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I think requesting a chargeback on your credit card will be quite an uphill battle.
The bank won’t get involved in judging what makes a part acceptable or not. From their perspective Vans I think will be able to provide documentation that it was a valid purchase and that they delivered the goods. As far as the objective paper trail goes, Vans has a report that says these blue parts are fit for purpose. So to an outsider it looks like your word against their data. Not a very strong position for you.
I’d be very cautious filing such a large chargeback that might get seen as frivolous. Don’t ruin your relationship with your bank.

Similarly, purchase protection on the credit card will want proof of damage. It probably hard to make that argument plus purchase protection is usually limited to 90 or 120 days, so no luck there.
Extended warranty excludes motorized vehicles. Arguing that your aluminum parts from a company called Vans Aircraft don’t fall under that exclusion will be rather hard.

Bottom line, your bank probably won’t be able to help you.

As to why they aren’t making laser cut pets again, do you really think engineering is the deciding factor here? Or is it maybe the negative opinion customers have about these parts?
Look at this thread. LCP are non-viable because customers won’t want them anytime soon. There are hundreds of comments on here showing that.
Taking the stop of LCP production as a sign of the parts being unfit in a technical way is probably confirmation bias.

I guess you’re right regarding that being an uphill battle. I’m just annoyed by their lack of response. It just feels totally wrong to me to have all these parts with burn marks / uneven holes and being told to just put it into a plane after months of waiting and being told not to. I do not want a plane with these parts in spots you can’t inspect knowing that cracks form after dimpling.
 
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Actually, it was a material science firm that specializes in analysis of metal parts and assemblies. This has nothing to do with DARs. Airworthiness inspections simply don't go to this level of detail and if they did, we should not be trusting DARs to be assessing issues like these. It is the builder that has to make these decisions and for us that do not understand material engineering and stress testing, we need to trust the designer of the kit. This is pretty binary. You either trust the thousands of material decisions that they made on your behalf or you don't. Don't get the logic of focusing in on just one of those decisions and declaring it was wrong, but trusting the other 999. If yoiu truly think that the designers are getting it wrong on this issue, how do you not go back and second guess the 999 other design decisions that they made for you?

And if you’ve dimpled and/or riveted any of these lcp. You’d see what the issue is.
As an aviation professional, many times over. I will not put the lcp I have dimpled and seen crack, into my plane. Not you, material engineer or any one at vans will convince me any different.
 
Actually, it was a material science firm that specializes in analysis of metal parts and assemblies. This has nothing to do with DARs. Airworthiness inspections simply don't go to this level of detail and if they did, we should not be trusting DARs to be assessing issues like these; The FAA has Engineers for that. It is the builder that has to make these decisions and for us that do not understand material engineering and stress testing, we need to trust the designer of the kit. This is pretty binary. You either trust the thousands of material decisions that they made on your behalf or you don't. Don't get the logic of focusing in on just one of those decisions and declaring it was wrong, but trusting the other 999. If yoiu truly think that the designers are getting it wrong on this issue, how do you not go back and second guess the 999 other design decisions that they made for you?

I'll stop now.

I agree with that. You either trust Vans or you don’t. Vans says these parts are good to go, and standby them. I think we’re on dodgy ground to then say no they are not and we want free replacements.
 
And if you’ve dimpled and/or riveted any of these lcp. You’d see what the issue is.
As an aviation professional, many times over. I will not put the lcp I have dimpled and seen crack, into my plane. Not you, material engineer or any one at vans will convince me any different.

I also agree with that. Each builder must make their own decision. It’s their aircraft after all.

My decision to replace all my LCP parts is driven by the fact they are not in an assembly, and total cost of replacement is around $300.

If I was stood looking at taking apart an entire assembly, I might come to a different conclusion.
 
I agree with that. You either trust Vans or you don’t. Vans says these parts are good to go, and standby them. I think we’re on dodgy ground to then say no they are not and we want free replacements.

I say no and paid!! That’s how strongly I feel about these lcp.
I’m out. Good luck all.
 
And if you’ve dimpled and/or riveted any of these lcp. You’d see what the issue is.
As an aviation professional, many times over. I will not put the lcp I have dimpled and seen crack, into my plane. Not you, material engineer or any one at vans will convince me any different.

+ 1
The holy spirit may come down from heaven and tell me that LCP parts are good, but I will not use a single LCP part in my plane!

I haven't received my QB fuselage yet and I don't trust Vans to include LCP parts. Van's inventory control is not good! They have assured me that there are no LCP parts in my tail kit and I have 27 LCP parts here...

How can I trust now? In the QB fuselage it will be difficult or almost impossible to check and be 100% sure.

I have requested an official document certifying that there are no LCP parts on my QB fuselage. Otherwise they can sell it to the next person on the list who has blind trust in Van's engineers...
 
For me I was thinking the replace list would have stayed small, but it didn't, and my build, my completed emp kit has to be dismantled to repair, and if I'm going to that level, might as well fix it all, and now it's better to start over from a build time, rework risk, and future risk perspective. But that's just me and my status in the build. Others are at different points.

The engineering recommendation to replace is what needs to be followed in my opinion, and because on my build that list and impact is large, I don't have a choice.

I was hoping that replacement was only a few parts, and I would have built on. But with the higher number and the impact on my QB fuse and wings that are sitting in OR, I've got a different direction now, and that leads to new non lcp parts.

I hope others that can still replace are able to and without much effort and damage.
 
+ 1
The holy spirit may come down from heaven and tell me that LCP parts are good, but I will not use a single LCP part in my plane!

I haven't received my QB fuselage yet and I don't trust Vans to include LCP parts. Van's inventory control is not good! They have assured me that there are no LCP parts in my tail kit and I have 27 LCP parts here...

How can I trust now? In the QB fuselage it will be difficult or almost impossible to check and be 100% sure.

I have requested an official document certifying that there are no LCP parts on my QB fuselage. Otherwise they can sell it to the next person on the list who has blind trust in Van's engineers...

That’s your call, however, you already put your “blind trust” in the engineers when you ordered the kit.

They data is out the solution is forming. It is now up to YOU, the builder, to determine your path.

Reading some of these comments, I would expect some immediate partial built kit sales, which will get snapped up by others in th queue. Others will soldier on.

In the end, it is an individual decision; make your decision and move forward, one way or the other.
 
I hope you are right and I am wrong. They have indeed slow played in the past, and perhaps that is what we see here as well. Hahahaha... I appreciate your lightheartedness. :) For what it is worth, I don't own a pitchfork. Instead, I wield a keen keyboard and a wicked pen.

It doesn't seem like they slow played, or failed to communicate this...at least for the past several months. It looked to me like a lot of wishful thinking and ignoring their actual words. The current approach was predictable based on their comments and the practical limits of running a business.

https://vansairforce.net/community/showpost.php?p=1696682&postcount=109
 
33% off punched parts damaged during disassembly is not great, I admit, but that very well could be at-cost. Part of me says Van's should eat the cost of all assemblies damaged during my disassembly, but that would incentivize me to do a sloppy job of disassembly, which would not be fair to Van's. At-cost replacement for such parts is, IMHO, a fair middle ground.

I wish I could agree with you. We really don't know what Vans costs are, and just how much pain they are taking for the team. I wish they could share some info on this. I don't think they need to open the books, but is this cost, and if so, is that kit cost, or individual part cost? Either way, shouldn't they bear some more of the burden? After all, we are being asked to purchaser replacement parts, provide all the labor, consumables, etc. It doesn't even look like they will be providing rivets. I know that is small potatoes, but that's the exact point. Why not include them? Now everyone has to (do the same work to) calculate what they will need, and add them to the order (and pay).

It is all very clear what we (the builders) will have to contribute to make this right, but we really don't know how hard a hit Vans is taking on this. It would go a long way to making me feel right about this, if I felt the team was equally contributing, and if not, why.
 
Hard to say. If Vans has to eat the entire cost of this cluster$%&# that might mean the end of the company IMO. I think we're gonna see class action lawsuits out of this and who knows what else. We're looking at years to resolve this issue based just on the size of the problem. I mean how do you even begin to fix all of these QB kits???

So.... how badly do you want to build an RV?? Kinda hard to continue building if the company ceases to exist.

Folks on here screaming (behind anonymous screen names BTW) about how they're not paying a dime to fix this should consider the bigger picture IMO. Just my .02

I'd rather pay a little more to finish the project than to see the whole thing burn to the ground. And yeah, if I had paid for an RV-14 kit advertised as "pre-punched" I'd expect pre-punched parts. So at a minimum, Vans should make that right at zero cost to those builders.

Community is key here IMO. Builders can and should reach out for help, especially if you have to disassemble and replace. I'm pretty good with a rivet gun and bucking bar these days and I can drill out rivets with the best of them. I'm in NE Ohio and can't build on until I get new parts so feel free to reach out to me for assistance if you are in the area and need help with the extra work.
 
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:mad::mad::mad:. How can you trust a company prepared to say this and not follow through. On a legal note….punched parts not provided…..written promises made…..parts unfit for purpose no matter what an engineer says….remember the very structures that are holding your aircraft together are compromised. What SB’s will come out in the future…what will your lemon be worth….none of you would want to touch one of these LCP aircraft with a ten foot barge pole…would you?.if LCP parts are ok then why change back to punched….(because they are sub standard) acceptable to use….not a chance…..then you have to pay again to make it right. Like me there will be so many unhappy customers out there not sing this companies praises and in fact quite the opposite depending on how we are treated. As customers they do not value us at all. If my faulty parts are replaced I’ll slowly start to fall in love with the project again….if I have to pay again to make my aircraft 100% right as it should be and what I have paid for already I’m sure the bad taste and disdain will linger far past finishing the project leaving me with a project that should have been one of the greatest building achievements in my life nothing more than a stressful chore. For me this whole experience of building my own aircraft was brilliant…..now it’s turning into a disaster and I’m supposed to be left with a half priced LCP lemon or pay again and wait god knows how long to make it right. It’s going to be hard to fall in love with this project again if I have to go down this path.
 
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When it's just not worth saving

Like Brian, I have some completed assemblies (flaps and elevators) where most parts are in the 'red' category, except the skins and some relatively cheap brackets.

When I filled out the survey I suggested defining a minimum threshold of 'red' parts in an assembly to declare it 'beyond saving'.

The 'list' has notes saying Van's will replace Aileron and Flap components if they are damaged during rework, but c'mon, drill out every rivet to basically save the skin, six brackets and 2 nut plates, likely mangling the skin in the process and getting a 'free' replacement anyway?

As others have said, many of these empennage and control surface assemblies have proseal in the trailing edges, foam ribs, etc. and if the surfaces were properly prepared, are not coming apart without some cosmetic damage to the thin skins. :mad:
 
Hard to say. If Vans has to eat the entire cost of this cluster$%&# that might mean the end of the company IMO. I think we're gonna see class action lawsuits out of this and who knows what else. We're looking at years to resolve this issue based just on the size of the problem. I mean how do you even begin to fix all of these QB kits???

So.... how badly do you want to build an RV?? Kinda hard to continue building if the company ceases to exist.

Folks on here screaming (behind anonymous screen names BTW) about how they're not paying a dime to fix this should consider the bigger picture IMO. Just my .02

I'd rather pay a little more to finish the project then to see the whole thing burn to the ground. And yeah, if I had paid for an RV-14 kit advertised as "pre-punched" I'd expect pre-punched parts. So at a minimum, Vans should make that right at zero cost to those builders.

Community is key here IMO. Builders can and should reach out for help, especially if you have to disassemble and replace. I'm pretty good with a rivet gun and bucking bar these days and I can drill out rivets with the best of them. I'm in NE Ohio and can't build on until I get new parts so feel free to reach out to me for assistance if you are in the area and need help with the extra work.

Glenn Evans. Palmerston North New Zealand. A320 Captain. To add my name and not just my VAF non de plume. And why should I pay again for faulty parts?
 
Community is key here IMO. Builders can and should reach out for help, especially if you have to disassemble and replace. I'm pretty good with a rivet gun and bucking bar these days and I can drill out rivets with the best of them.

This is an important point. I only built the 'easy' RV, but picked up some skills along the way and would like to stay in practice for the next build. I actually prefer building over flying so I miss it now that I'm 'done'. I would be glad to lend an extra set of hands to anyone working through the setback in the central California area.
 
:mad::mad::mad:. How can you trust a company prepared to say this and not follow through. On a legal note….punched parts not provided…..written promises made…..parts unfit for purpose no matter what an engineer says….remember the very structures that are holding your aircraft together are compromised. What SB’s will come out in the future…what will your lemon be worth….none of you would want to touch one of these LCP aircraft with a ten foot barge pole…would you?.if LCP parts are ok then why change back to punched….(because they are sub standard) acceptable to use….not a chance…..then you have to pay again to make it right. Like me there will be so many unhappy customers out there not sing this companies praises and in fact quite the opposite depending on how we are treated. As customers they do not value us at all. If my faulty parts are replaced I’ll slowly start to fall in love with the project again….if I have to pay again to make my aircraft 100% right as it should be and what I have paid for already I’m sure the bad taste and disdain will linger far past finishing the project leaving me with a project that should have been one of the greatest building achievements in my life nothing more than a stressful chore. For me this whole experience of building my own aircraft was brilliant…..now it’s turning into a disaster and I’m supposed to be left with a half priced LCP lemon or pay again and wait god knows how long to make it right. It’s going to be hard to fall in love with this project again if I have to go down this path.

Oh, there is SO much in there I should respond to...but won't.

I will leave it at this: It sounds as if you have made you decision; put your kit up for sale, and maybe seek another vendor...but can you trust those engineers?
 
That’s your call, however, you already put your “blind trust” in the engineers when you ordered the kit.

They data is out the solution is forming. It is now up to YOU, the builder, to determine your path.

Reading some of these comments, I would expect some immediate partial built kit sales, which will get snapped up by others in th queue. Others will soldier on.

In the end, it is an individual decision; make your decision and move forward, one way or the other.


I placed my blind trust in a company with 50 years of experience and a happy community around it. Everything that happened with the LCP parts is not my fault! Why should I pay it?

I suppose there is also the right to return an order, right? Especially if I haven't received it yet and Van's is not fulfilling what it promised...

Maybe there are a lot of rich people around here, but that's not my case. This project was going to be the project of my life! A great effort and a large part of my savings invested!

If the company has to close, I will be very sorry, but I will not be the one to pay for it to survive. They haven't given me anything!
 
I have the same issue and when I go back to the page, nothing is saved. I emailed Greg.

The list of part for an RV7 fuselage was scant. The good news is that it appears that the part I need are not expensive. It may be easier to forego the process and just order replacements.
It doesn't work when I do it from using Safari on my Mac; it works when using Chrome on my Surface Pro.

I hope it helps others.
 
One of the interesting outcomes from this is the acceptance by Vans of cracks in dimpled holes. As a new builder, I had planned to spend hundreds of hours meticulously deburring each and every hole to avoid cracks when dimpling. For 50 years builders were told to avoid cracks at all cost.

Since the majority of laser cut parts have now been deemed acceptable for use by Vans, knowing a good portion of the holes in these parts will have cracks after dimpling, I will not be fretting over deburring the holes. I'll still do it. I just won't be trying to make each hole perfect since it apparently doesn't really matter.
 
Community is key here IMO. Builders can and should reach out for help, especially if you have to disassemble and replace. I'm pretty good with a rivet gun and bucking bar these days and I can drill out rivets with the best of them. I'm in NE Ohio and can't build on until I get new parts so feel free to reach out to me for assistance if you are in the area and need help with the extra work.

I think you are 100% right on this part, and appreciate your offer. I think I must be going through the five stages of loss – denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. I'm somewhere between anger and acceptance. As I look over my 90% completed Emp, I'm starting to think through how I should disassemble some of the structures. The first one I started seriously looking at is the rear fuselage, and how to get the bulkheads out. We should start a thread or two for procedures and options on disassembly and reassembly. Would be great if Vans could contribute. In a perfect world, that's what a team would do.
 
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LCP. Vans need to stand behind it's product.

I have a QB RV8A Fuse kit with LCP's. I'm not disassembling and replacing parts. I paid for the QB kit I want want what I paid for. This is not not a good look for Vans.

Nelson S. Cardella, A&P IA
www.cabinamaintenance.com
[email protected]
[email protected]
704-301-3852


+ 1
The holy spirit may come down from heaven and tell me that LCP parts are good, but I will not use a single LCP part in my plane!

I haven't received my QB fuselage yet and I don't trust Vans to include LCP parts. Van's inventory control is not good! They have assured me that there are no LCP parts in my tail kit and I have 27 LCP parts here...

How can I trust now? In the QB fuselage it will be difficult or almost impossible to check and be 100% sure.

I have requested an official document certifying that there are no LCP parts on my QB fuselage. Otherwise they can sell it to the next person on the list who has blind trust in Van's engineers...
 
It doesn't seem like they slow played, or failed to communicate this...at least for the past several months. It looked to me like a lot of wishful thinking and ignoring their actual words. The current approach was predictable based on their comments and the practical limits of running a business.

https://vansairforce.net/community/showpost.php?p=1696682&postcount=109

I dunno... Refusing to acknowledge the issue at all for nearly a year seems slow to me.

For my part, I have not ignored a thing they've said. I noticed the precatory language used in the updates, hence my skepticism through this process. Along the way, I heard Greg say they would replace laser cut parts, if requested, free of charge. And on Sep 6, Van's stated in their update that they would replace laser cut parts, if requested, free of charge.

IMHO, the only wishful thinking in play is Van's hoping those of us affected by this are going to simply accept that they have gone back on their own words.
 
Oh, there is SO much in there I should respond to...but won't.

I will leave it at this: It sounds as if you have made you decision; put your kit up for sale, and maybe seek another vendor...but can you trust those engineers?

I'm replying to this post, but I've seen this a few times.

No, I don't put blind trust into the engineers - like you, I'm an aerospace engineer, and we're all only human. These are the same engineers who made the original serious errors in judgement, supplier management, QA, part tracking, and initial disposition.

Vans choosing to embark down this path, risking their engineering and customer support reputation for some savings on part replacement, is far more damaging in the long run than simply replacing a few thousand parts.

A text-only 5-pg report is nowhere close to the engineering disposition required to change a lifetime of guidance on (un)acceptable cracks in a sheet metal airplane. Again, IMO, the test program was good money after bad - that money should have 100% been spent on part replacement first. With the variation in LCP we've all seen, how can I possibly know that my parts match what was tested?

Finally, these engineers have a financial incentive to call as many of these parts good as possible, so that needs to be taken into account as we make our own judgement on acceptability. How'd that work out for Boeing?

We're now in the position where we have to pick and choose which parts of Section 5 we pay attention to, and which ones we don't. Might as well start a religion with sects and all. Should I deburr holes? Why? Waste of time if cracks in dimpled fasteners don't matter in most of the structure. Maybe not even final drill? How bad can the tearing be from just running a dimple die through? Where does it end?

The "just trust the engineers" is an appeal to authority, not an actual position. If Vans gains the dual reputation of 1) violating long standing build guidance when convenient, and 2) breaking faith with their customers, the few dozen parts I'm asking for are the least of their worries. And just the start of ours.
 
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Oh, there is SO much in there I should respond to...but won't.

I will leave it at this: It sounds as if you have made you decision; put your kit up for sale, and maybe seek another vendor...but can you trust those engineers?

Please do respond Bob. You obviously have something on your mind. And I’m not selling out of the project or I’ll do even more money so that is a rather silly response. I’ll finish it but not as a lemon….then I might sell it….
 
To provide some balance to this argument, Vans just spent a whole lot of time and $ with some material science experts who say that many of the parts you want to replace ARE NOT faulty. Why should Vans provide them for free just because you feel uncomfortable with them. I realize that you think they are faulty, but the experts disagree. IMHO, Vans effort here could save a lot of time and effort for those that have already assembled a lot of parts. They could have spent the $ on shipping all new parts, but instead chose to spend the $ to collect a real assessment of the risk these marginal parts would create. This seems to me to have been the better choice.

I get the frustration of the position reversal, but we need to look at the big picture here. They jumped out too early with their promises and this is just another communications blunder in a seemingly long list of them. I'll state one last time, if you don't trust the engineers desisgning these things, you are insane to fly in one as they have made thousands of decisions just like the one above on your kit.

Larry

Simple exercise.

Let's say you want to build an RV-14A, and you are prepared to purchase empennage, wing, and fuselage kits. The kit manufacturer will allow you to choose between two sets of kits. Each set sells for the same price.

Kit set A consists of parts that have been produced using methods that are widely accepted throughout the aviation industry.

Kit set B includes 316 parts that have been produced using a method that the aviation industry scoffs at, and, as a bonus, the parts are known to have a crack rate in excess of 90% when dimpled.

Which set do you choose, and why?

By the way, I was not given that choice.
 
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Here is my survey response to Vans... You may or may not care, but I really want Vans to step up and follow through on their promise that LCP will be replaced at no cost.

******
All of the riveting on my tail kit is complete. I have not started anything on my wing yet. I've been a mechanical engineer for 25 years and worked for an aircraft OEM for part of that time, just to give you an idea where I am coming from.

The question above in the survey asking if I have inspected my parts yet should have a third option that "I have inspected what I can, but there are some I cannot tell or get access to".

I'm disappointed and frustrated that the original statement from July 4th "Vans will replace all laser cut parts dimpled by the customer" is no longer being followed and Vans now requires some of those parts to be paid for by the customer. You need to follow through on your own words and commitment.

I am expecting Vans to cover shipping of replacement parts. This has not been mentioned anywhere, though.

I'm also frustrated that not all replacement parts are going to have the same priority. Have you thought through how parts will actually be used? For example, if I need to repair or rebuild an elevator, but I only get a portion of the replacement parts and have to wait even longer for the rest, then I can't do anything. I've already lost so much time.

The portal seems easy to use, but when do you need the order finalized? Also, what if I miss requesting a part (some of these parts we won't know we need until we start the rework process)? Will I still get the discounted price?

The "heavily discounted" price for other parts appears to only be 33% discount. That is likely just the kit price. This is not a big enough discount. You don't have to lose money on these parts, but Vans should not be making money on these parts. These parts should be sold at cost.

Communication has been poor. Vans never did share a recording of the presentation at Oskhosh (which Greg told me Vans would do when talking to him face to face). The final engineering assessment document had much less detail than what Ryan discussed at Oshkosh. For me to fully accept the "acceptable for use" classification on parts I would like to see more information presented. A video by Ryan finishing what he started in Oshkosh would do it for me. If that happens I'll request much fewer parts.

I still don't know if my elevator spars are laser cut or not. The part identification guide document only helps if you haven't used the part yet. If you have removed blue vinyl and deburred edges or primed, then what? Without more guidance I'll end up requesting more parts from Vans out of an abundance of caution.

I will likely need to rebuild my entire elevators due to the rear spar and the foam ribs being pro-sealed in place. It would really help me if Vans was able to give a parts list for each complete assembly so I don't miss anything. Ryan said this would be addressed when I spoke to him in person at Oshkosh, but I've seen nothing about this.

I have seen no guidance for a part listed as "recommended for replacement" that is already riveted in place with no cracks. Is this part still "recommended for replacement"? Again, more information about the test results would make it easier for me to leave some of these parts in place and not request replacements.

It is starting to look like I will lose a full year (or more) of build time between the time I originally spent building parts plus the time waiting to order replacement parts plus the time to repair my finished components plus the time waiting for replacement parts. In the mean time all prices will likely continue to go up. Even if I wanted to quit now, no one would by kits from me.

This just sucks so bad.
 
Agreed, we are only humans..

100% agree with you. They made bad decisions (chasing profits), now they need to pay the price for those decisions. They need to stand behind their product, end of discussion.

BTW, Good example of Boeing 737 Max. The engineers and the FAA signed off on it. Two crashes later... hmm..

This has to do with accountability, responsibly and trust, period. Vans need to earn back our trust. They can start that process by replacing all of the LCPs (Laser Cut Parts) and replacing the quick build kits they made unusable in my opinion at no cost to customers\builders.

Nelson S. Cardella, A&P IA
www.cabinamaintenance.com
[email protected]
[email protected]
704-301-3852

I'm replying to this post, but I've seen this a few times.

No, I don't put blind trust into the engineers - like you, I'm an aerospace engineer, and we're all only human. These are the same engineers who made the original serious errors in judgement, supplier management, QA, part tracking, and initial disposition.

Vans choosing to embark down this path, risking their engineering and customer support reputation for some savings on part replacement, is far more damaging in the long run than simply replacing a few thousand parts.

A text-only 5-pg report is nowhere close to the engineering disposition required to change a lifetime of guidance on (un)acceptable cracks in a sheet metal airplane. Again, IMO, the test program was good money after bad - that money should have 100% been spent on part replacement first. With the variation in LCP we've all seen, how can I possibly know that my parts match what was tested?

Finally, these engineers have a financial incentive to call as many of these parts good as possible, so that needs to be taken into account as we make our own judgement on acceptability. How'd that work out for Boeing?

We're now in the position where we have to pick and choose which parts of Section 5 we pay attention to, and which ones we don't. Might as well start a religion with sects and all. Should I deburr holes? Why? Waste of time if cracks in dimpled fasteners don't matter in most of the structure. Maybe not even final drill? How bad can the tearing be from just running a dimple die through? Where does it end?

The "just trust the engineers" is an appeal to authority, not an actual position. If Vans gains the dual reputation of 1) violating long standing build guidance when convenient, and 2) breaking faith with their customers, the few dozen parts I'm asking for are the least of their worries. And just the start of ours.
 
I'm replying to this post, but I've seen this a few times.

No, I don't put blind trust into the engineers - like you, I'm an aerospace engineer, and we're all only human. These are the same engineers who made the original serious errors in judgement, supplier management, QA, part tracking, and initial disposition.

Vans choosing to embark down this path, risking their engineering and customer support reputation for some savings on part replacement, is far more damaging in the long run than simply replacing a few thousand parts.

A text-only 5-pg report is nowhere close to the engineering disposition required to change a lifetime of guidance on (un)acceptable cracks in a sheet metal airplane. Again, IMO, the test program was good money after bad - that money should have 100% been spent on part replacement first. With the variation in LCP we've all seen, how can I possibly know that my parts match what was tested?

Finally, these engineers have a financial incentive to call as many of these parts good as possible, so that needs to be taken into account as we make our own judgement on acceptability. How'd that work out for Boeing?

We're now in the position where we have to pick and choose which parts of Section 5 we pay attention to, and which ones we don't. Might as well start a religion with sects and all. Should I deburr holes? Why? Waste of time if cracks in dimpled fasteners don't matter in most of the structure. Maybe not even final drill? How bad can the tearing be from just running a dimple die through? Where does it end?

The "just trust the engineers" is an appeal to authority, not an actual position. If Vans gains the dual reputation of 1) violating long standing build guidance when convenient, and 2) breaking faith with their customers, the few dozen parts I'm asking for are the least of their worries. And just the start of ours.

I wish I could write like you….valid valid valid. Thanks for sharing.
 
Community is key here IMO. Builders can and should reach out for help, especially if you have to disassemble and replace. I'm pretty good with a rivet gun and bucking bar these days and I can drill out rivets with the best of them. I'm in NE Ohio and can't build on until I get new parts so feel free to reach out to me for assistance if you are in the area and need help with the extra work.

This is an important point. I only built the 'easy' RV, but picked up some skills along the way and would like to stay in practice for the next build. I actually prefer building over flying so I miss it now that I'm 'done'. I would be glad to lend an extra set of hands to anyone working through the setback in the central California area.

This is awesome, guys. My skills with a rivet gun and bucking bar are fairly green, but I would gladly contribute muscle & bad humor if doing so would help other builders work through issues in their builds.
 
Identifying LCPs in QB kits

After the Sept 26 update, we decided to move beyond denial, and inspect the QB Fuselage that has been sitting in our garage, untouched.

For the parts sitting on the shelf (i.e. not built into the assembly by Vans), we found 9 LCPs, some of them looked truly ugly. But not all of them. Some LCPs looked kind-of ok. But that's the easy part.

We then dove into the Fuselage, focusing on the red "recommended replacement" parts. We did not find any dimple cracking so far. We did not find "truly ugly" parts in the stucture. But frankly, since all parts in the assembly are deburred, primed and frequently already riveted, even with having Van's ID guide and examples of LCP and punched parts right next to it, it is almost impossible to make a certain identification. We found some parts that we were 80% sure they are LCP. Some other parts we are 90% sure they are punched.

Herein lies the problem: With Van's categorize some parts as "recommended replacement" we need some path to make sure we don't have these parts built in. Otherwise I don't know how I as manufacturer can deem the plane airworthy.

PS: From what I have seen on our kit, it seems clear that not all LCPs are born equally. So far I have not heard from Van's about variations in batches of LCPs. That that would be improtant information to have, as it affects both part longevity and how to identify them as LCP.
 
I guess you’re right regarding that being an uphill battle. I’m just annoyed by their lack of response. It just feels totally wrong to me to have all these parts with burn marks / uneven holes and being told to just put it into a plane after months of waiting and being told not to. I do not want a plane with these parts in spots you can’t inspect knowing that cracks form after dimpling.

I hear you loud and clear. I feel much the same.

With regard to an uphill chargeback battle...

I don't think the battle is as uphill as suggested. The key limiting factor may be your bank's willingness to initiate a chargeback after 120 days (given the amounts in question, they seem to be willing...). This issue appears to land squarely in the realm of false advertising (falsified quality). Van's advertised punched parts and then delivered laser cut parts - without notice or prior agreement - for more than a year before the functional efficacy of laser cut parts was evaluated. Subsequent testing of laser cut parts has demonstrated clearly that some of the parts are not fit for purpose. Think: "Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus."
 
I wish I could write like you….valid valid valid. Thanks for sharing.

No it isn't valid.

Millions of people all over the world put their blind trust in engineers every single day.

Every time you get in a car, on a train, boat, plane, turn on a washing machine, or dishwasher you put your blind trust in the fact the engineer have done their job properly.

You trust the pilot of that airliner your flying in, you trust the captain of the cruise ship your sailing in.

You may or may not trust Vans engineers, that’s up to you. But don’t start saying people shouldn’t trust professionals to do their jobs or we’re all in a whole world of pain.
 
From what I have seen on our kit, it seems clear that not all LCPs are born equally. So far I have not heard from Van's about variations in batches of LCPs. That that would be improtant information to have, as it affects both part longevity and how to identify them as LCP.

You won't get that information because they simply don't have it. What you need to wrap your head around is that Van's operates zero parts traceability.

The barcode on a Van's part label simply says, "W-709-R". When the barcode is scanned as the part is put into your crate, it simply records that a W-709-R has left inventory and deducts one from the live total. No person and no system knows that the particular part went to you.

Under a simple traceability system, as you might expect a manufacturing company to operate, the bardcode might say: "W-709-R serial 00002198 made mm/dd/yy by method X at facility Y" and then when the barcode is scanned during crating, as well as updating inventory, the particular part with all associated information would be recorded as having gone to customer A as part of kit B on date C.

Van's have absolutely no idea who got what. All they know is when they first had them in inventory - presumably they get that information from good inwards records - and from that you can infer which kits are 'clean' and which are not. For those that are not, they could have any combination of parts. There is simply no way to tell who got what, who got things from certain batches, etc. It's all totally random. An otherwise clean QB wing could be contaminated by a single laser cut part somewhere inaccessible, and even if you could see it you couldn't identify it for sure. Or it could be totally clean, or have laser cut parts in all possible locations, or any combination in between you can possibly think of. There is an almost infinite number of scenarios.

This is why they are trying so hard to limit the scope of the extra production and what they have to re-ship for free, because every single customer who received a kit within the (wide) date window could, if they wish, request a replacement for every single part on the laser-cut list for that kit, whether theirs were laser cut or not. Van's would not realistically be able to contest the request, because they have no data. Some kits have very long lists of laser-cut parts. Customers seeking to take advantage of the situation could obtain enough replacement parts to get fairly close to a whole new assembly, even if they did not need one or intend to replace theirs. With a bit of extra random part purchasing, you could get close to having a few extra airframes out there in the wild which carry no Van's build number at all and are made mainly of free replacement parts. The ramifications are mind-boggling.

For us standard builders who have complete or partially complete assemblies, if you didn't keep inventory records / photos and you can't remember what had blue plastic and what didn't then you're kind of screwed, assuming you primed and thus didn't leave laser cut parts identifiable.

I am far luckier than many. In my contaminated -7 empennage kit, I kept a record of what had blue plastic and what didn't. This is because I expected everything to have blue plastic (my only prior experience being the practice kits) and complained to Van's when some of it didn't as well as the general state of the parts. I was told brusquely to go away, that the parts were perfectly acceptable, and that the reason for a lack of blue plastic was because they were laser cut. Happily, I kept that handwritten list and so had it to refer back to. But that is sheer dumb luck, because I was impertinent enough to complain about the parts in the first place. If I'd not done that, I'd be guessing.
 
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No it isn't valid.

Millions of people all over the world put their blind trust in engineers every single day.

Every time you get in a car, on a train, boat, plane, turn on a washing machine, or dishwasher you put your blind trust in the fact the engineer have done their job properly.

You trust the pilot of that airliner your flying in, you trust the captain of the cruise ship your sailing in.

You may or may not trust Vans engineers, that’s up to you. But don’t start saying people shouldn’t trust professionals to do their jobs or we’re all in a whole world of pain.

It’s absolutely valid. You are way off the mark. I am an airline pilot. Should my passengers trust me? Yes…why? I am trained and I am ACCOUNTABLE. Is he saying have no trust in anyone? No of course not. We have a serious issue here. Cracks in your aircraft….they do testing over several months to limit their exposure to cost and not rectify the issue. MAKE PROMISES and then walk them back. Engineers on the Boeing max were trusted but we all saw how that turned out. He is saying do not have BLIND TRUST. For years we have been told several issues are simply not acceptable in our aircraft and now suddenly they are fine because engineers paid by vans have said so….well that is all so convenient isn’t it? They need to be accountable here. If One crash is ever attributed to this issue we all know the result don’t we.
 
You may or may not trust Vans engineers, that’s up to you. But don’t start saying people shouldn’t trust professionals to do their jobs or we’re all in a whole world of pain.

I think the point is that we're talking about the same engineers / staff who took the poor decision to use lasers in the first place, and who compounded that error by operating almost zero QC and zero traceability, and further aggravated the situation by closing their ears to the feedback from customers for approximately a year.

When you get on an airliner (or similar) you trust a hypothetical engineer who is unknown to you and in the absence of evidence to the contrary must be presumed to have done their job properly. As you say, the alternative viewpoint would tend to absurdity.

Here we are talking about trusting particular people with a known and recent record for poor judgement on the very same issue. Not to mention the financial pressures at play.
 
No it isn't valid.

Millions of people all over the world put their blind trust in engineers every single day.

Every time you get in a car, on a train, boat, plane, turn on a washing machine, or dishwasher you put your blind trust in the fact the engineer have done their job properly.

You trust the pilot of that airliner your flying in, you trust the captain of the cruise ship your sailing in.

You may or may not trust Vans engineers, that’s up to you. But don’t start saying people shouldn’t trust professionals to do their jobs or we’re all in a whole world of pain.

I can understand why you may not want it to be, but it is valid.

Trust is earned. When trust is violated, questioning the violation is rational, reasonable, and, yes, valid.

If I lack the skill or experience to evaluate a circumstance or situation, blind trust may well have to suffice; however, if I am informed or experienced to a certain degree, blind trust is no longer a reasonable expectation.
 
Guessing

You hit the nail on the head. I was so sure that the bulkheads in my rear fuselage (Emp) were all punched parts. I was sure I had to pull the blue plastic off of all the parts. I recently reviewed some photos, and found one with a bulkhead partially prepped. Its hard to say, but I am now not sure as it looks as though the unprepped holes may be laser cut. Now I have to say everything is suspect. With everything being primed and riveted, it is impossible to inspect. :(

You won't get that information because they simply don't have it. What you need to wrap your head around is that Van's operates zero parts traceability.

The barcode on a Van's part label simply says, "W-709-R". When the barcode is scanned as the part is put into your crate, it simply records that a W-709-R has left inventory and deducts one from the live total. No person and no system knows that the particular part went to you.

Under a simple traceability system, as you might expect a manufacturing company to operate, the bardcode might say: "W-709-R serial 00002198 made mm/dd/yy by method X at facility Y" and then when the barcode is scanned during crating, as well as updating inventory, the particular part with all associated information would be recorded as having gone to customer A as part of kit B on date C.

Van's have absolutely no idea who got what. All they know is when they first had them in inventory - presumably they get that information from good inwards records - and from that you can infer which kits are 'clean' and which are not. For those that are not, they could have any combination of parts. There is simply no way to tell who got what, who got things from certain batches, etc. It's all totally random. An otherwise clean QB wing could be contaminated by a single laser cut part somewhere inaccessible, and even if you could see it you couldn't identify it for sure. Or it could be totally clean, or have laser cut parts in all possible locations, or any combination in between you can possibly think of. There is an almost infinite number of scenarios.

This is why they are trying so hard to limit the scope of the extra production and what they have to re-ship for free, because every single customer who received a kit within the (wide) date window could, if they wish, request a replacement for every single part on the laser-cut list for that kit, whether theirs were laser cut or not. Van's would not realistically be able to contest the request, because they have no data. Some kits have very long lists of laser-cut parts. Customers seeking to take advantage of the situation could obtain enough replacement parts to get fairly close to a whole new assembly, even if they did not need one or intend to replace theirs. With a bit of extra random part purchasing, you could get close to having a few extra airframes out there in the wild which carry no Van's build number at all and are made mainly of free replacement parts. The ramifications are mind-boggling.

For us standard builders who have complete or partially complete assemblies, if you didn't keep inventory records / photos and you can't remember what had blue plastic and what didn't then you're kind of screwed, assuming you primed and thus didn't leave laser cut parts identifiable.

I am far luckier than many. In my contaminated -7 empennage kit, I kept a record of what had blue plastic and what didn't. This is because I expected everything to have blue plastic (my only prior experience being the practice kits) and complained to Van's when some of it didn't as well as the general state of the parts. I was told brusquely to go away, that the parts were perfectly acceptable, and that the reason for a lack of blue plastic was because they were laser cut. Happily, I kept that handwritten list and so had to refer back to. But that is sheer dumb luck, because I was impertinent enough to complain about the parts in the first place. If I'd not done that, I'd be guessing.
 
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No it isn't valid.

Millions of people all over the world put their blind trust in engineers every single day.

Every time you get in a car, on a train, boat, plane, turn on a washing machine, or dishwasher you put your blind trust in the fact the engineer have done their job properly.

You trust the pilot of that airliner your flying in, you trust the captain of the cruise ship your sailing in.

You may or may not trust Vans engineers, that’s up to you. But don’t start saying people shouldn’t trust professionals to do their jobs or we’re all in a whole world of pain.

I'm one of those people! I trust in the expertise of others thousands of times a day, and I'm not advocating to change that.

BUT - in this case the guidance we're asked to trust violates the exact advice from those same people for over 30 years! And it is coming from a position of prior errors and with a business incentive to minimize the problem.

That is what makes it different from getting on an airliner.
 
I'm one of those people! I trust in the expertise of others thousands of times a day, and I'm not advocating to change that.

BUT - in this case the guidance we're asked to trust violates the exact advice from those same people for over 30 years! And it is coming from a position of prior errors and with a business incentive to minimize the problem.

That is what makes it different from getting on an airliner.

Well said another valid quote
 
Unhappy grapes

I am building my second Rv-9a. I love Vans design and engineering- it is heartbreaking to have this errant aberration. It was not chasing profit- rather trying to keep up with demand and reduce wait times (the drum beat over the last two years). Demand caused this error. The company is close to breaking, so please try to keep comments supportive, or you won’t have a company left to complain about. They don’t have deep pockets or defense money like Boeing. Going out of business could easily happen, IMHO. I worked in healthcare for 35 years, and one of our regions went bankrupt after a few missed cases of breast cancer due to in-house errors. Once a company folds, it is gone. I don’t want to die from a faulty plane, but I think the design is strong if you replace the red LCP items. I believe they are promoting good science, despite the skeptics here. Rian has long reputation as an engineer. I get the anxiety. I also don’t think I have the skill and energy to disassemble my rudder and elevators and V stab, so I am going to buy a new tail kit, hopefully at a discount if and when this is offered. My ailerons and flaps with red LCPs will fly for a year or two as is, and I will rebuild as I get the time and money.
Hang in there Greg and Vans.
Cal
 
:..parts unfit for purpose no matter what an engineer says….remember the very structures that are holding your aircraft together are compromised.

There you go again, saying the parts are unfit, yet you have NOT done stress testing, finite element analysis or ANYTHING to back up your opinion stated as fact. You, an average guy, may think that a crack in a dimple is bad, but I am sorry to say that you likely DO NOT have the knowledge or testing data to make that claim. If you have done the destructive testing to prove your opinion as fact, please accept my apology and share the data.
 
It was not chasing profit- rather trying to keep up with demand and reduce wait times (the drum beat over the last two years). Demand caused this error.
Cal

They could have stopped taking orders on new kits in 2020 when they knew they did not have the capacity to produce the parts they were selling. They took deposits instead, chasing profits. The last thread was shut down once it started to speculate on new leadership and the quality of decision making from there...but here we are.

I'm with you as far as holding a generally high opinion of the company and I expect to start another build soon. Still, this is the unfortunate reality and it was evident there were serious problems early on.
 
My wife spent her career as a materials manager for a high tech company. She is astounded that Vans has no effective MRP (Material Requirements Planning) or CRP (Capacity Requirements Planning) system to track parts.

She said when they found a defective part that needed to be recalled she could prepare a report in 5 minutes that showed everything you'd ever want to know about the part - when it was made, where it was made, when it was sold, date it shipped, name and contact information for the buyer, etc, etc, etc.

I hope the laser cut parts issue forces a change at Vans so if an issue like this ever happens again, they will have a system in place to give them all the data they need to make fast, informed decisions to minimize the impact to customers.

In the spirit of being supportive of Van's, I would be willing to lend my skills and experience (gratis) to helping them establish such a capability; however, such a capability would require product serialization. Translation: significant cost increases.

The above said, I don't think it is necessary for them to go anywhere near that far. I think Van's needs to (re)start listening to its customers, drop the myopic technical viewpoint they've adopted of late, honor their promise to replace LCPs upon request at no charge, and continue to produce parts in the manner that made them successful prior to Jan 2022.
 
Business Analysis

I think the best we can do as builders is fill out the survey, and parts request form, so Vans can make informed business decisions on next steps.

Like any business they will make decisions based on their loyalty to customers, the reality of the financial situation in front of the business, and potential legal liability.

My guess is they are taking a temperature on how many people will expect a refund on abandoned projects and quick build kits, how many will expect all LCPs be replaced with punched at no costs, how many are willing to pay a reduced amount for punched replacements, etc.

That form should give them pretty good visibility into the scope of the problem. Maybe a couple of well structured polls on this thread would be helpful?
 
Finally, these engineers have a financial incentive to call as many of these parts good as possible, so that needs to be taken into account as we make our own judgement on acceptability. How'd that work out for Boeing?

Do a little historical research on aviation lawsuits. I would argue that they have a good deal of incentive to replace ALL questionable parts. The alternative is negligence and that brings a serious cash outlay down the road.
 
I'm one of those people! I trust in the expertise of others thousands of times a day, and I'm not advocating to change that.

BUT - in this case the guidance we're asked to trust violates the exact advice from those same people for over 30 years! And it is coming from a position of prior errors and with a business incentive to minimize the problem.

That is what makes it different from getting on an airliner.

Vans makes a general statement about diligence in deburring and crack avoidance. This is a general statement they make instead of be carefull on the critical parts and don't worry about the others for fear that folks will get sloppy. That would be negligent advice. However, what this exercise demonstrates is that cracks only make a difference on certain parts of the structure, those subject to high stress. This is no different than that classic steel tube structure used on aircraft. The design (series of V shapes supports) makes the criticality of each individual weld low. This is how amatuers are able to build steel tube structures with sub-standard welding skill and not have them come apart. Engineering stuff like this is quite complex and most of us do not have the knowledge to second guess.
 
There you go again, saying the parts are unfit, yet you have NOT done stress testing, finite element analysis or ANYTHING to back up your opinion stated as fact. You, an average guy, may think that a crack in a dimple is bad, but I am sorry to say that you likely DO NOT have the knowledge or testing data to make that claim. If you have done the destructive testing to prove your opinion as fact, please accept my apology and share the data.

So how many cracks are acceptable, and how big? Until a few months ago the answer was "none". Sec 5 specifically directed deburring holes before dimpling to minimize the chance of cracking!

The data given so far that we're asked to "trust" doesn't have nearly enough detail for such a wholesale change to standard build practices.
 
Just have a think about what it means when you say I don’t trust vans engineers.

If that were remotely true, sell your kit.

If you don’t trust them how do you know your plane is safe? If you don’t trust them how do you know you can pull 6G? Or that their Vne figure is correct? Or that the drop test on the landing gear was done properly? How about any or all of the engineering analysis that was done to prove your aircraft design was safe?

What I actually think you mean is that they have come up with an answer you’re not happy with. It’s fine if you’re not happy, you have every right to be unhappy. I’m not particularly happy about it.

However, to call into question the professionalism of their engineering staff based on nothing more than opinion is disrespectful. And I imagine if someone came into your place of work and called into question your professionalism they would be told to leave.

If you actually didn’t trust Vans Aircraft engineers you wouldn’t be on here, because you wouldn’t have bought the kit in the first place.
 
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