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A few tool questions

Lionclaw

Lionclaw

Well Known Member
I've decided to go ahead and order the 9a emp kit and I'm in desperate need of tool ordering help! I've spent the last few days trying to find answers here, but the more I read the more confused(undecided?) I get.

Lots of questions... so lets see...

CLECOS! I know I need a lot of them. Anyone have a favorite(cheapest) place to buy them? How many and what size do I need for the 9a? Does anyone want to sell me their old ones?

Rivet tools - Rivet gun (2x, 3x), bucking bar, manual squeezer, pneumatic squeezer? What do I really need? If I get the 3x gun do I also need the 2x gun? Is it possible(or wise) to buck all of the plane's rivets? Anyone want to put a riveting tutorial on Youtube :) ? Or point me to some good instructions?

So far I have a band saw, drill press, pedestal grinder, air compressor, and a bunch of other random hand tools.

I'd like to keep my tool expenses to a minimum, but I won't skimp out on something if I really need it. I've looked at the packages on avery and spruce and they seem a bit steep for my budget.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
 
Regarding clecos, they're not all created equal. I'm afraid I can't recall which brand are the good ones, but the bad ones are just a hair too small to properly hang on in a dimpled hole. I'm sure others will chime in with brand name info.

I've never used one, but if I were gonna build again, I'd spring for one of those tungsten bucking bars. They cost a ton, but they're so small and dense that you'll be able to get almost everything done with the one bar.

Everybody is gonna tell you that you HAVE to get a pneumatic squeezer and a lever type dimpler, but I built the whole thing with neither and it came out great. The fact is that very few rivets lie near enough to an edge to use a squeezer anyway and the ol' c-frame dimpler makes a real nice dimple.
 
Clecos: I bought the recommended amount (from the Avery catalog) and ended up buying at least 100 more #40. But it really depends what order you will build in. If you will build one wing at a time, and not start the fuselage until the wings are totally done, I bet the recommended amount is fine.

If you're quickbuilding, you can do with far less.

Also get a dozen black clecos, useful in the fuselage.

Rivet gun: Most people prefer the 3x. You will also need a squeezer, to do dimpling at least. I strongly recommend buying a pneumatic squeezer -- it will make many riveting and dimpling jobs a breeze. If money is tight, buy one used off of ebay, and plan to resell it (at the same price, probably) once you're done. You will not be sorry.

rvproject.com has some good descriptions of riveting technique. Haven't seen any videos online, just the Orndorff videos available from Van's.

Tool kits: yep, expensive. Avery will let you add/delete stuff and still apply the discount -- they might let you strip down a tool kit pretty severely and still give you the discount.
 
Lionclaw said:
CLECOS! I know I need a lot of them. Anyone have a favorite(cheapest) place to buy them? How many and what size do I need for the 9a? Does anyone want to sell me their old ones?
Click to expand...
I like the WEDGELOK brand, personally. Bought mine from Avery.

Imho, don't buy clecos from Aircraft Spruce. I've bought probably tens of kilobucks worth of stuff from Spruce and I'm not about to bad-talk the company. It's just those 3/32" clecos they sell (or used to sell) somehow have a smaller diameter and don't work as well for dimpled holes.

Lionclaw said:
If I get the 3x gun do I also need the 2x gun?
Click to expand...
Nope. One or the other will do just fine.

You asked about bucking all of the rivets. Sure, you can shoot/buck most. I personally prefer squeezing when I can, though. FWIW, my preferred methods are:

1. Squeezing with the pneumatic squeezer (painless & good results)
2. Shooting with the C-frame (perfectly square every time; only applies to universal head rivets)
3. Squeezing with a hand squeezer
4. Shooting & bucking
5. Blind rivet

Obviously you can't use ALL of those methods on every rivet. It depends on what it is you're workin' with.
 
szicree said:
Regarding clecos, they're not all created equal. I'm afraid I can't recall which brand are the good ones, but the bad ones are just a hair too small to properly hang on in a dimpled hole. I'm sure others will chime in with brand name info.
Click to expand...

Dan already mentioned the name but I second that Wedgelok works just fine with dimpled holes. Monogram (the name mentioned at Avery's page) is manufacturer for those clecos.

I've just left wing hanging of RV-7 with main skins on and I've there now about 400 clecos... it would be easier with more if you wish to work on both sides same time and RV-9 has longer wing. Where I'm drilling I've cleco on every second hole and further there maybe less. Having enough clecos will speed up a bit and they are not that expensive compared to everything else.
 
I disagree

szicree said:
Everybody is gonna tell you that you HAVE to get a pneumatic squeezer and a lever type dimpler, but I built the whole thing with neither and it came out great. The fact is that very few rivets lie near enough to an edge to use a squeezer anyway and the ol' c-frame dimpler makes a real nice dimple.
Click to expand...

I think the DRDT-2 dimpler was the best money I spent on tools. And my pneumatic squeezer was the second best money I spent. It really comes down to personal preference. Find a couple of local builders in your area, and go meet them. Try out their tools on some scrap aluminum, and see which ones you like the best.
 
My most used power tool is my Delta bench belt/disk sander. 20/20 hindsight reveals not to buy a pedestal grinder. I used mine once to alter my pop rivet tool for use on hte fuel tank Z brackets.
The 4 pack of bucking bars I bought from ATS worked 95 percent of the time. You'll invent or copy many special tools during the build process.

Steve
 
Wow, lots of good stuff on rvproject.com. It looks like Dan has really put together a great site.

There's so much info to digest right now. Going to fax in my order here in a few minutes and I guess I'll have a week or two to get some tools and do more reading.

Thanks for the responses everyone!
 
OLD & CHEAP

Now from an "OLD", cheap builder. My wife & I have built at least 8 complete airplanes, rebuilt many, and repaired even more. I have never owned a "C-frame" or DRDT-2. I do all my dimpling with either a pop rivet dimpler or vice-grip dimpler.
I do LOVE my pneumatic squeezer (I do not use it for dimpling), but it is NOT a must have. Clecos? You can not have too many.
 
Gary Bricker

Be sure you belong to a EAA chapter with lots of builders you can borrow from or the chapter has tools. The more good tools you have the easier to get a job done. Buy cheap tools for a one time use. Ask experenced builders how they did something. Sometimes things that look difficult are easy if someone has already done it .
 
I found that Brown's had the best price of Cleco's. Well, Van's has them cheap, too, but Brown's has free shipping for larger orders (over $75?). They also had the best price on on a rivet gun (3x works fine for me) and air drill (Souix). I also like Plane Tools, where I got most of my other tools. They also have great deals on a pneumatic squeezer and DRDT-2 dimpler, which you will love. You can delete items that you already have for credit. The Yard Store has some great prices on drill bits (get a dozen of both the #30 and #40), dimple dies and deburring bits. Oh, you will need a dozen 3/16" clecos. I have ended up with 300 silver clecos and 100 copper. I would recommend getting 400 silvers, though. I have a tungsten bucking bar, finding the best deal at Buckingbar.net (they advertise to the left). It is nice, but if funds are short, put it towards a pneumatic squeezer or DRDT.

I remember how confusing picking out tools was. I had never heard of a pneumatic squeezer or even held a pop riveter, but you will learn and most of it will eventually make sense. Getting help from someone in the local EAA chapter is a good way to learn how to use things. Many will also let you borrow something, like a torque wrench. Just be sure you will be willing to return the favor.
 
Mel said:
I have never owned a "C-frame" or DRDT-2. I do all my dimpling with either a pop rivet dimpler or vice-grip dimpler.
Click to expand...

So you dimple all the holes that aren't on the edge of a skin with a pop-rivet tool? Wow, that must take a long time.
 
The folks with the DRDT swear by them, but I got along fine with the regular Avery dimpling frame & thousands of RV's were built before the DRDT came along a year or so ago.

I don't have a tungsten bar, but would like to have one. There are places where getting a large bar in there would be nice, but things just won't fit. The heavier the bar, the better, and a little bitty steel bar just doesn't do the job as well & that tungsten bar will work for most things. Just now, there were 8 listings on Ebay for tungsten bars. Recent selling prices ranged from $41 to $137 and probably averaged about $75.

If you don't go for the tungsten bar, buy a large variety of bars. Yardstore.com has the best selection. I have bars I have used only a couple times, but for those times I didn't find anything else that would work.

I sprung for the pneumatic squeezer & am glad I did. Sure, you can use a hand squeezer, it's just easier and faster with the pneumatic and dimpling light weight parts like ribs goes really fast on the pneumatic tool. Of course, you can screw up really fast, too. Can be had on Ebay. If you aren't Ebay savvy, take some time to learn or get burned. Good place for a Chicago Pneumatic 3X rivet gun (one of the best makes; not to be confused with anything from Harbor Freight which uses "Chicago" in their brand names, but isn't Chicago Pneumatic.) Don't fall for an air hammer.

If you go for a manual squeezer, seriously consider Cleaveland's "main squeeze". The leverage action makes squeezing easier.

I have bought clecos from several sources; Brown had the best prices; never bought from Spruce & never had any that were too small. First I heard of the problem.

You can buy a lot of tools on Ebay. Toolsez1 seems to offer some good deals & throws in a lot of related & unrelated stuff in their offerings. They have been selling there a long time.

Richard Scott
RV-9A
Wings--Almost done!
 
tools

From a tool fanatic direct to you. Just remember to get the best available tools you can.
A Sioux 3X gun is a super choice, as are their 1/4 inch drills. I use a 3/8"drill quite a bit, as it seems more balanced with a microstop. Recommend Sioux.
Small tungsten bucking bar, as others have advised, it is a must have.
I have a US tool pneumatic squeezer that will squeeze a -5 rivet easily with 125# air. I have found that useful for the few I have needed to squeeze, but find myself with the tatco's in my hand most of the time. Air squeezer does a better job, and are more consistent, but you can build without it if you have strong hands.
I see no need for anything more than a c frame dimple whacker, but I would probably just love the new lever dimpler that all seem to rave about.

couple of other things...Don't buy a fluting plier with a plastic tip, Brown tool has awesome bits that don't walk and stay sharp at a great price, and get a small fan spacer. Also, I don't care what anybody says, you can't build one of these things without a threaded bit angle drill
 
I've used a DRDT2 and own a C-frame - I don't see what all the hype is about, I mean sure it's a little quieter, but it's no easier than whacking the C-frame. I won't be buying a DRDT2. I do own a pneumatic squeezer with longeron and 4" no-hole thin nose yokes. It's OK and I'm glad I have it for places I can't buck, but I'd rather buck or back rivet everything that I possibly can (I'm using a tungsten bar).
 
Mel said:
YEP! And not really!
Click to expand...

So what kind of nail do you use and what brand pop rivet dies do you use? The ones I have stink and make a sorry dimple. I can't imagine doing the entire lot of skins this way. Also the nails are always pulling thru the dies or breaking off.
 
I made my own dies on the lathe. Although Avery's work well also. Just be sure to use 100 degree dies for solid rivets. Remember that pulled rivet heads are 120 degrees.
I used standard hardware store nails. I use a pneumatic puller and adjust the pressure to "just enough". I can do a full wing skin with 2 nails.
 
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Mel said:
I used standard hardware store nails. I use a pneumatic puller and adjust the pressure to "just enough". I can do a full wing skin with 2 nails.
Click to expand...

Wow, I guess I have bad technique with the pop rivet dimple dies, after a few holes my nails either break or get too chewed up from the riveter jaws to fit through the holes easily.
 
morlino said:
Wow, I guess I have bad technique with the pop rivet dimple dies, after a few holes my nails either break or get too chewed up from the riveter jaws to fit through the holes easily.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think lots of us must need a video class from Mel on how to do this properly because there ain't no way I could do an entire plane this way. If I did, it would look like poo!

I can't imagine how his results are so much better due to the fact that all you do is pull the dies together but he must have superior technique....
 
Well, there is some learned technique, but nothing difficult. The main thing is to rotate the tool around to make sure that it is centered in the hole before pulling. I don't understand where the question is. I've done lots of airplanes this way. And all of them have won multiple awards.
Another side benefit is that you will never dimple "beside" where the hole is, such as is done with the c-frame.
 
Yes, that's the correct scotchbrite wheel. I got mine from Avery, it worked well, but I damaged it--don't ask how. Got another from Van's and it is out of balance & others have said theirs were too, so buy the Avery wheel.

Richard Scott
RV-9A wings
 
Thanks Richard. At $60 it just seemed a bit expensive. I went ahead and ordered it, some dimple dies, rivet cups, and the "scratched paint" c-frame dimpler they had marked down to $80.

I also managed to snag a pneumatic squeezer off ebay tonight for $220 shipped. It looks like a chicago clone? Anyone know where I can get different yokes for it?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250166774470

When squeezing rivets, do you use a cup and a flat set on one side, and a cup on the other? Or does the squeezer have it's own flat?

I guess I could learn how to do this stuff by practicing on scrap first. I ordered the practice kit, so that should be helpful. I'll probably go see if I can meet up with some local builders before I get started.

Anyone building near Dayton Ohio?

-Andy
 
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Lionclaw said:
It looks like a chicago clone? Anyone know where I can get different yokes for it?
Click to expand...

Yep, looks like a chicago clone. I purchased my yokes from Avery Tools. The only two yokes I have are the longeron yoke and the 4" no-hole / thin-nose yoke - others may say you also need the regular 3" yoke, but I have gotten along fine without it.

Lionclaw said:
When squeezing rivets, do you use a cup and a flat set on one side, and a cup on the other? Or does the squeezer have it's own flat?
Click to expand...

For AN426 countersunk rivets, you use a flat set on both sides. If you're using one of the thin-nose / no-hole yokes, you only put a flat die on the plunger - the other side of the yoke has no hole to accept a die and is flat like a die.

For AN470 universal head rivets, you use an appropriately sized cupped set on the mfg head and a flat set to make the shop head. Again, if you're using a thin-nose / no-hole yoke, you only need the cupped set for the mfg head as the yoke provides the flat to make the shop head.

I bought the Avery tool kit which comes with an assortment of sets:

http://www.averytools.com/pc-507-18-cup-squeezer-set-kit-w-block.aspx

Hope that helps.
 
Thanks Matt. That makes a lot more sense. Does the squeezer need to be adjusted so it doesn't squish the rivet too much?
 
Ahh, the adjustable set holder! One of the best things out there.

When you have things adjusted for a particular rivet size, turn the set holder up until the sets firmly touch, counting the turns as you go. Write that number down where you store that size rivet. Back off that number of turns whenever you set up for that size rivets again and no more adjustments will be needed. Without the adjustable set holder you will be setting washers under the rivet set to get the right adjustment. Do it a couple times & you'll order the adjustable.

You can get more yokes from Clear Air Tools--Fred seems to have the best price unless someone else has a sale. I have a longeron yoke I use sometimes, a thin nose yoke and a 3" yoke and use the 3" most of all, although the thin nose would probably work almost as often. While you are on the Clear Air website check out his rivet gage, which I think is the best one available. The tool is well designed, the website is not, you will have to search some. Also consider reamers instead of so many drills. They will give you a truer hole. You don't need many; I am half way thru the sheet metal work & am on my second 3/32" reamer.

Richard Scott
RV-9A wings
 
Ok, adjustable sounds the way to go.

As far as reamers go, do you guys use piloted or non-piloted reamers?
 
captainron said:
Get non-piloted, straight flute, chucking reamers.
Click to expand...

What sizes? I got 3/16, 1/4 and 5/16 to do AN3, 4 and 5 bolts. We figured we'd just round out the set and get the ones for #30 and #40, and for #6 and #8 screws...question is, what's the right size for the reamers for #6 and #8 screws?
 
Standard screw charts show #6 screws to measure 0.138", and #8's at 0.164", so add whatever clearance you're comfortable with and order the reamers to fit.
Example-a #28 reamer is 0.1405" and a #27 reamer is 0.144", probably a good choice for the #6 screw. (MSC part # is 02291276)
A #18 reamer is 0.1695", probably a good choice for #8 screws.
(MSC # is 02291185)

Drill a few thousandths under the reamer sizes.

Screws generally hold panels and covers in place, so you may want a little more clearance than you would use for structural bolts.

Hope this helps.
 
Smaller size reamers

captainron said:
Standard screw charts show #6 screws to measure 0.138", and #8's at 0.164", so add whatever clearance you're comfortable with and order the reamers to fit.
Example-a #28 reamer is 0.1405" and a #27 reamer is 0.144", probably a good choice for the #6 screw. (MSC part # is 02291276)
A #18 reamer is 0.1695", probably a good choice for #8 screws.
(MSC # is 02291185)

Drill a few thousandths under the reamer sizes.

Screws generally hold panels and covers in place, so you may want a little more clearance than you would use for structural bolts.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...


I prefer reamer sizes a bit smaller than Ron for close fit holes.

If the holes need to be larger for a looser fit application, then just drilling them out with the appropriate number drill is usually OK.

Our MS and AN screws/bolts are actually slightly under size from commercial ones. Actual dimensions with tolerances can be found on the Genuine Aircraft Hardware site...

http://www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com

A NAS #8 screw is 0.1635 max. diameter, so a #19 reamer at 0.1660 is a better choice.

At #6 size, the screws get to be non-structural and commercial standards apply, the #6 screw has a nominal diameter of 0.138, so the #28 is a good close fit at 0.1405

To get to the larger AN sizes...

AN3 - 0.189 max. diam. - ream #12 - which is also 0.189

AN4 - 0.249 max. diam. - ream 1/4 or letter E at 0.250

Remember, all reamers have an plus tolerance, and zero negative tolerance, and with a hand held drill, all of our reamed holes will be slightly larger than the size stamped on the reamer....:)

This sometimes makes a slightly sloppy D hole (at 0.246) a better fit for our AN4 bolts (0.246 to 0.249) than the E hole...

Some size harts here might help

Drill sizes http://www.csgnetwork.com/drillsizeconvert.html

Tap info http://www.csgnetwork.com/screwnummachtable.html

Better to start with a tight hole than can be enlarged than a loose one that is hard to fill....:D

gil A - reading those specs again....:)
 
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