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9A / landing distance

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drmax

Well Known Member
I'm looking at buying a 9A and I've got a 2140' X 35' paved strip, with trees at either approach end. One guy told me it'd be a real challenge to land a 9A with that length. Sorta scared me to think I'd spend that kind of money on something that'd be difficult to land everytime. I thought the antisplat would be good insurance, due to me landing slow and the nose coming down quickly. What is your take...do I need to worry? I'm a "no timer" in the RV, but will get a few hours training before bringing it home.
The seller is bringing it up to demonstrate the landing and takeoffs, as well as prebuy. Thx, DM
 
Need more info to make a judgement such as the altitude, any significant slope on the strip, height of the trees, distance of the trees from the threshold, engine hp and CS or FP prop?

Fin
9A
 
Finley Atherton said:
Need more info to make a judgement such as the altitude, any significant slope on the strip, height of the trees, distance of the trees from the threshold, engine hp and CS or FP prop?

Fin
9A
Click to expand...
710' above SL. Strip is slightly elevated in mid section. Trees maybe 65' tall and 200 yrds off end of threshold. 160 HP fixed pitch metal. I'm pretty sure the glide slope wouldn't be a steep angle to get in, due to the tree factor. Going to ride with neighbor in his plane to judge this angle. DM
 
Complete rubbish

The guy doesn't know what he is talking about!!

I got our 9a down in less than 150 feet the other day. Take a look at http://www.wellesbourneairfield.com/

On the approach to 36 there is a wood on a hill so you are coming down over the trees on approach, we are still able to turn off into the cross runway 05.

The approach onto 18 is much easier as you dont have trees and a hill to contend with but again you can easily turn of at the cross runway.

The RV9 (A) is really easy to fly and land, it will bite if you are sloppy so get some coaching. But you now know what is possible for the aeroplane.

Actually I may go and do some touch and goes on a 1000 foot grass strip today. I have done 1200 foot grass strips with trees at the end full stop landings and take offs, with no problems.

So, my advice is that the aeroplane can do it easily...... the question is whether you have the skills, and confidence (no insult intended), you may need to hone your landing technique only you know that.
 
WAM120RV said:
The guy doesn't know what he is talking about!!

I got our 9a down in less than 150 feet the other day. Take a look at http://www.wellesbourneairfield.com/

On the approach to 36 there is a wood on a hill so you are coming down over the trees on approach, we are still able to turn off into the cross runway 05.

The approach onto 18 is much easier as you dont have trees and a hill to contend with but again you can easily turn of at the cross runway.

The RV9 (A) is really easy to fly and land, it will bite if you are sloppy so get some coaching. But you now know what is possible for the aeroplane.

Actually I may go and do some touch and goes on a 1000 foot grass strip today. I have done 1200 foot grass strips with trees at the end full stop landings and take offs, with no problems.

So, my advice is that the aeroplane can do it easily...... the question is whether you have the skills, and confidence (no insult intended), you may need to hone your landing technique only you know that.
Click to expand...
Looks like a nice place...wide and...uh don't see any trees. You're correct. It'll be the PIC that'll make the difference. I'll be ok. I do have some nice wide long paved strips nearby...er uh, it's just my strip is where i'll keep her will be the one that counts! I'll get a couple demo's in it while I have it on my property, this weekend and try and get a feel for it. Hopefully it'll be no big issue. Thx for the heads up. Really does land short! :)
 
Fly the Numbers

Finley is asking the right questions, but I suspect you'll find this is going to be a non-issue with pretty much any engine/prop combination you'll find in a 9. With just a few exceptions, everyone who has been at the controls of my plane for the first time has needed quite a bit of runway for landing - and that's in spite of a briefing where speeds are covered over and over. Unlike a Piper or Cessna where an extra 10 knots on final is no big deal (speed can be killed off quickly), the difference between 60 and 70 kts in a 9 translates into a great deal of real estate.
First, go out and practice stalling the A/C and flight at MCA. Spend at least an hour on the latter so you have a good feel and are comfortable at the slow speeds. Then find a long runway and try maintaining first 70, then 65, 60, and 55 knots all the way down final to over the numbers. Note the distance required to come to a full stop at each approach speed without using brakes. Note your approach angle. You're going to find that the one drawback to this aircraft is losing speed, especially in a descent.
Here's some easy numbers to remember (should be close for any 9):
Va- 100 kts
Approach Flaps - 90 kts
Full Flaps - 80 kts
Pattern - 70 kts
Final - 60 kts
Short Field -55 (all speeds at gross)
Remember to keep the nose off the ground until you run out of elevator.
If you're at all uncomfortable, keep the plane at a larger field for a short time, fly up to PTK, and I can work with you for a couple of hours. You're only cost would be the fuel you burn. Fly safe.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
 
The 9 is probably the easiest of all of the RV's for getting in and out of short strips. My friend gets out of a 2000 ft grass strip with no problem. He landed yesterday a full 500 ft shorter than my 6A on a paved strip. Just be aware of aircraft weight and density alt. and you will be fine. Practise those short field takeoffs and landings.
 
Probably get my -10 in there......hang on, we do that at a place near here.

Jamie Lee does it in his 7A with O360 and FP.

We dont use all the strip.

Just be careful and patient and fly the proper numbers, not the proper number plus a few for mum and add 10 more!
 
Check both ends of the performance

Don't forget to give a very close look at performance numbers for takeoff. An aircraft will always land in less space than takeoff. As an example, you can approach low over the trees and add a forward slip once clear to drop in for landing but no such option exists for takeoff (short of catapults aboard an aircraft carrier and afterburners but that was a long time ago for me).

Remember as well that a fixed pitch prop will not produce rated horsepower on takeoff. It will be better with a climb pitch prop but still below rated power. Determine real world performance numbers. This is what the 25 hour Phase 1 is for. Since you are buying a completed and flying plane, you should conduct your own Phase 1 to both determine the actual performance envelope of the plane and familiarize your self with your new craft.

The RV9 has outstanding short field performance. Do your homework first and you will have many years of enjoyment from your field.
 
Once you get proficient at landing the 9, you will have about 1000 feet or more runway you are not using.

Steve Johnson
RV-9A
230 hours
 
I was going to say I went for a demo ride with Ken Scott (ironic he has the same name as my dad) at Van's a few weeks ago. The landing distance felt like he could have landed on my driveway going to my house.

With 2140 feet available I would agree you will have a LOT remaining once you get comfortable in the plane.
 
flaps

you'd think with full flaps and going to idle, would slow down rather nicely.
i'd be getting trained in the plane, maybe 4 hrs, by the cfi owner, then flying 3 hrs back to my field for a landing. he's coming up this weekend to demonstrate on my field. i'll be find. i'll do my best to keep the nose keep up. that's sorta my worry as of now. thx gents for all the added info. DM
 
Great advice

terrykohler said:
Finley is asking the right questions, but I suspect you'll find this is going to be a non-issue with pretty much any engine/prop combination you'll find in a 9. With just a few exceptions, everyone who has been at the controls of my plane for the first time has needed quite a bit of runway for landing - and that's in spite of a briefing where speeds are covered over and over. Unlike a Piper or Cessna where an extra 10 knots on final is no big deal (speed can be killed off quickly), the difference between 60 and 70 kts in a 9 translates into a great deal of real estate.
First, go out and practice stalling the A/C and flight at MCA. Spend at least an hour on the latter so you have a good feel and are comfortable at the slow speeds. Then find a long runway and try maintaining first 70, then 65, 60, and 55 knots all the way down final to over the numbers. Note the distance required to come to a full stop at each approach speed without using brakes. Note your approach angle. You're going to find that the one drawback to this aircraft is losing speed, especially in a descent.
Here's some easy numbers to remember (should be close for any 9):
Va- 100 kts
Approach Flaps - 90 kts
Full Flaps - 80 kts
Pattern - 70 kts
Final - 60 kts
Short Field -55 (all speeds at gross)
Remember to keep the nose off the ground until you run out of elevator.
If you're at all uncomfortable, keep the plane at a larger field for a short time, fly up to PTK, and I can work with you for a couple of hours. You're only cost would be the fuel you burn. Fly safe.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
Click to expand...

I totally agree with the above. 9 is capable and it is up to you to learn how to use it. Idle abeam the number. Drop flaps at the speed referenced above. On final, if too high, slip it down. Too low, add a little power. Speed is critical for a good landing in 9. Always use the trim. When in doubt, add power and go around.
 
love the discussion; another data point

I think it's worth mentioning that all the airspeeds quoted are IAS, and may be different for various aircraft.
This is where it would be good to have a well -calibrated AoA system.
I use about 80 kts in the circuit, ( 1/2 flap) 70 on base, ( full flap) slow to 60-65 on final.
nudging 60..... it starts to sink like a rock, and there is barely enough elevator to fully flare at higher weights/aft CG. I do not play with 55 kt ( IAS) approach, as this doesn't seem to leave much margin to the stall, definitely not 1.2 x Vs.

Okay, I'm a low-time guy, but let's not tell another new guy that he can get into any strip over 500'. We ain't factory test-pilots or CFI's like you guys.

Point 2; what is the Take-Off procedure? it's still a topic of contention.....with some consensus to use about 15 degrees flap for max lift. ( short-field procedure)

I'd love to get out on my runway with chalk and a tape measure to see what the REAL numbers are. Too bad I'd get arrested.

just my $.02
 
Community of Service

terrykohler said:
. . . If you're at all uncomfortable, keep the plane at a larger field for a short time, fly up to PTK, and I can work with you for a couple of hours. You're only cost would be the fuel you burn. Fly safe.
Click to expand...

Wow, what a kind offer, Terry. I hope the good Doctor takes you up on it.

Stephen
 
I think you'll find you can do this after some practice. I'd work on my technique at a longer field until you have it down. You can also land shorter with a slow airspeed, power on approach. Of course and engine failure in that situation is a problem. As you get more proficient you'll be able to comfortably do it power off. The 9 slips real nice by the way as long as you are slow.

-Andy
 
simpkinsona said:
I think you'll find you can do this after some practice. I'd work on my technique at a longer field until you have it down. You can also land shorter with a slow airspeed, power on approach. Of course and engine failure in that situation is a problem. As you get more proficient you'll be able to comfortably do it power off. The 9 slips real nice by the way as long as you are slow.

-Andy
Click to expand...

ok, and I'll be getting the practice, that very day as I'm convinced on bringing it on in to my home base. someone also mentioned something on take off distance, and all these comments are starting to make me nervous. I wouldn't buy it, if I needed all of 2000' to take off....good grief! :confused: I'm just gonna focus on Van's numbers...and know that if the pilot can make it work (trained)...then the plane can do it! Take care and I think this thread is beat to death....good night.
 
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I was flying my -9 out of a 2300' strip with trees and displaced threshold on both ends.

If I three pointed it, I would turnaround at mid field without touching the brakes.

Take offs with the old 135 hp engine wasn?t even an issue at full gross and 95*F.
 
Do the engine allow for the installation of a constant speed prop.
If so, should you find that you would like better performance that would be an options.
Another option would be to install a 3 blade Catto prop.

With either, you would be shocked at how little runway is needed
 
drmax said:
710' above SL. Strip is slightly elevated in mid section. Trees maybe 65' tall and 200 yrds off end of threshold. 160 HP fixed pitch metal. I'm pretty sure the glide slope wouldn't be a steep angle to get in, due to the tree factor. Going to ride with neighbor in his plane to judge this angle. DM
Click to expand...

You will be more than happy with your 9a choice DM. We love our 9a. Both the wife and I regularly land and take off on a friends 1000' grassed bush strip (350'asl)with 65' tree's on the end (about 100 yrds from threshold) that you have to come in over and take off over (so we don't annoy the neighbors). Some brake is required if you have some breeze from behind you. Two up and about 28 gals of fuel, full flaps, 50-55 kts IAS on final and using power as needed to arrest the sink. The -9 is very stable at those speeds with heaps of sink to get you down after you have cleared the trees. Hold the nose off as long as possible after touch down and after the nose settles apply any brake that is needed.


Bob Dennis
RV9a 0-235 Rotec TBI. 150 hrs.
 
thank you

RetiredRacer said:
You will be more than happy with your 9a choice DM. We love our 9a. Both the wife and I regularly land and take off on a friends 1000' grassed bush strip (350'asl)with 65' tree's on the end (about 100 yrds from threshold) that you have to come in over and take off over (so we don't annoy the neighbors). Some brake is required if you have some breeze from behind you. Two up and about 28 gals of fuel, full flaps, 50-55 kts IAS on final and using power as needed to arrest the sink. The -9 is very stable at those speeds with heaps of sink to get you down after you have cleared the trees. Hold the nose off as long as possible after touch down and after the nose settles apply any brake that is needed.


Bob Dennis
RV9a 0-235 Rotec TBI. 150 hrs.
Click to expand...
Perfect Bob! That's what I wanted to here....:p I was considering the antisplat nose job mod, for what it's worth. I have an idea I'll let the nose down maybe a little heavy a few times, just due to me being me. I think that would be a good piece of insurance, for anyone. Unsure about the bearing mod to the nose wheel, as I have not read up on that much yet.
Thank you again. DM
(that rotec eng. must really purrrrrrrr for you!)
 
I fitted the "antisplat" recently before the wife started training in our 9a. I know some people do not believe in the product but my wife in her training has given the front a real workout with a couple of wheel barrow jobs :D.

And I had to do an off field maneuver once to dodge some "Roo's" that were hiding in the late afternoon shadows. It was late roll-out when I saw them and I went through some big bumps in avoiding the Roo's. I hit my head on the canopy and was expecting the front leg to go "splat". But the device did it's job and you can see where it has been working on the powder coating.

For nothing else, it was worth the cost just for some piece of mind coming into land at some unfamiliar bush strip. For me, it allows me to concentrate on the landing at hand, instead of trying to see what the condition of the surface is.

The engine is a Lycoming 0-235 with a Rotec TBI (throttle body injection). Sorry I should have noted that.

Bob
 
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1st landing

Welp...the owners brought up their plane, and took her for a spin. I take off was actually sloppy as I didn't let her raise off at 60, rather I pulled her up a bit. She settled back down a bit on right get but good God, by then I was doing nearly 80 and climbing like a raped ape. The landing was, uh, different:rolleyes:. It amounted to the 1st time doing a fly-"bye-bye" at nearly 130....mashed the gas after I realized I wasn't gonna slow down enough. Went around and set up for a lon-n-n-n-n-n-ng final, like 3 miles, just to bleed off the speed. Fully flaps, power off, this thing is a glider. Got her closer and popped the nose up a bit and down we came at 70...through the trees, over the numbers and a "firm" touch down with nose "shortly" after. The cfi copilot didn't touch a thing. I admire how quickly it slows without braking. (sorta want to jack it and check the wheels for free spin)
Great rudder authority. She turns on the ground....on a dime. So, looks like I'll be bringin her home in a couple weeks, after the dust settles. Gotta add that 160 D1A Lyc is the quietest, smoothest piece of machinery I've sat behind in a long time. (400 hrs since brand new) This should be a good machine for me for the rest of my flying career.:p DM
 
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