to mention improvements in vehicle design, brakes, suspension, etc. In short, to many things changed at the same time to make valid comparisons. The dark secret of the things is how many people they kill an injure every year by going off when the shouldn't. If I could disable the things in my truck, I would do it in a heartbeat!
Click to expand...

Even with seatbelt use being mandated in so many places, it's astounding how many people don't wear them. In at least half the accidents I ran on the fire department, the occupants weren't wearing seatbelts. I personally know a couple of people who only put them on when their kids are in the car :confused:

That said, the number of accidental/unintended deployments is FAR outweighed by the number of fatalities and serious injuries prevented every year. Not wanting an airbag because you're worried it might go off when it shouldn't is like not wanting to wear a seat belt because you don't want to be trapped in a burning car, or because you'd "rather be thrown clear".
 
airguy said:
I have a hard time reconciling this part...



with this part...
Click to expand...

Not hard to explain/understand at all. Many drivers wear their seat/shoulder belts quite loosely, an there is quite a bit of stretch in the belts as well. In addition, the human body when decelerated suddenly can flex and stretch more than you might imagine. Some car manufacturers use seat-belt tensioners to help reduce this problem.

I spent almost 30 years in emergency departments and I will tell you that while airbags cause some injuries, they are continually improving and the injuries that occur - as described in the referenced post - are orders of magnitude less severe than those without. My own daughter's life/health was saved by a side airbag when she totaled a car I had bought her 9 days earlier.
 
Air bags saved us

In 2012, my wife and I were in a collision at 50 mph impact speed. A van ran a stop sign and pulled across in front of us on a rural highway. We were in a 2007 Accord wearing our seat belts and shoulder harnesses. The front end of our car hit the side of the van maybe 15 degrees off the perpendicular. There was a tremendous bang and our car spun around, essentially destroyed from the A pillars forward. I briefly lost consciousness and came to sitting in the wrecked vehicle. The airbags functioned as designed, as did the crush area in the engine compartment.

Result--no fractures. Mild concussions. Many bruises and abrasions. Sprained ribs. Knees impacted the knee bolster causing knee injuries to both of us, mine temporary, hers more serious.

Before air bags, even with seat belts and shoulder harnesses, I am sure we would have been dead or at least disabled.

I like the idea of retrofitting air bags to my RV-6A. I need to find a way to recover the six pounds from somewhere else first. Maybe I'll switch to one of the new lithium batteries once I feel they are safe.

LeRoy Johnston RV-6A Esperanza 980 hours.
 
Airbags in homebuilts

Whatever is installed, the sensors logic to fire the bags will have to be thoroughly researched and tested. Some of the Army's first "Mike" model Blackhawks had side airbags. Some deployed during routine slope landings (definitely attention getting during a landing !!) and the systems I think were disabled & removed. I'd be worried of deployments when not needed, like rough landings, turbulence, and the like.
 
Prospective Builder

I hope to build soon and some type of SRS/airbag is high on my list of required options. Seems hard to argue with the additional safety this technology brings. I Hope AMsafe and others keep pushing forward with development.
 
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