W
william weesner
aileron
has anyone
has anyone
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Van's Air Force
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az_gila
Well Known Member
Yes....
Bill,
I had mine welded (by a professional - just don't say it's for a plane...) and then cadmium plated... came out nice.
This was on an old RV-6A kit, with a steel tube and steel end fittings with a male thread. Are the RV-7 ones the same construction??
The cad. plating was easy to get done a while ago, now I would just epoxy prime it with two coats.
gil in Tucson
PS clean off the existing cad. plating on the steel end fittings before you take it to the welder... he'll like it better that way...
Bill,
I had mine welded (by a professional - just don't say it's for a plane...) and then cadmium plated... came out nice.
This was on an old RV-6A kit, with a steel tube and steel end fittings with a male thread. Are the RV-7 ones the same construction??
The cad. plating was easy to get done a while ago, now I would just epoxy prime it with two coats.
gil in Tucson
PS clean off the existing cad. plating on the steel end fittings before you take it to the welder... he'll like it better that way...
Captain_John
Well Known Member
Captain_John
Well Known Member
Cadnium
Bill, I think you will have success with this method. If an idiot like me can pull it off, you can too!
If I had a pic of the shop heads, I would post them. *Most* of them look really good!
REALLY good!
Go one size shorter on the rivets. I think Van suggests the extra long ones because he expects them to swell larger than they really do inside the CADNIUM plated rod ends (and they don't).
Lemme know how it works out for you!
Good luck!
CJ
Bill, I think you will have success with this method. If an idiot like me can pull it off, you can too!
If I had a pic of the shop heads, I would post them. *Most* of them look really good!
REALLY good!
Go one size shorter on the rivets. I think Van suggests the extra long ones because he expects them to swell larger than they really do inside the CADNIUM plated rod ends (and they don't).
Lemme know how it works out for you!
Good luck!
CJjedimike007
Member
Try filling the inside of the tubes with epoxy/flox where the rivets go through. Redrill the holes through the flox and try to set the rivets. Makes it alot easier. It stops the rivet from trying to swell inside the tube.
Mike
Mike
Captain_John
Well Known Member
Bill, glad to hear you got it all set!
CJ
CJ
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My report
Hi to everyone.
I had the same problem and I solved it using one of the indicated techniques: C-frame. I noticed that there are two problems: the first, is that rivet seems too long (and it is slightly long; not so long); the second (which is a consequence of the first), that hand squeezer or rivet gun easily get misaligned (especially beacuse the flat rivet set is slightly mushroomed and it tends to go away...). The latter is solved using the C-frame and hitting only one shot per time, then checking and eventually realigning before the next shot (resist the temptation to use, once the rivet starts setting, the hand squeezer!). The first, could be solved cutting 1/32'' from an AN470AD4-12. I think that using an AD4-11 (one size smaller rivet) is not good (I tried it): it is too short. Maybe, it will go, and aileron will never disconnect from pushrod, but I'm not an engineer to determine this. So, cutting 1/32 (with scotchbrite) is better than nothing: this will help a little for the first shots, which are critical.
Maybe Van's should have mentioned the problem. I think I would have used welding...
Hope this will help someone.
Camillo
Hi to everyone.
I had the same problem and I solved it using one of the indicated techniques: C-frame. I noticed that there are two problems: the first, is that rivet seems too long (and it is slightly long; not so long); the second (which is a consequence of the first), that hand squeezer or rivet gun easily get misaligned (especially beacuse the flat rivet set is slightly mushroomed and it tends to go away...). The latter is solved using the C-frame and hitting only one shot per time, then checking and eventually realigning before the next shot (resist the temptation to use, once the rivet starts setting, the hand squeezer!). The first, could be solved cutting 1/32'' from an AN470AD4-12. I think that using an AD4-11 (one size smaller rivet) is not good (I tried it): it is too short. Maybe, it will go, and aileron will never disconnect from pushrod, but I'm not an engineer to determine this. So, cutting 1/32 (with scotchbrite) is better than nothing: this will help a little for the first shots, which are critical.
Maybe Van's should have mentioned the problem. I think I would have used welding...
Hope this will help someone.
Camillo
captainron
Well Known Member
Aileron pushrod rivets
I did this recently using 11's and the Tatco. Set them until the shop heads were about 3/4 set, then switched to cup sets at both ends and finished setting. Came out perfectly; you have to look closely to determine which end of the rivet is the shop end. They both look like manufactured heads!
I did this recently using 11's and the Tatco. Set them until the shop heads were about 3/4 set, then switched to cup sets at both ends and finished setting. Came out perfectly; you have to look closely to determine which end of the rivet is the shop end. They both look like manufactured heads!
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GAHco
Well Known Member
I used Monel Rivets
Aluminum Rivets in Steel Structure NO THANKS!
There are plenty of AD's in the certified world addressing the long term un-airworthiness of this due to hidden corrosion and loss of integrity.
I used MS20615-4M10's and squeezed them on one PP tube, and used a hammer carefully on the other. The hammer method was easier and came out better.
I used a drill press to drill the holes in the tubing and fitting at the same time. Had to stabilize the tube from rolling or wiggling. After first hole I put one rivet in (didn't drive yet) just to keep things from moving while you drill the other hole.
To hammer, place the head of the rivet on a smooth clean steel surface.
With the tail straight up hit it 2 to 3 times until its not quite set.
16oz smooth ball peen is what I used.
Rotate it about 20 degrees or so, give the tail another light smack.
Rotate it the other direction for similar orientation give the tail another light smack.
The results are a tight monel rivet with a fairly small tail that has been expanded and slightly wiped on each side in a manner that its not coming out unless you get the drill.
I did paralketone the innerds of the tube before putting the rod end in.
To see what they look like go to, see the last two pictures
http://www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com/toms/plane_proj.asp
Additional info - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
With the Monel rivets.
I did not mention that the rivet tail when done looks slightly smeared on the outside edges after the tilting and hitting with the hammer.
That's why you give it a couple smacks straight on before tilting the rod side to side. This makes sure that you have expanded the rivet to fill the holes tightly. Then the side to side bit just increases the size of the shop head, or tail. Yes the tail is pretty short by most standards, but if the rivets are tight in the holes all you have to do is keep them in the holes, their is no tension load on these rivets
If someone wants a few, I have some extras left. PM me and I will mail 8 or 10 to each request, until I run out. P.S. US. only.
Aluminum Rivets in Steel Structure NO THANKS!
There are plenty of AD's in the certified world addressing the long term un-airworthiness of this due to hidden corrosion and loss of integrity.
I used MS20615-4M10's and squeezed them on one PP tube, and used a hammer carefully on the other. The hammer method was easier and came out better.
I used a drill press to drill the holes in the tubing and fitting at the same time. Had to stabilize the tube from rolling or wiggling. After first hole I put one rivet in (didn't drive yet) just to keep things from moving while you drill the other hole.
To hammer, place the head of the rivet on a smooth clean steel surface.
With the tail straight up hit it 2 to 3 times until its not quite set.
16oz smooth ball peen is what I used.
Rotate it about 20 degrees or so, give the tail another light smack.
Rotate it the other direction for similar orientation give the tail another light smack.
The results are a tight monel rivet with a fairly small tail that has been expanded and slightly wiped on each side in a manner that its not coming out unless you get the drill.
I did paralketone the innerds of the tube before putting the rod end in.
To see what they look like go to, see the last two pictures
http://www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com/toms/plane_proj.asp
Additional info - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
With the Monel rivets.
I did not mention that the rivet tail when done looks slightly smeared on the outside edges after the tilting and hitting with the hammer.
That's why you give it a couple smacks straight on before tilting the rod side to side. This makes sure that you have expanded the rivet to fill the holes tightly. Then the side to side bit just increases the size of the shop head, or tail. Yes the tail is pretty short by most standards, but if the rivets are tight in the holes all you have to do is keep them in the holes, their is no tension load on these rivets
If someone wants a few, I have some extras left. PM me and I will mail 8 or 10 to each request, until I run out. P.S. US. only.
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Charles in SC
Well Known Member
I tig welded mine, they worked fine. Put some vasoline or mig dip type grease on the threads to protect them before you weld them. Drill a #30 hole in the tube to vent while welding and so you can treat internally with oil after they are welded. Just put some in and slosh it around to coat, then pour it out the hole.Then put a self sealing blind rivet in the hole and paint. I felt most comfortable doing this as I had made some similar tubes for a prievious a/c project.Steel tube aircraft structures have been done this way for years.
Good luck!
Good luck!
captainron said:I did this recently using 11's and the Tatco. Set them until the shop heads were about 3/4 set, then switched to cup sets at both ends and finished setting. Came out perfectly; you have to look closely to determine which end of the rivet is the shop end. They both look like manufactured heads!
Captain,
your idea is excellent! You should tell Van's!
In fact, no. 12 is too long. There is no way to avoid from bending. No. 11 is slightly too short, but it is comes out perfectly. Nice shop head. With your technique, you can use the shop head upper border material to gain the minimum rivet height (if we have rounded manufactured shop heads...it means that upper borders could be rounded...I suppose). In addition, the rounded shop head will not risk to block the pushrod movement on the rear spar (otherwise, the hole should be enlarged quite a bit, to avoid such risk...during flight!).
captainron
Well Known Member
Mille grazie, Camillo! I'm glad you liked my idea. I had heard stories that riveting may not come out so well, so I almost had these welded. If you do this, keep the holes precise so you only have a couple of thousandths (inch) clearance around the rivet.
Ciao.
Ciao.
briand
Well Known Member
I took a -12 rivet to the SB wheel and made it into an -11.5 (which I wet installed with zinc chromate primer). I brought my rods to work to use a squeezer that's mounted to a bench and has a custom made yoke with a wide opening. Yea I got in trouble but its done now so screw them.
captainron said:
Prego. Di nulla. Yesterday, I analized -11 rivet height and diameter and they complie to militar tolerances (0.050 height and 0.163 diameter)http://home.earthlink.net/~gilalex/ .
So, for those who still have to rivet two aileron steel powder coated pushrods: disregard AN470 AD4-12 and go directly with AD4-11 in a first drill hole (not previously drilled, riveted and de-riveted). Check minimum dimensions with table III in the link above mentioned (with a precision caliper or a home-made gauge) and apply primer on rivet, before shooting it (this is to prevent corrosion problems when riveting matierial is different from riveted material: see the same document linked). Optional: use Captainron technique on inner rivets, to prevent pushingrod rivet from hitting rear spar.
Ciao.
Camillo
GAHco
Well Known Member
I had about 40 MS20615-4M10 monel rivets.
First 4 builders who send me a P.M. with their mailing info will get 10 each of the Monel rivets for their 1/2" push rod tube riveting, mailed to them within the US for free, postage paid.
GONE, thanks for the response
First 4 builders who send me a P.M. with their mailing info will get 10 each of the Monel rivets for their 1/2" push rod tube riveting, mailed to them within the US for free,
postage paid.GONE, thanks for the response
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JonJay
Well Known Member
Any failures of Riveted RV Pushrods, Ever?
There are thousands out there, with thousands of hours, done per Van's standard instructions. I have never heard of a failure, loose end, or anything to suggest there are any issues. Not that anybody wants to be the first, but has there ever been?
There are thousands out there, with thousands of hours, done per Van's standard instructions. I have never heard of a failure, loose end, or anything to suggest there are any issues. Not that anybody wants to be the first, but has there ever been?
GAHco
Well Known Member
Shear Strength of Rivets
No, I did some with a standard C YOKE pneumatic Squeezer and some were done just as easy with a 16 oz ball-peen and an anvil.
The AD rivets have a shear strength of 30ksi
The Monel rivets have a shear strength of 49-59ksi
The Stainless are the hardest and have a shear strength of 65-85 ksi.
Having rebuilt firewalls with both monel and stainless rivets, Ill take the Monel any day. They shoot well with a 3x gun and on the 1/8" size I would say a 2x gun would work well too.
The stainless rivets put a pretty good ring in your hand unless you go up a size in your bar, the monel dont seem to harden up as the shop head forms, it just forms.
For more info on solid rivets see. www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com/images/pdf/solidrivets.pdf
briand said:
No, I did some with a standard C YOKE pneumatic Squeezer and some were done just as easy with a 16 oz ball-peen and an anvil.
The AD rivets have a shear strength of 30ksi
The Monel rivets have a shear strength of 49-59ksi
The Stainless are the hardest and have a shear strength of 65-85 ksi.
Having rebuilt firewalls with both monel and stainless rivets, Ill take the Monel any day. They shoot well with a 3x gun and on the 1/8" size I would say a 2x gun would work well too.
The stainless rivets put a pretty good ring in your hand
unless you go up a size in your bar, the monel dont seem to harden up as the shop head forms, it just forms. For more info on solid rivets see. www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com/images/pdf/solidrivets.pdf
captainron
Well Known Member
Why are we worrying about shear? These control rods are mostly "in compression". As much force as it took to drive the ends into my rods, I have doubts that rivets are even needed!
GAHco
Well Known Member
Answer to shear question.
The shear was listed as a relative indicator to a question of how hard the rivets would be to drive, and whether or not a 4X gun would be required.
I would rather give a little too much info, than a little too little.
What I thought I didn't need to know yesterday might come in handy tomorrow.
captainron said:
The shear was listed as a relative indicator to a question of how hard the rivets would be to drive, and whether or not a 4X gun would be required.
I would rather give a little too much info, than a little too little.
What I thought I didn't need to know yesterday might come in handy tomorrow.
Rick of Austin
Well Known Member
Yes I welded mine
Simply removed the cad plating and powder coat from around the mating surfaces and ran a nice tight bead around the circumference. Its very sanitary looking, no rivets to hang up on the spar holes and seals the inside of the tube to prevent corrosion. I did have the luxury of using a TIG welder but gas would have worked just as weld.
Best of luck.
Rick
Simply removed the cad plating and powder coat from around the mating surfaces and ran a nice tight bead around the circumference. Its very sanitary looking, no rivets to hang up on the spar holes and seals the inside of the tube to prevent corrosion. I did have the luxury of using a TIG welder but gas would have worked just as weld.
Best of luck.
Rick
