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Skeptically positive

GrahamF said:
The update prior to that one did suggest we would have access last week.

That's what I meant by a meaningful update - an action and a timeline. I don't view "testing is ongoing, wait" as a meaningful update, though we've heard enough of it.
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Gotcha & agreed.

Everwild said:
Also, there's been no hint of Van's stance regarding shipping? .... Who's expected to cover shipping?
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None. I need replacements for 317 laser cut parts. I know who I expect to cover shipping. :eek:
 
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Van's must cover all shipping. The fact they have remained silent on the matter despite repeated enquiries, when to reassure us would be an easy win, suggests to me that they do not intend to.

The parts they sent aren't fit for purpose and so are being replaced, i.e. Van's is yet to fully deliver on the original contract of sale. We've already paid for shipping once and are not going to pay for it a second time.

If you ordered any other product that arrived unfit for purpose and had to be replaced, you'd laugh at any company that asked you pay for shipping a second time.

But this is aviation, where apparently everything is different.
 
jimbom said:
We paid a huge upcharge for a Quick Build.
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At this point, I suggest every SB builder, that has completed a sub kit with LCPs, wishes they went with a QB.

The upcharge for the QB would be a small price to pay for not having to disassemble and/or rebuild.
 
GrahamF said:
Van's must cover all shipping. The fact they have remained silent on the matter despite repeated enquiries, when to reassure us would be an easy win, suggests to me that they do not intend to.

The parts they sent aren't fit for purpose and so are being replaced, i.e. Van's is yet to fully deliver on the original contract of sale. We've already paid for shipping once and are not going to pay for it a second time.

If you ordered any other product that arrived unfit for purpose and had to be replaced, you'd laugh at any company that asked you pay for shipping a second time.

But this is aviation, where apparently everything is different.
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so much conjecture.
 
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It’s not a huge company. 130 employees….with a sizeable problem. I want to see them survive ….I have a plane to finish….I’m a beta tester. The portal looks good. Why can’t you all just let them get on with it. Yes I’m affected too. Am I happy …no….can I do anything about it yet by complaining….no….what’s the point of them coming out each week and saying they are working on it? Has to be said. Flame away….I don’t care.
 
swift12 said:
Why can’t you all just let them get on with it.
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I agree. There are so many people in this thread who are assuming the worst. Vans has made no official statements regarding shipping, replacement of parts damaged in the rebuilding process, remediation of replacement parts for QB kits, etc.

Vans has a lot of people working very, very hard to make this right for all of us. There are a LOT of complicated (and expensive) issues to resolve. Getting the replacement parts web portal set up is not a one day job as some have suggested.

Until (or unless) Vans does something to warrant our scorn, let's give them the time they need to get this right so we can all move forward with our builds.

And no, I don't work for Vans as some have suggested. I have a wing kit with dozens of laser cut parts. I'm just as anxious as the rest of you to get my laser cut parts replaced so I can continue my build.
 
swift12 said:
what’s the point of them coming out each week and saying they are working on it? Has to be said. Flame away….I don’t care.
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This forum isn't only a great resource for builders, it's also an incredible tool that provides Vans with the intelligence it needs to refine it's approach. From product performance to customer service, the more feedback we provide the better off all parties will be. Improvement is a continuous process.

There are some angry builders and they deserve a forum to share their position. Even if it just makes them feel better. I don't blame them. This hobby can be an emotional rollercoaster. I estimate 250-400 hours (6 months) of rework and it's disappointing, but I can get over it. Imagine having 500 to 1,000, or more hours of rework. It would be a project ender for me as I'm trying to balance this with work and family.

Most want to see Van's do well and are providing the feedback that should help them get through this. It's market research and an important part of any successful business. Not to mention it's free. They don't need to pay for a market study or focus group. They have all of the data they need in the previous pages.
 
Everwild said:
This forum isn't only a great resource for builders, it's also an incredible tool that provides Vans with the intelligence it needs to refine it's approach. From product performance to customer service, the more feedback we provide the better off all parties will be. Improvement is a continuous process.

There are some angry builders and they deserve a forum to share their position. Even if it just makes them feel better. I don't blame them. This hobby can be an emotional rollercoaster. I estimate 250-400 hours (6 months) of rework and it's disappointing, but I can get over it. Imagine having 500 to 1,000, or more hours of rework. It would be a project ender for me as I'm trying to balance this with work and family.

Most want to see Van's do well and are providing the feedback that should help them get through this. It's market research and an important part of any successful business. Not to mention it's free. They don't need to pay for a market study or focus group. They have all of the data they need in the previous pages.
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This (#1159)
 
Anyone really worried about Vans financial situation.

I’m sure they’re more than willing to take your donations above and beyond your kit cost.


https://www.vansaircraft.com/makeapayment/

It’s a terrible situation… for lcp builders

But we will get through it as we always do. Aviators keep aviation alive

This thread helps all sides have a voice. So please don’t shut down others opinions that may not match your own.
 
Everwild said:
This forum isn't only a great resource for builders, it's also an incredible tool that provides Vans with the intelligence it needs to refine it's approach. From product performance to customer service, the more feedback we provide the better off all parties will be. Improvement is a continuous process.

There are some angry builders and they deserve a forum to share their position. Even if it just makes them feel better. I don't blame them. This hobby can be an emotional rollercoaster. I estimate 250-400 hours (6 months) of rework and it's disappointing, but I can get over it. Imagine having 500 to 1,000, or more hours of rework. It would be a project ender for me as I'm trying to balance this with work and family.

Most want to see Van's do well and are providing the feedback that should help them get through this. It's market research and an important part of any successful business. Not to mention it's free. They don't need to pay for a market study or focus group. They have all of the data they need in the previous pages.
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I guarantee you that this isn't the only forum where this is being discussed, either.
 
>>>Moderator edit: Removed the uncivil quote already previously deleted from another post.<<<

If a problem like this, although arguably a fairly serious problem, is enough to end your dreams - then it wasn't much of a dream to begin with. Dreams survive setbacks. Pick it up and move on. What's going to happen when you get done with the finishing kit and there are no instructions for installing the engine or avionics? Panic and scream? Demand someone do it for you?
 
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airguy said:
If a problem like this, although arguably a fairly serious problem, is enough to end your dreams - then it wasn't much of a dream to begin with. Dreams survive setbacks. Pick it up and move on. What's going to happen when you get done with the finishing kit and there are no instructions for installing the engine or avionics? Panic and scream? Demand someone do it for you?
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I don’t disagree with your statement. Everyone needs to digest and regroup in different ways and timeframe. Just a little tact for fellow aviators can go a long way(advice for myself and anyone else that might listen).

Just when you think you’re the best, seen it all and been everywhere. Someone better strolls by you
 
airguy said:
If a problem like this, although arguably a fairly serious problem, is enough to end your dreams - then it wasn't much of a dream to begin with. Dreams survive setbacks. Pick it up and move on. What's going to happen when you get done with the finishing kit and there are no instructions for installing the engine or avionics? Panic and scream? Demand someone do it for you?
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I was in agreement with you until "What's going to happen when you get done with the finishing kit and there are no instructions for installing the engine or avionics? Panic and scream? Demand someone do it for you?"

I don't think anyone on here is asking for anything beyond being made whole for what they purchased. Most of us understand and accept we will have lost some time. C'est la vie. The QB folks seem to have some legit concerns, of course. Regardless, I think all of us want Van's to succeed. I certainly do. In the meantime, we're stuck watching a PR train wreck. <sigh>
 
Regardless of your opinion on this issue, if this thread continues to break the rules, it’s gonna get shut down and then where will we be? To be honest I am surprised it has not already been toasted. Doug obviously thinks it’s important so please don’t test his patience.
 
Brantel said:
Regardless of your opinion on this issue, if this thread continues to break the rules, it’s gonna get shut down and then where will we be? To be honest I am surprised it has not already been toasted. Doug obviously thinks it’s important so please don’t test his patience.
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I've been thinking the same thing for quite a while.

FWIW, I'm not affected by the issue, which makes it easier to keep calm........
 
Brantel said:
Regardless of your opinion on this issue, if this thread continues to break the rules, it’s gonna get shut down and then where will we be? To be honest I am surprised it has not already been toasted. Doug obviously thinks it’s important so please don’t test his patience.
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PCHunt said:
I've been thinking the same thing for quite a while.
FWIW, I'm not affected by the issue, which makes it easier to keep calm........
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As a moderator, Doug let me (us?) know that this thread was special. It needed to simmer. Lot's of (justifiably) upset people circling this subject, and they need to vent. The venting, while difficult to endure for Vans, is valuable for Vans as well as all of us, so DR told us to allow some slack...

...right up to, but not beyond, folks just being outright uncivil. If it looks like a poster is typing the post with their fists, it clearly doesn't add any benefit to the discussion. That's our rather squishy judgement line.
 
While the whole LCP issue is disappointing I have no doubt Vans will take all reasonable steps to make this right.

I do think some people have an unreasonable expectation of what “make this right” means and will be disappointed.

But that’s life.
 
PCHunt said:
FWIW, I'm not affected by the issue, which makes it easier to keep calm........
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I'm not affected either but I'm watching this to see how Vans handles it. After being adversely affected by the Quick-build leaking tank issue and summarily dismissed by Vans, it makes a huge difference.

-Marc
 
I thought they wood have the test results published by now.

I hope they not waiting to fix their portal to give out results.

The results and details of their replacement policy would be a good next step
 
They are doing tests to simulate the life of the airframe. Even if they accelerate them it takes time.

I feel badly for all you effected. I would be devastated. This thread is way more social media like than I’ve seen before on VAF. People whipping themselves into a frenzy over issues that are out of everyone’s control including Vans. I don’t think anything contained in it does anything to speed up the result.

I found Vans kit building to be 49% heartbreak and 51% euphoria. This is the heartbreak part.
 
Mikeyb said:
They are doing tests to simulate the life of the airframe. Even if they accelerate them it takes time.

I feel badly for all you effected. I would be devastated. This thread is way more social media like than I’ve seen before on VAF. People whipping themselves into a frenzy over issues that are out of everyone’s control including Vans. I don’t think anything contained in it does anything to speed up the result.

I found Vans kit building to be 49% heartbreak and 51% euphoria. This is the heartbreak part.
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Agreed!

Can you think of a time in the past where Vans completely discontinued a build procedure or build part(s) similar to this, even if on a small scale. I’ve asked the question what would you do with three kits, 2 QB (not touched) and an empennage completed all with lcp. I’ve usually get the answer well “life is tough” man up and fix it. Would you spend another 100k “building on” when everything from your safety and resale is potentially affected.

Thanks for the empathetic message. We need more of those!
 
Jonnyb said:
While the whole LCP issue is disappointing I have no doubt Vans will take all reasonable steps to make this right.

I do think some people have an unreasonable expectation of what “make this right” means and will be disappointed.

But that’s life.
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Personally, I’m a little miffed by the handling of this. I have received exactly ONE email from Vans about this. On July 15th. I received my empennage kit on August 14th. No indication in packing list or otherwise of the issue, just a bunch of parts back ordered without a reason. I’ve contacted Vans several times just trying to find out what I need to do. I can’t even tell for sure if I’ve paid for the back ordered parts. Kinda looks like I haven’t, but they haven’t told me. Will I be on the hook for shipping on those parts? I don’t know. I’ve received exactly zero replies to any of my queries. Yet I know they have my contact info, because they were ricky tick communicating about my shipping invoice.

If it wasn’t for this forum, I would be completely in the dark.

I’m not upset about the wait. I’m not upset that they’re taking the time to work the problem. I AM a little peeved that I’ve received zero information through official channels. It makes it very difficult to consider sending an additional $20-30k their way for additional kits.
 
ragedracer1977 said:
Personally, I’m a little miffed by the handling of this. I have received exactly ONE email from Vans about this. On July 15th. I received my empennage kit on August 14th. No indication in packing list or otherwise of the issue, just a bunch of parts back ordered without a reason. I’ve contacted Vans several times just trying to find out what I need to do. I can’t even tell for sure if I’ve paid for the back ordered parts. Kinda looks like I haven’t, but they haven’t told me. Will I be on the hook for shipping on those parts? I don’t know. I’ve received exactly zero replies to any of my queries. Yet I know they have my contact info, because they were ricky tick communicating about my shipping invoice.

If it wasn’t for this forum, I would be completely in the dark.

I’m not upset about the wait. I’m not upset that they’re taking the time to work the problem. I AM a little peeved that I’ve received zero information through official channels. It makes it very difficult to consider sending an additional $20-30k their way for additional kits.
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In my experience, Van's covers the cost of shipping for the backordered parts.

The reason for the backorders is probably just a simple matter of them not having the parts ready to ship.

What I noticed about my kits - all of them shipped with some parts on backorder - is that what I received would have allowed me to get started and make quite a bit of progress until the backordered parts arrived.

I say "would have" because the LCP issue got in the way. Not flogging the LCP issue, just explaining that I think the kits would have allowed me to make a great deal of progress despite backordered parts.
 
ragedracer1977 said:
Personally, I’m a little miffed by the handling of this. I have received exactly ONE email from Vans about this. On July 15th. I received my empennage kit on August 14th. No indication in packing list or otherwise of the issue, just a bunch of parts back ordered without a reason. I’ve contacted Vans several times just trying to find out what I need to do. I can’t even tell for sure if I’ve paid for the back ordered parts. Kinda looks like I haven’t, but they haven’t told me. Will I be on the hook for shipping on those parts? I don’t know. I’ve received exactly zero replies to any of my queries. Yet I know they have my contact info, because they were ricky tick communicating about my shipping invoice.

If it wasn’t for this forum, I would be completely in the dark.

I’m not upset about the wait. I’m not upset that they’re taking the time to work the problem. I AM a little peeved that I’ve received zero information through official channels. It makes it very difficult to consider sending an additional $20-30k their way for additional kits.
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Do not fret whatsoever about backordered parts. Van's has a very good system for knowing what parts you have backordered, and will ship them when they become available at their expense. All you need is to push forward with the build steps you can, juggling multiple chapters if needed, and to have patience. The backorder shipment will happen automatically, and you do not need to bug them about it. As a point of reference, my wing kit backorder took three or four months to ship, so I really mean PATIENCE, especially as they deal with the LCP issue orders.

As for payment for those parts, assuming you paid for your empennage kit in full (should have, since I think that is a requirement for them to crate it), you are fully paid up, with nothing owed until final payment is due on your next kit. If you were to talk to their accounting department they would tell you you currently have a positive balance on your account, from which the cost of the backordered parts will be deducted when they ship to you.

Their communication is usually much better, but this LCP issue has caused a log jam that will get cleared up eventually.
 
gotyoke said:
If you were to talk to their accounting department they would tell you you currently have a positive balance on your account, from which the cost of the backordered parts will be deducted when they ship to you.
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Oh, now you did it. Now somebody is going to want 7% interest on that positive balance, taxes paid.
 
tenacious9 said:
Can you think of a time in the past where Vans completely discontinued a build procedure or build part(s) similar to this, even if on a small scale.
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Didn't they used to tell people to slosh the tanks with sealant at one point? Then a number of planes started having problems with sealant peeling, and the slosh step was removed. I wonder if the old Matronics list archive records a number of people demanding that Vans supply newly built tanks... :rolleyes:
 
Snowflake said:
Didn't they used to tell people to slosh the tanks with sealant at one point? Then a number of planes started having problems with sealant peeling, and the slosh step was removed. I wonder if the old Matronics list archive records a number of people demanding that Vans supply newly built tanks... :rolleyes:
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Interesting. Yes the scope of that fix is doable. Lcp is a little bit different. That’s kinda like saying to your next-door neighbor, who just had his entire home destroyed in a fire, I lost my treehouse once in a fire so I can relate.

Anything other comparisons?
 
Just out of interest, has anyone received details of the portal yet? Last update was Sept. 15 saying they were testing, I haven't received anything yet, and don't want to bother Vans asking a silly little question as I know they are busy.
 
nerdwithoutacause said:
Just out of interest, has anyone received details of the portal yet? Last update was Sept. 15 saying they were testing, I haven't received anything yet, and don't want to bother Vans asking a silly little question as I know they are busy.
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The portal hasn't been released to the public yet if that's what you're wondering.
 
Snowflake said:
Didn't they used to tell people to slosh the tanks with sealant at one point? Then a number of planes started having problems with sealant peeling, and the slosh step was removed. I wonder if the old Matronics list archive records a number of people demanding that Vans supply newly built tanks... :rolleyes:
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Actually the recommendation was not to slosh the tanks completely. The recommendation was to place the tank in the nose up position, pour in some slosh and tilt the tank side to side and end to end to help seal the rear baffle.
Then pour the overage out.
 
Snowflake said:
Didn't they used to tell people to slosh the tanks with sealant at one point? Then a number of planes started having problems with sealant peeling, and the slosh step was removed. I wonder if the old Matronics list archive records a number of people demanding that Vans supply newly built tanks... :rolleyes:
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Imagine instead if they tested a handful of sealed coupons and a tank or two, said "we don't think this will be a problem during the life of the airplane", and said to build on...

I'm (can't speak for others) fully onboard that the time, annoyance, and at least some of the expense of removing and replacing LCP is on me, not looking for anything beyond parts availability there. I just want to use this board, in the spirit discussed earlier, to inform Vans that there is a huge reputational risk in assuming the testing will be enough to change the community feelings on known cracks in an airframe. I have a time and money incentive to hit the "easy button" on my build (and leave the LCPs in), but I can't imagine that I will - how do you think this looks to the next buyer who doesn't have the same sunk costs?
 
Were people notified by Vans?

I happened to be looking through the classifieds last week and saw a reference to LCP, went to Van's home page - nothing mentioned on the front page and I had to go digging and then found out what was going on.

Turns out that I did order parts during this time frame and they are in fact LCP with the defects.

How hard would it have been for them to search through their order history and automatically send an email? Really Vans.....
 
jls32 said:
Were people notified by Vans?

I happened to be looking through the classifieds last week and saw a reference to LCP, went to Van's home page - nothing mentioned on the front page and I had to go digging and then found out what was going on.

Turns out that I did order parts during this time frame and they are in fact LCP with the defects.

How hard would it have been for them to search through their order history and automatically send an email? Really Vans.....
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I got a pretty in-depth notice of the problem via email from Vans on 7/15/23. Subject was "Van's Aircraft - Information for Builders Regarding RV Kit(s)"
 
jls32 said:
Were people notified by Vans?

I happened to be looking through the classifieds last week and saw a reference to LCP, went to Van's home page - nothing mentioned on the front page and I had to go digging and then found out what was going on.

Turns out that I did order parts during this time frame and they are in fact LCP with the defects.

How hard would it have been for them to search through their order history and automatically send an email? Really Vans.....
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Yes, emails were sent out to the email address provided when you placed the kit order. I know I received mine.
 
airguy said:
Yes, emails were sent out to the email address provided when you placed the kit order. I know I received mine.
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I wonder if Van’s notified folks who purchased lcp parts as well as lcp-affected kits? Perhaps they only notified lcp-affected kit purchasers and not purchasers of affected individual parts?

It seems entirely possible that someone could have received non-LCP kits prior to Feb 2022, but later purchased additional / replacement parts that ended up being laser cut. <shrug>
 
ccarlson said:
I wonder if Van’s notified folks who purchased lcp parts as well as lcp-affected kits? Perhaps they only notified lcp-affected kit purchasers and not purchasers of affected individual parts?

It seems entirely possible that someone could have received non-LCP kits prior to Feb 2022, but later purchased additional / replacement parts that ended up being laser cut. <shrug>
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That's what happened to me - kit was pre-LCP and replacement parts were during LCP. Not a peep from Van's.

I get to replace my replacement parts.
 
ccarlson said:
I wonder if Van’s notified folks who purchased lcp parts as well as lcp-affected kits? Perhaps they only notified lcp-affected kit purchasers and not purchasers of affected individual parts?

It seems entirely possible that someone could have received non-LCP kits prior to Feb 2022, but later purchased additional / replacement parts that ended up being laser cut. <shrug>
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I bought parts for ER tanks and a couple of ailerons - parts that were on the LCP list - received no notification from Van's. Only way I found out was VAF.
 
tenacious9 said:
Can you think of a time in the past where Vans completely discontinued a build procedure or build part(s) similar to this, even if on a small scale.
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They also used to tell people to use cork gaskets for the fuel tank access panels. They don’t do that anymore because many started to leak.

LCP were always meant as a temporary measure while they worked on more punch capacity.
This isn’t Vans “completely discontinuing” laser cutting but rather them accelerating an already planned phaseout. LCP was always supposed to be a temporary thing.
 
ccarlson said:
I wonder if Van’s notified folks who purchased lcp parts as well as lcp-affected kits? Perhaps they only notified lcp-affected kit purchasers and not purchasers of affected individual parts?

It seems entirely possible that someone could have received non-LCP kits prior to Feb 2022, but later purchased additional / replacement parts that ended up being laser cut. <shrug>
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I brought this up during the portal beta test. I have 1) an entire Fuse kit 2) individual parts

Hopefully they heard my feedback and will address it.
 
deMan said:
…
LCP were always meant as a temporary measure while they worked on more punch capacity.
This isn’t Vans “completely discontinuing” laser cutting but rather them accelerating an already planned phaseout. LCP was always supposed to be a temporary thing.
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That’s what they claimed but not many people are buying it. They were supposed to receive the new press over a year ago and it appears that LCP production was ramping up. I guess we may need to get the contracts from the LCP companies, because I have a feeling they didn’t think laser cutting was temporary.
I’ll believe laser cutting was temporarily when someone shows us a “good” laser cut part.
 
Jack_G_S said:
That’s what they claimed but not many people are buying it. They were supposed to receive the new press over a year ago and it appears that LCP production was ramping up. I guess we may need to get the contracts from the LCP companies, because I have a feeling they didn’t think laser cutting was temporary.
I’ll believe laser cutting was temporarily when someone shows us a “good” laser cut part.
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Hmmm, you might check send cut send or oshcut for laser cut parts. They are perfect which means it was more the vendor than the process.
 
tenacious9 said:
Interesting. Yes the scope of that fix is doable. Lcp is a little bit different. That’s kinda like saying to your next-door neighbor, who just had his entire home destroyed in a fire, I lost my treehouse once in a fire so I can relate.

Anything other comparisons?
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Sorry, wasn't trying to say that a different, smaller problem was comparable.
But you asked: "Can you think of a time in the past where Vans completely discontinued a build procedure or build part(s) similar to this, even if on a small scale."

Mel, do you remember what, if anything Van's said when the slosh was found to be fouling fuel lines? Was any remediation offered, replacement parts, rebates, etc? Or did they issue any instructions for *removal* of the slosh?
 
rocketman1988 said:
Hmmm, you might check send cut send or oshcut for laser cut parts. They are perfect which means it was more the vendor than the process.
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I’m not trying to say making a good laser cut part is impossible. I’m saying I haven’t heard of anyone receiving a laser cut part from Van’s that doesn’t have a HAZ.
More importantly, if this started from a simple program change from a single vendor why wasn’t it corrected a year ago when people brought the issue up?
 
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