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RV-12 N412RV Has Been Rolled Out To The Public.

Phyrcooler said:
I believe you are correct. However, I don't believe that you can add Pants to an E-LSA if Van's didn't get the S-LSA approved with that feature, at least as an option. Are we correct Mel?

DJ
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Actually, after certification, you can make any mod you like, so long as it doesn't take you out of LSA parameters.
I know this makes no sense, but it is an FAA rule after all.
We discussed this at length this week at the FAA Recurrent DAR Seminar.
 
Phyrcooler said:
Wow... leave town for the week... and look at who shows up! :D I think she looks better in red than yellow! The panel looks basic, but very clean. I'm glad to see the lights and autopilot options. I had exchanged emails previously with Tom suggesting that they consider landing lights/wig-wags - even for a S-LSA. It is my belief that these are a daytime safety feature. VERY pleased to see those switches show up on this new bird.

DJ
Click to expand...

I totally agree with the lighting issue. At the very least I'd install a rotating beacon (strobe) on mine.

But if you look carefully at the first flight video, there are still no external lights installed on 412RV. :rolleyes:
 
A Catch-22?

Mel said:
Actually, after certification, you can make any mod you like, so long as it doesn't take you out of LSA parameters.
I know this makes no sense, but it is an FAA rule after all.
We discussed this at length this week at the FAA Recurrent DAR Seminar.
Click to expand...

Mel; said:
Remember, if the aircraft at any time does not meet LSA parameters, it cannot be brought back into LSA ever.
Click to expand...

So, the FAA allows us to make any mods we want, BUT if we inadvertently exceed LSA limitations, we can NEVER recover our LSA status? Talk about a "one strike" law where even the mildest misdemeanor leads to capital punishment . . .

Cheers,
Greg.
 
Mel said:
Actually, after certification, you can make any mod you like, so long as it doesn't take you out of LSA parameters.
I know this makes no sense, but it is an FAA rule after all.
We discussed this at length this week at the FAA Recurrent DAR Seminar.
Click to expand...

What is FAAs rationale for this rule? Do you forsee them changing this rule to a more common sense rule?
 
No. We have discussed it with them at length.
One of the major statements at Recurrent seminars is,
"We don't answer "why" questions!"
 
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Flaperons and stabilator

I could not tell from the pictures, but how are the flaperons drooped and the stabilator trimmed? I didn't see any controls.

Rich
 
Another "Mel" question...

In reading the LSA rules... I am trying to pick out the specifics regarding E-LSA being compliant or the same as the S-LSA it is based on. But... being home sick today... and thus mentally deficient... I need some help! Can you clarify where the line is in regards to being E-LSA compliant with the S-LSA version (to obtain the initial approval)? I mentioned the Dynon D-180 earlier... would the E-LSA have to have the same unit? How about radio... can we substitute an Icom for a Garmin? Or is it restricted to color/upholstery options? What kind of advice or latitude have you DAR's been given?

From the EAA's website (which is only a summary):

Experimental light-sport aircraft (E-LSA) may be flown by sport pilots. E-LSA kits that do not conform to amateur-built certification requirements and will be certificated in the E-LSA category must be based on an aircraft that has received a special LSA (S-LSA) airworthiness certificate.
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"Based" sounds a bit open... so I was trying to read through the actual regulations. That's fun! :rolleyes:

Oh... and any answer to our previous discussion of applying for an E-AB... and if denied, reapply for an E-LSA (assuming you have built it to comply with E-LSA requirements)?

Thanks for any insight you can lend!

DJ
 
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FAR part 21.191(i)(2)

21.191(i)(2) also refers you to 21.193(e) which states that the kit manufacturer must provide a certificate of compliance that the kit complies with 21.190(c). The kit must be constructed exactly per the plans. Any options must be listed as approved by the kit manufacturer. So, it's kind of up to Van as to what he will allow.
 
Mel said:
...(snip)...

The flight test period is 5 hours...
Click to expand...

So, unlike E-AB where your flight test is 40 hours, IF you build it exactly like the plans as an E-LSA, you get a 5 hour flight test and then you're done?

Sounds like a pretty cool way to get a bird in the air and available for use quickly. What's the down-side risk?

N_D
 
Yet another Mel Question

Mel, my apologies for continuing to ask you questions on the -12, and on the same note thank you for taking the time to ask all of our questions! :D

Mine is a pretty simple one that I believe I know; just want to confirm. If a builder finishes their -12 and certifies it as an E-LSA, even if it's being flown by a private pilot and meets all criteria for FAR 91.205 night operations, it still would not be allowed to fly at night, correct? In other words, if anyone wants to put lights on their plane and fly at night it would have to be certified E-AB?

Thank you sir :)

Edit: According to http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/final_rule_synopsis.html any LSA can be flown at night as long as it's equipped as needed and the pilot holds at least a private pilot certificate with a 3rd class medical. So, uh, nevermind! :)
 
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The day/VFR restriction is a "pilot" rule, not aircraft related. If the aircraft meets part 91.205 for night operations and the pilot can legally fly at night, he's good to go.
 
EFIS

Anyone know what the scoop is on AFS vs Dynon? I was looking forward to both, or at least a choice?

Cheers...Keith
 
Yep. Same rule. If the aircraft meets 91.205 and the pilot is qualified, IFR works.
 
Mel, did I correctly understand one of your previous posts that for an ELSA, you only have to do 5 (five) hours of test flying?
 
Yep!

Since the E-LSA must be exactly like the S-LSA it is based on, it is assumed that the design has proven itself.
 
More for Mel!

Mel said:
21.191(i)(2) also refers you to 21.193(e) which states that the kit manufacturer must provide a certificate of compliance that the kit complies with 21.190(c). The kit must be constructed exactly per the plans. Any options must be listed as approved by the kit manufacturer. So, it's kind of up to Van as to what he will allow.
Click to expand...
So, to further clarify - the FAA is expecting that the manufacturer (Van's in this case) will be specific in their plans to the point of branding equipment - IE: radios? Or is it acceptable for them to actually be non-specific on a brand and just advise to install per radio MFG recommendations?

Also, if I am understanding correctly, he can provide a listing or instructions for options. So, for example, he can provide instructions in the plans to install the specified Dynon D-180, but then can provide an alternate sheet that maybe just has the basic "steam" VFR gauges of ASI/ALT/Compass etc.?

If that is correct... then I guess we petition Van's for those options we hope he includes in the E-LSA plans.?

Mel - Thanks for your patience with us here in answering our questions. It is appreciated.

DJ
 
Phyrcooler said:
So, to further clarify - the FAA is expecting that the manufacturer (Van's in this case) will be specific in their plans to the point of branding equipment - IE: radios? Or is it acceptable for them to actually be non-specific on a brand and just advise to install per radio MFG recommendations?
Click to expand...
I'm also looking forward to Mel's comments on E-LSA, but here's how it works on S-LSA: If the factory says you can do it, you can do it. If they don't give explicit permission, you can't.

Example: Suppose the Garmin SL40 goes out in 621CT. I want to install a new Icom A210 instead of repairing the SL40 for whatever reason (it's got cool blue lighting?). Unless Flight Design gives me permission, I can't. Fortunately, FD has been very good in giving permission for most things and has given some blanket avionics approvals, but the issue remains.

TODR
 
the_other_dougreeves said:
I'm also looking forward to Mel's comments on E-LSA, but here's how it works on S-LSA: If the factory says you can do it, you can do it. If they don't give explicit permission, you can't.

Example: Suppose the Garmin SL40 goes out in 621CT. I want to install a new Icom A210 instead of repairing the SL40 for whatever reason (it's got cool blue lighting?). Unless Flight Design gives me permission, I can't. Fortunately, FD has been very good in giving permission for most things and has given some blanket avionics approvals, but the issue remains.

TODR
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It works the same for E-LSA. But remember the permission must be in writing. You must have "hard" documentation.
 
Experimental?

I can not tell from the Photos, however is the ?Experimental? placard still required? If the RV12 is S-LSA conforming would there be some sort of statement as such in the plane?

There would be comfort factor in knowing an aircraft is not experimential.

Thank You
Warren Hurd
90454 half done.
 
S-LSA (factory built) carries the words "Light Sport".
E-LSA (kit built) carries the word "Experimental".
 
I traded emails with Scott at Van's regarding panel equipment. Here is what is known (installed) so far, and all caveats apply (YMMV - subject to change - void where prohibited, etc.):

Dynon D180
Garmin SL40
Garmin GTX327
Garmin GPSMAP496
Flightcom 403

Autopilot decision has not been made at this time.

Regards,
 
Newbie_Doo said:
I traded emails with Scott at Van's regarding panel equipment. Here is what is known (installed) so far, and all caveats apply (YMMV - subject to change - void where prohibited, etc.):

Dynon D180
Garmin SL40
Garmin GTX327
Garmin GPSMAP496
Flightcom 403

Autopilot decision has not been made at this time.

Regards,
Click to expand...

I had assumed the same, since that is what we could see in the pictures. The real question I have is what "options" they are going to allow...

Can we use an Icom instead of the SL40, will they spec a low-budget, day/VFR with ASI/ALT/Compass/Tach/Temp/Oil PSI (no gyro)... and will wheel pants be included?

DJ
 
Phyrcooler said:
I had assumed the same, since that is what we could see in the pictures. The real question I have is what "options" they are going to allow...

Can we use an Icom instead of the SL40, will they spec a low-budget, day/VFR with ASI/ALT/Compass/Tach/Temp/Oil PSI (no gyro)... and will wheel pants be included?

DJ
Click to expand...

Some things were not clear to me in the pics, which was why I pinged Van's about them. Namely, was that a 396 or 496? Was that an SL30 or SL40? Comparing the picture of the SL40 on Garmin's website with the radio in the panel, it looked like the radio had too many buttons/icons to be an SL40. Turns out that the image on the Garmin site is outdated (go figure...). Likewise, the transponder could be either a 327 or 330 with the 327 the more likely. Scott Risan was very gracious and answered the question first thing this AM.

Peace.

N_D
 
Money ... money ... money!

I'm wondering if Van will be able to keep the standard kit for the RV-12 "slightly less than the RV-9A standard kit" as was one of his goals two years ago. The standard kit for the RV-9A is $20,060.00. I'm wondering if the RV-12 will still be less than that figure.

I'm confused because the Ran's S-19 is priced at $26750.00 ( $100 manual; $2100 empannage; $7400 wing kit; $9000 fuselage; $1400 wheel and brake kit; $250 dual brake option; $1200 seat kit; $1800 canopy kit; $3500 Rotax install kit for Rotax 912ULS).

EDIT (The RV-9A is $1600 empennage; $6380 wing; $6080 fuselage; $6000 finishing for a $20,060 total)

I can't image the RV-12 to be priced way less than the S-19. I know I must be missing something somewhere.

I'm hoping to be at Sun 'n Fun on Tuesday, April 8th. with my checkbook and pen in hand and I just wanted to be prepared for what to expect.:rolleyes:
 
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JerryG150 said:
I can't image the RV-12 to be priced way less than the S-19. I know I must be missing something somewhere.
Click to expand...

Didn't see the Van's FWF kit in your estimate... seems like that will put the RV-12 and S-19 prices roughly in line when all is said and done. Seems reasonable given how similar they are on paper.

mcb
 
Newbie_Doo said:
Some things were not clear to me in the pics, which was why I pinged Van's about them.
Click to expand...
I just re-read my previous post, and realized it sounded a bit condescending. :eek: My apologies. I had scanned the panels and made assumptions based on price points - IE: 330 is much more expensive then the 327. However, since the GPS is technically considered a handheld... I wonder if VAN's or the FAA will care whether an E-LSA builder installs a 296 vs. 496?

Any info we can glean from Van's is appreciated as I start to plan.

DJ
 
JerryG150 said:
I'm wondering if Van will be able to keep the standard kit for the RV-12 "slightly less than the RV-9A standard kit" as was one of his goals two years ago. The standard kit for the RV-9A is $20,060.00. I'm wondering if the RV-12 will still be less than that figure.

I'm confused because the Ran's S-19 is priced at $26750.00 ( $100 manual; $2100 empannage; $7400 wing kit; $9000 fuselage; $1400 wheel and brake kit; $250 dual brake option; $1200 seat kit; $1800 canopy kit; $3500 Rotax install kit for Rotax 912ULS).

EDIT (The RV-9A is $1600 empennage; $6380 wing; $6080 fuselage; $6000 finishing for a $20,060 total)

I can't image the RV-12 to be priced way less than the S-19. I know I must be missing something somewhere.

I'm hoping to be at Sun 'n Fun on Tuesday, April 8th. with my checkbook and pen in hand and I just was to be prepared for what to expect.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
I don't think you are missing anything. I can't imagine that the RV-12 will be MORE than the RV-9, and am hopeful that it will actually come in a bit less as was their goal. Even if it is the same as an RV-9... it is still priced thousands less than an S-19. The S-19 does have some awesome seats... but I am not sure if they are worth the cost difference, or the weight penalty they are struggling with.

Edit: Another price point comparison is the Zodiac XL which has been a pretty popular kit. It appears to cost around $19,400 including the FWF for a Jabiru.

DJ
 
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Phyrcooler said:
I don't think you are missing anything. I can't imagine that the RV-12 will be MORE than the RV-9, and am hopeful that it will actually come in a bit less as was their goal. Even if it is the same as an RV-9... it is still priced thousands less than an S-19. The S-19 does have some awesome seats... but I am not sure if they are worth the cost difference, or the weight penalty they are struggling with.

Edit: Another price point comparison is the Zodiac XL which has been a pretty popular kit. It appears to cost around $19,400 including the FWF for a Jabiru.

DJ
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Is the Zodiac available as an E-LSA? Besides, wouldn't you rather have a Van's? I know I would.
 
Rabidsnipe said:
Is the Zodiac available as an E-LSA? Besides, wouldn't you rather have a Van's? I know I would.
Click to expand...
Not sure if it can be built as an E-LSA. Through what appears to be a separate corporation (AMD) they sell a S-LSA version, but I don't know if it qualifies the builder of the 601XL for a E-LSA cert, or if it is E-AB.

And yes... I would prefer Van's! I do like the wing lockers of the 601XL though... I wish that Van's would include that with the RV-12. It is an easy way to carry stuff without messing W&B.

DJ
 
Any idea on the cost of the proposed panel?

Newbie_Doo said:
I traded emails with Scott at Van's regarding panel equipment. Here is what is known (installed) so far, and all caveats apply (YMMV - subject to change - void where prohibited, etc.):

Dynon D180
Garmin SL40
Garmin GTX327
Garmin GPSMAP496
Flightcom 403

Autopilot decision has not been made at this time.

Regards,
Click to expand...


Does anyone have a reasonable estimate on the total cost for this proposed instrument panel?
 
bigbill25 said:
Dynon D180 - $3200
Garmin SL40 - $1650
Garmin GTX327 - $1895
Garmin GPSMAP496 - $2395
Flightcom 403mc - $154 (I'm guessing on the "mc" version)

Total: $9294 (and you still need probes, AirGizmo, wiring...)

--Bill
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Compared to many of the panels we see that run 2 and 3 times that, it isn't bad. I like the D-180 and will probably install as outlined. (although I don't know that I really need to go all the way up to a Garmin496)

However, for those that are looking to build a real basic LSA and contain their build cost, I think it would be advisable for Van's to approve a minimum "steam" package and less costly radio and transponder. That would bring the cost down below $3500 (rounded figures) - maybe less. That's a chunk of change if you are trying to build economically.

JMHO - DJ
 
RV-12 Panel

Perhaps Van can get a "deal" on this instrumentation in quantity ... mount it all in a panel ... with harness ... and offer it as a package "plug in" option ... since he can build 50%, 70% or 92 1/2% being the RV-12 is a S-LSA. Just a thought. :rolleyes:

I just want to get in the air ... tick ... tock ... tick ... tock ...
 
So...

Assuming $20,000 for the airframe and $10,000 for the panel (with GizmoDock, all probes and FF sensor), then even if the Rotax 912ULS is $25,000 this still leaves you with enough for a decent paint job and a cup of coffee from your $60,000 bill. But I think a Starbucks would put you over the top. :)

Compared to what I am seeing on the LSA market so far, it still seems like a decent deal given the competition. (Keeping the discussion focused on JUST the SP/LSA planes for now).

Anybody know what current pricing is on the engine?

N_D
 
Newbie_Doo said:
So...

Assuming $20,000 for the airframe and $10,000 for the panel (with GizmoDock, all probes and FF sensor), then even if the Rotax 912ULS is $25,000 this still leaves you with enough for a decent paint job and a cup of coffee from your $60,000 bill. But I think a Starbucks would put you over the top. :)

Compared to what I am seeing on the LSA market so far, it still seems like a decent deal given the competition. (Keeping the discussion focused on JUST the SP/LSA planes for now).

Anybody know what current pricing is on the engine?

N_D
Click to expand...

On RANS website - they are showing it at $17,325. At the Zodiac site they list it at $19,255. So... figure 'round 20K!

DJ
 
Construction Log?

If one builds the RV-12 as an ELSA and does copy Van's SLSA, will it still be necessary to maintain a "builder's log" on the internet or maintain any type of log for the FAA to examine? (no 51%-49% rule)

Either way, can anyone recommend a "builder's log" program that runs on Mac OS 10.4 ?

Over the last two years while contemplating building, I've seen some great logs posted and I am hoping there will be some RV-12 logs, with pictures and suggestions and tips, that might help first time builders.
 
If you build as an E-LSA kit, you will be given assembly instructions. You must be able to show that you followed them explicitly.
BTW, the kit manufacturer will be listed as the builder.
 
I asked a few questions of Van's about the RV-12 and Ken Scott gave me some answers:

My questions are summarized, his responses are verbatim.

Q: Will lights and autopilot be installed on the S-LSA prototype and will they be E-LSA options?
A: Undecided. N412RV may well be the SLSA prototype, but I have no idea if lights etc would be installed when it goes for certification.

Q: How will the kits be structured?
A: Really don't know. Lots of ideas are wending their way thru the system, but no absolute decisions. RV-12 may well be "sub-divided" a bit differently than our other 2 seaters, but it will be sold in subkits.

Q: How well will you be able to meet demand when the kit is first released?
A: By the time we accept orders we should be ready to ship what we've accepted money for. Naturally, that requires some guess work on our part -- how many, how soon, etc. -- so I guess time will tell how good our estimates were. A very large percentage of the airplane is produced in our shop -- there's very little outsourced fiberglass, for instance -- so we can turn up the wick pretty quickly if the market demands it.

No analysis provided; that's what the forum is for.
 
JerryG150 said:
Either way, can anyone recommend a "builder's log" program that runs on Mac OS 10.4 ?
Click to expand...

This is getting off topic for this thread, but even though I'm a Windows guy, I would love to see a fully web-based log. It's nice to have access where ever you are...

ON TOPIC INFO: It has been a very nice morning here in Portland. I would bet N412RV made it in the air today...

--Bill
 
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Mel said:
Remember, if the aircraft at any time does not meet LSA parameters, it cannot be brought back into LSA ever.
Click to expand...

Mel,

I've been thinking about this and have a question. I'm a private pilot and I have my 3rd class medical. If I have an E-LSA RV-12, what would happen if I take the ground adjustable prop and adjust it for max cruise performance and the resulting speed is over 120 knots? Is the plane now considered non-airworthy in the eyes of the FAA? If "caught" doing this, would it then be impossible to ever get the plane airworthy again, even if it means just adjusting the prop back?

Very interesting implications in the E-LSA vs. E-AB...

--Bill
 
bigbill25 said:
Mel,

I've been thinking about this and have a question. I'm a private pilot and I have my 3rd class medical. If I have an E-LSA RV-12, what would happen if I take the ground adjustable prop and adjust it for max cruise performance and the resulting speed is over 120 knots? Is the plane now considered non-airworthy in the eyes of the FAA? If "caught" doing this, would it then be impossible to ever get the plane airworthy again, even if it means just adjusting the prop back?

Very interesting implications in the E-LSA vs. E-AB...

--Bill
Click to expand...
Technically this is true. If you modify the aircraft so that it no longer meets light-sport parameters, the E-LSA airworthiness becomes void. By definition of a light-sport aircraft FAR part 1.1, the first statement ..."Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since original certification, has continued to meet the following:..."
 
Mel said:
Technically this is true. If you modify the aircraft so that it no longer meets light-sport parameters, the E-LSA airworthiness becomes void. By definition of a light-sport aircraft FAR part 1.1, the first statement ..."Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since original certification, has continued to meet the following:..."
Click to expand...

Let's say for a moment that this happens. You register as E-LSA and do modify the plane somehow that takes it out of LSA criteria. Do you basically own a lawn ornament? :eek:
 
That's technically correct. Light-sport was not designed to be experimental in that respect. If you want to experiment that way, you need to stick with experimental amateur-built.
 
Pitot Tube

What's the hole in the centre of the spinner? Is it the pitot tube?

Cheers...Keith
 
I believe that is correct, remember reading it previously but cannot relocate the source. Does that preclude using the Dynon pitot, which includes angle of attack sensing to the EFIS? If not, will the Dynon be able to show the AOA indication?
 
To use the Dynon pitot, you would have to mount it on the wing and it would have to be disconnected when you remove the wings. No, the AOA will not work with the pitot in the spinner.
 
They mention in the roll-out announcement that they did add a stall-warning vane in the wing that automatically plugged in when the wing was installed. I suppose it would be possible for a similar hook-up to be done for a wing mounted Dynon pitot. Interesting to see if Van's does it on the S-LSA or if it is something individuals would have to do on their own if building as an E-AB.

DJ
 
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