[airguy]

Greg, I think you answer will prove to be spot on. QB's will require additional time. Vans has said they will replace LCP's but yet to say all or just some that they feel this "feature" will not add value to the airframe. (I love they called it a "feature") My 2 questions for Vans:
1) If a builder does not want to use a LCP and Vans says no problem build on (again) does the builder have the right to return it?
2) And maybe most important for me if we have built a structure with LCP will we have the option to request parts that were riveted to the LCP (And these parts where punched) that has these features?

I think the vast majority of builders understand their labor (or labor they paid for) will not get reimbursed. That process would be almost impossible to administer but answering question 1 + 2 would not.

(my opinion only - I don't speak for Vans) I think #1 is yes, and #2 is no. For #1 they have already stated that's the case - it would be a ****-storm if they backed up on that now, and the dollars in Vans favor are not worth the bad press. I could get surprised on #2, that's a grey area.

The timescale is another question I would like answered. Is vans going to prioritize making laser parts customers whole before shipping kits to new customers? A little transparency would be nice. We have x rv-9 tail kits that need replacement parts. Our batch process produces y parts a week so you’ll get you parts in this many months. If they’re going to sprinkle replacement parts in with new customers then this could take years for some people and they might want to punt altogether and build or buy something else.

Agreed. I'm fairly firmly on the side of giving Vans some slack on this to let them do their thing - but some transparency and updates are needed. Even if it's bad news, lets get some news out there.

 

[Bullpup]

(my opinion only - I don't speak for Vans) I think #1 is yes, and #2 is no. For #1 they have already stated that's the case - it would be a ****-storm if they backed up on that now, and the dollars in Vans favor are not worth the bad press. I could get surprised on #2, that's a grey area.





Agreed. I'm fairly firmly on the side of giving Vans some slack on this to let them do their thing - but some transparency and updates are needed. Even if it's bad news, lets get some news out there.

I truly hope there is some consideration on #2 - not looking for anything on the time or consumables (proseal, etc.) used, but there should be some consideration in the form of adjacent parts in finished assemblies. Consider a wing leading edge - per section 5 and general knowledge, the odds of damaging a skin with a full replace are pretty high. Drilling every rivet is different than a few corrections. Plus, how would you match drill when the skins are already dimpled?

 

[wirejock]

Match drill

<snip>
Plus, how would you match drill when the skins are already dimpled?

I got no critter in this but I may be able to help with the match drill issue. I rebuilt my HS.
Buy a section of 1/16" brass tube from the hobby store. Pretty sure that's the size.
#41 fits pretty good. #40 can be coaxed through with a little patience.
Cut a piece short enough to allow the drill bit to be chucked and the business end to do it's job.
Chuck it in the drill and round the end on a piece of 400 grit.
It fits a dimple really well and centers the bit.
Here is the Kitplanes tip.

BTW, when this is corrected and builders start getting parts, Vans or the builder will probably need a rivet kit. There may be a lot of rivets drilled and replaced

 

[Bullpup]

I got no critter in this but I may be able to help with the match drill issue. I rebuilt my HS.
Buy a section of 1/16" brass tube from the hobby store. Pretty sure that's the size.
#41 fits pretty good. #40 can be coaxed through with a little patience.
Cut a piece short enough to allow the drill bit to be chucked and the business end to do it's job.
Chuck it in the drill and round the end on a piece of 400 grit.
It fits a dimple really well and centers the bit.
Here is the Kitplanes tip.

BTW, when this is corrected and builders start getting parts, Vans or the builder will probably need a rivet kit. There may be a lot of rivets drilled and replaced

This is much appreciated, thank you! That said, my bigger question is how do you even fit the leading edge ribs in place without matching dimples - it took a lot of coaxing the first time.

 

[jfterrones]

Are you seeing the cracks on primed parts after dimpling and riveting? I think my rudder stiffeners may be laser cut, so I inspected every shop head using a flexible arm high-def borescope and did not see any cracks (https://eaabuilderslog.org/?blprojentry&proj=7xG4Zk036&e=87ECDjiw0). The caveat is that I prime my internal surfaces with EkoPoxy after dimpling which might have filled in any cracks. It's not clear to me if such cracks, if they exist, would "blow" open enough during riveting to be seen by this borescope inspection process, so I am left with the conundrum of whether this is a sufficient inspection process.

Will, yours look good to me. I'm in the process of purchasing a scope to do the same kind of inspection. Here's one that has a visible crack.

 

[deMan]

Will, yours look good to me. I'm in the process of purchasing a scope to do the same kind of inspection. Here's one that has a visible crack.

It might be just the magnification being so high but to me it looks like the dimple with the cleco already has tiny cracks forming. At the very least the edge looks kind of rough. But then again I’ve never seen a dimple magnified this much.

Was this part match drilled or is this a final size kit?

 

[flyingRV]

I‘m also very curious how a solution from VANS will look like.
I spent years of thinking about which kit to build and finally ended up with my RV7 kit because of the reputation of this company.
My problems compared to others may be small but as a first time builder I’m pretty happy how my skeletons of the VS, HS and Rudder came out. Just the skins are missing.
Thinking of drilling out hundred of rivets of the already hard to attach ribs, reinforcement plates, spar doublets, hinges just to replace the spar and rivet them on again maked me reconsidering the whole project.


VANS itself states that drilling out and resetting a rivet makes it often worse.
Getting a replacement for all the parts already attached to the affected laser part would be an obvious solution. I would expect Vans to bear the costs, they delivered faulty parts, no matter that we are homebuilders.
At least there should be a possibility for builders to buy the parts they don‘t want to/can drill out with a huge price reduction and add to the shipping.

Two questions:

Will there be any procedure published how to check/assure that a part is laser cut despite the presence of blue vinyl?

How can you fit an already match drilled part to a new spar?
The holes won‘t be as good as before, right?

Simon

 

[Mark33]

Well, I figured I might as well chime in and voice my opinion.

I think for those of us who have Q.B. kits…and paid a high premium for those kits, need to have the option of having our Q.B. kits replaced. If there are any suspect parts in any of my Q.B. assemblies, then that entire assembly needs to be replaced,….regardless of the engineering stress analysis findings. I shouldn’t have to accept subpar or potential subpar parts and I shouldn’t have to dismantle any portion of the Q.B. assemblies to replace suspect parts. I don’t think it’s asking too much to get what I paid for. Period.

Now, in saying that, if a builder would want to make the repairs themselves, then maybe some kind of compensation schedule could be devised.

Another option to consider is to not replace a particular Q.B. assembly. The items that come to mind are the fuel tanks. It has already been determined that the rear baffles on the tanks need replacing….which I’m not going to do. So, instead of replacing the Q.B. tanks, determine their value and give the builder the option to either be compensated or have the tanks replaced. A number of us are opting for the Sky Designs ER tanks anyway, so this may be an opportunity for the builder to offset the cost of those S.D. tank parts. This would also relieve Vans of not having replace the Q.B. tanks.

 

[maxmirot]

Well, I figured I might as well chime in and voice my opinion.

I think for those of us who have Q.B. kits…and paid a high premium for those kits, need to have the option of having our Q.B. kits replaced. If there are any suspect parts in any of my Q.B. assemblies, then that entire assembly needs to be replaced,….regardless of the engineering stress analysis findings. I shouldn’t have to accept subpar or potential subpar parts and I shouldn’t have to dismantle any portion of the Q.B. assemblies to replace suspect parts. I don’t think it’s asking too much to get what I paid for. Period.

.

If a detailed engineering analysis says these are airworthy parts then is is not subpar or potentially sub par.

If they need to be replace because they fail or are still suspect after testing, that is entirely different.

You definitely paid for an airworthy assembly.

I suspect that some of the cracks shown here will be of zero concern after testing. That is, they don't propagate.
It will be airworthy part and assembly.

I base this on what Van's said during their Airventure talk.

If this turns out to be true. This is going to ruff for many of us to accept. Most good builders want excellence in form and function. Leaving a tiny crack goes against the grain

 

[RV7A Flyer]

If a detailed engineering analysis says these are airworthy parts then is is not subpar or potentially sub par.

Did you or any other customer have a seat on the MRB at which time the nonconformance was accepted? If not, I'd say you have a pretty good argument that Van's failed to deliver the parts as promised.

 

[kirkbauer]

I agree we need an update...

This is my first kit airplane, and I have finished the RV-10 VS, HS, Rudder, and Elevators (about 200hr of work so far). I had just finished deburring most of the tailcone structural parts when I received the email about the laser-cut parts. My tailcone definitely has laser-cut parts. I don't know if any of my finished components have them.

But I've now completely paused my build process until I can receive new tailcone parts. In addition, In Dec/Jan I'm going to owe the rest of the payment on my fuselage parts. I'm not paying any more until I know what Van's is going to do about all of my completed components that most likely have laser-cut parts.

 

[Walt]

Did you or any other customer have a seat on the MRB at which time the nonconformance was accepted? If not, I'd say you have a pretty good argument that Van's failed to deliver the parts as promised.

Agree, think about how this will affect the aircraft 10+ years down the line. As good as engineers are, aging aircraft always have a way of showing us they cannot predict everything (just look as the SB list as an example).

 

[bob865]

I think when this all shakes out, vans will likely implement a part code on each kit part so they can track which parts went where, and when.

I don't know that they'll get down to an individual part number, but maybe a batch number. They kinda do this already with the date. I never noticed it before this laser cut issue, but it made it easy for me to confirm that I didn't have many laser parts by the first in stock date and the date on the part. Granted, this didn't help me much with the parts that were already built and the labels already removed. Who would have ever thought I would need a date Vans received the part?

 

[KellyA]

Builder’s still building?

Can someone please clear something for me? I follow “That Hippie Guy” building an 8, and “Ryan Flys” building a 10, both on YouTube. With all that is going on both guys are continuing their builds and received their kits earlier this year about the same time I received my kit. Their parts are the parts that in question. I’m at the same stage, wings 50% done. I want to start aileron and flaps, but from all indications I need to wait on testing and/or replacement spars for ailerons and flaps. I’m confused.

 

[gotyoke]

Can someone please clear something for me? I follow “That Hippie Guy” building an 8, and “Ryan Flys” building a 10, both on YouTube. With all that is going on both guys are continuing their builds and received their kits earlier this year about the same time I received my kit. Their parts are the parts that in question. I’m at the same stage, wings 50% done. I want to start aileron and flaps, but from all indications I need to wait on testing and/or replacement spars for ailerons and flaps. I’m confused.

Do only work that does not involve laser-cut parts until Van's gives more guidance. That's what Van's said. If you have a laser-cut part that doesn't get dimpled AND whose holes look great, it is unlikely you'll need to worry about cracks, so you can probably safely work with those too. FWIW, I'm doing some of the fairing/fiberglass work that I have been putting off until we hear more.

 

[KellyA]

Okay, this helps. I was thinking I may have missed something. Both guys mentioned in my comment are still final drilling, de-burring, dimpling, and riveted ailerons and flaps. What do they know, that I don't?

 

[airguy]

Okay, this helps. I was thinking I may have missed something. Both guys mentioned in my comment are still final drilling, de-burring, dimpling, and riveted ailerons and flaps. What do they know, that I don't?

Most likely, they know they make a lot of money from the ads on their videos...

 

[deMan]

Can someone please clear something for me? I follow “That Hippie Guy” building an 8, and “Ryan Flys” building a 10, both on YouTube. With all that is going on both guys are continuing their builds and received their kits earlier this year about the same time I received my kit.

Ryan is building a 7, not a 10.
The 7&8 are both undersized holes, I think that makes a big difference. All the reports I’ve seen for heavy cracking on good looking parts seem to have been final sized kits.

I’m personally building a 9 and I just riveted a bunch of laser cut ribs to my wing spar. My thinking is that a) holes looked clean, b) I match drill the heat affected area off the part, c) the ribs are heat treated after cutting so I assume that should negate the laser heat effects, and d) I sacrificed one rib and riveted to a spare strip with the same thickness as the skin and that was crack free. Overall I am pretty confident that these ribs aren’t from a bad batch and that I have no issues when the skins go on.
If there are issues, then the ribs should also be fairly easy to replace once I notice cracking to start.

If I start seeing cracks all over while putting in rivets l will hold and reevaluate.

The flap spar I have is and though, so I definitely won’t start anything with that.

I guess those two guys might be doing something similar to me. Try to do the best they can with the parts on hand while being prepared to reevaluate once bad signs start appearing on their actual parts.

 

[swift12]

Ryan is building a 7, not a 10.
The 7&8 are both undersized holes, I think that makes a big difference. All the reports I’ve seen for heavy cracking on good looking parts seem to have been final sized kits.

I’m personally building a 9 and I just riveted a bunch of laser cut ribs to my wing spar. My thinking is that a) holes looked clean, b) I match drill the heat affected area off the part, c) the ribs are heat treated after cutting so I assume that should negate the laser heat effects, and d) I sacrificed one rib and riveted to a spare strip with the same thickness as the skin and that was crack free. Overall I am pretty confident that these ribs aren’t from a bad batch and that I have no issues when the skins go on.
If there are issues, then the ribs should also be fairly easy to replace once I notice cracking to start.

If I start seeing cracks all over while putting in rivets l will hold and reevaluate.

The flap spar I have is and though, so I definitely won’t start anything with that.

I guess those two guys might be doing something similar to me. Try to do the best they can with the parts on hand while being prepared to reevaluate once bad signs start appearing on their actual parts.

Check well….I thought I was cleaning the holes out too with a reamer to test the laser cut ribs. Every single one cracks on dimpling and I have not even tried riveting with them. They crack at the start point of the hole. The reamer does not clean this up. Maybe I have a bad batch set….the slag all over the ribs is woeful. Yes it’s a 7 and the holes are undersized to begin with.

 

[2theskyy]

Long story as short as possible. I saw vans shows a lot of my parts in stock so I reached out to try and buy good punched parts and got laughed at. I was hoping if enough of us would be willing to pay list price for good parts if they’d stock them. Then those with QB or completed kits could get the attention they deserve. As I only have a pile of parts not installed and the List $ would be ~1k shipped. A small price to pay to help myself and everyone else get in the air quicker and more safe than the alternative.

I might be alone in this thought but speaking to those involved in the superior crankshaft, ECI cylinder issue, etc. this is not going to end well or anytime soon. Maybe there are other solutions if Vans knows they might have options their life long customers are willing to make.

I doubt it since I cannot get a call back from Greg.
Bring on the beatings

 

[airguy]

c) the ribs are heat treated after cutting so I assume that should negate the laser heat effects,

Do we know this to be true? If so, I agree it would make a difference on the quality of the final product - but I'm not sure this is correct.

 

[Bullpup]

Ryan is building a 7, not a 10.
The 7&8 are both undersized holes, I think that makes a big difference. All the reports I’ve seen for heavy cracking on good looking parts seem to have been final sized kits.

I’m personally building a 9 and I just riveted a bunch of laser cut ribs to my wing spar. My thinking is that a) holes looked clean, b) I match drill the heat affected area off the part, c) the ribs are heat treated after cutting so I assume that should negate the laser heat effects, and d) I sacrificed one rib and riveted to a spare strip with the same thickness as the skin and that was crack free. Overall I am pretty confident that these ribs aren’t from a bad batch and that I have no issues when the skins go on.
If there are issues, then the ribs should also be fairly easy to replace once I notice cracking to start.

If I start seeing cracks all over while putting in rivets l will hold and reevaluate.

The flap spar I have is and though, so I definitely won’t start anything with that.

I guess those two guys might be doing something similar to me. Try to do the best they can with the parts on hand while being prepared to reevaluate once bad signs start appearing on their actual parts.

I thought/hoped the same as you; I have one completed wing on my 8. I took one of the "good looking" R side ribs, reamed final size, deburred, and dimpled. I needed to use magnification, but nearly every hole had a small crack form during dimpling.

Without being cued on what to look for, and especially with primed parts, I'm 100% certain I wouldn't have seen these cracks during assembly. I have to assume the completed section is affected.

Your call, but just a data point-

 

[Jack_G_S]

It is nearly impossible to detect without magnification but nearly all of the laser cut parts in my -8 fuselage kit have some sort of imperfection like these pictures I took.

 

[Tlrguy]

After a bunch of experimentation on unassembled laser cut parts, it appears as if those exact “features” are responsible for the cracking we are seeing upon dumpling. The crack always starts on the edge of what I refer to as the “slag pool”.

Whether that term is correct or not, you get what I’m talking about. “Features” is all encompassing. There are at least two very different “features” associated with these laser cut parts. The other being a notch, which is clearly visible in your third picture.

 

[deMan]

Do we know this to be true? If so, I agree it would make a difference on the quality of the final product - but I'm not sure this is correct.

The 9 comes with three types of ribs. 910 (root), 911 (inboard), and 912 (outboard).
According to Vans affected parts list the 911 and 912 are heat treated and undersized.
The 910 and 912 I have are punched and didn’t have vinyl when I got them which also indicates heat treating.
So I am pretty sure I have heat treated ribs.

Now as to whether heat treating removes the brittleness in the zone affected by the laser - that’s an educated guess by me. I admit that. Seems like reasonable guess to me. We will see…

Check well….I thought I was cleaning the holes out too with a reamer to test the laser cut ribs. Every single one cracks on dimpling and I have not even tried riveting with them. They crack at the start point of the hole. The reamer does not clean this up. Maybe I have a bad batch set….the slag all over the ribs is woeful. Yes it’s a 7 and the holes are undersized to begin with.

I don’t have slag all over these ribs. So fingers crossed my parts are from a different batch than yours and won’t crack.
Is that start point on your ribs extending outside of the hole the reamer makes? A little bit like a keyhole?


On an unrelated note, I just found some third party research on laser cutting aircraft parts. Might be interesting for those doubling Vans testing of the technology. Note that it’s from 2007, so definitely not using the latest laser technology: https://www.researchgate.net/public...cts_on_aluminium_sheets_mechanical_properties
There are more papers that cite this one so there is some potential to dig into the research instead of just relying on Vans data.

 

[GrahamF]

It really is time for an update from Van's - the silence is poor form.

I don't really want to know about the testing. What interests me is when they are going to start sending replacement parts out.

 

[Heff]

I thought/hoped the same as you; I have one completed wing on my 8. I took one of the "good looking" R side ribs, reamed final size, deburred, and dimpled. I needed to use magnification, but nearly every hole had a small crack form during dimpling.

Without being cued on what to look for, and especially with primed parts, I'm 100% certain I wouldn't have seen these cracks during assembly. I have to assume the completed section is affected.

Your call, but just a data point-

Make that 2 data points. I have one 7 wing completed except for bottom skins. I don't see any cracking on the top skin rivets (that I have really good access to inspect), but doing the same exercise on uninstalled ribs, can clearly see cracking under magnification.

I was hoping the nearly complete wing would be OK based on visual inspection of the riveted holes, but it seems the rivet and primer hides the cracks.

 

[Walt]

It really is time for an update from Van's - the silence is poor form.

IMO I think Van's may be trying to figure out how to deal with this monumental crisis without bankrupting the company.

 

[georgemohr]

IMO I think Van's may be trying to figure out how to deal with this monumental crisis without bankrupting the company.

Possible, but perhaps they are just doing what they said they would do, which is to finish their extensive testing on each of these parts to determine "worst case suitability". They indicated it would take a month to six weeks as I recall.

 

[2theskyy]

One bullet from 7/15/23 vans email:
All of the parts that were manufactured beginning in 2022 utilizing the laser cutting process are now being produced on CNC punch press machines, as they were before. A smaller number of non-dimpled or non-structural parts that have always been laser cut are still being manufactured that way

There is more to this email but how I read this is I can order punched parts now until I called and was told “NO”. And that was me even trying to pay list cost as I described in earlier post.

 

[bertschb]

There is more to this email but how I read this is I can order punched parts now until I called and was told “NO”. And that was me even trying to pay list cost as I described in earlier post.

Per Vans message from 7/12/23:
"In the near future, Van’s will be providing an online method for builders to submit requests for replacement parts if and when they determine it is needed. That tool will consist of an online form that customers will need to complete and use to submit their requests. At this time we ask that you please do not call or place an order on our online store for replacement parts, as doing so will complicate the process of fulfillment."

 

[Jonnyb]

One bullet from 7/15/23 vans email:
All of the parts that were manufactured beginning in 2022 utilizing the laser cutting process are now being produced on CNC punch press machines, as they were before. A smaller number of non-dimpled or non-structural parts that have always been laser cut are still being manufactured that way

There is more to this email but how I read this is I can order punched parts now until I called and was told “NO”. And that was me even trying to pay list cost as I described in earlier post.

I wonder what would happen if you just put in a web order?

I’m one of the lucky ones, I haven’t got far with my fuse kit so all my laser cut parts are stacked up in the corner. What’s concerning me now is how long this is going to take to sort out. I’ve already waited 16 months for my kit to arrive, which it did in January. It’s now august and I can’t really get started on it.

 

[rocketman1988]

I wonder what would happen if you just put in a web order?

I’m one of the lucky ones, I haven’t got far with my fuse kit so all my laser cut parts are stacked up in the corner. What’s concerning me now is how long this is going to take to sort out. I’ve already waited 16 months for my kit to arrive, which it did in January. It’s now august and I can’t really get started on it.

So they specifically ask you NOT to place an order "as doing so will complicate the process of fulfillment".

Do you think that making that order anyway will speed up your replacement or slow it down (for everyone)?

We are our own worst enemy.

 

[TX_Flyer]

So they specifically ask you NOT to place an order "as doing so will complicate the process of fulfillment".

Do you think that making that order anyway will speed up your replacement or slow it down (for everyone)?

We are our own worst enemy.

Honestly I expect to see that those with LCP will be prioritized over web store orders for replacement parts. In other words its worth having some patience on the matter while Van's sorts it out. I do agree that updates every week or two will certainly go a long way towards reducing anxiety levels among builders.

 

[2theskyy]

Per Vans message from 7/12/23:
"In the near future, Van’s will be providing an online method for builders to submit requests for replacement parts if and when they determine it is needed. That tool will consist of an online form that customers will need to complete and use to submit their requests. At this time we ask that you please do not call or place an order on our online store for replacement parts, as doing so will complicate the process of fulfillment."

Yes. I got that same email 7/15/23. I had wanted to ask if I just purchased the parts for list cost, as they showed most online and if those were indeed the punched parts. The online order form is for free replacements is how I read it. Again, as I already posted that I’m one of the easy fixes with only a pile of parts not installed and I’d pay list $ just to get out of the way so those with QB and built kits can get the resources that I wouldn’t use. I didn’t want to just order online and get the same LCP’s.

 

[2theskyy]

So they specifically ask you NOT to place an order "as doing so will complicate the process of fulfillment".

Do you think that making that order anyway will speed up your replacement or slow it down (for everyone)?

We are our own worst enemy.

Sir, do you have a dog in this fight?
They just want us to shut up and wait. I for one want folks to come on and vent so we all can hear stories of how individual this is and that the struggle is real. Aviation is full of passionate people and that passion will and should come out.

You are an engineer so does testing production parts after an all stop, normal?
By folks venting and talking with some, I’ve learned there’s a lot more to this than just most recently. There’s history as to why folks are more upset and angry than what I or even you might know.

 

[rocketman1988]

Sir, do you have a dog in this fight?
They just want us to shut up and wait. I for one want folks to come on and vent so we all can hear stories of how individual this is and that the struggle is real. Aviation is full of passionate people and that passion will and should come out.

You are an engineer so does testing production parts after an all stop, normal?
By folks venting and talking with some, I’ve learned there’s a lot more to this than just most recently. There’s history as to why folks are more upset and angry than what I or even you might know.

No, my -10 was finished in 2020...but that really does not matter. You can vent, rant, scream and shout but it isn't going to make things happen any faster. My point was that they SPECIFICALLY said don't order parts, so why would you?

While I agree that there should be regular, even scheduled, updates, I think you really need to give them the time they need to come up with a viable solution. What would you say if they came up with a half a55ed solution and it made things worse? I have faith that they are working on it as fast as they can, and they will do the right thing. It's just a question of time.

As an engineer, testing production parts, in this case is warranted; answers need to be found, and the extent of the damage needs to be assessed. A plan then needs to be formulated and executed...it all takes time.

I am not trying to belittle your situation, it definitely sucks; all I am saying is that they need TIME to get a proper solution. Achieving a proper solution means they need answers many questions. In the end, I am sure that they will have a solution and do the right thing.

 

[bertschb]

My point was that they SPECIFICALLY said don't order parts, so why would you?

Bingo!

Vans is a small company with a big problem. Hammering them with emails, replacement orders, phone calls, etc will only delay things for everybody. As much as I'd like to have my tail kit yesterday so I can start my build, I feel the best thing I can do for Vans, myself and everybody else that is affected by this is to sit back and let Vans sort this out. Their company depends on a very well thought out and VERY well executed plan. This will take time to develop properly.

The only thing worse than the problem they already have is to botch their response.

 

[Jack_G_S]

…I am sure that they will have a solution and do the right thing.

What would the right thing even look like? If you were told that your -10 probably has microcracks at most dimples but they probably won’t propagate quickly I think you would feel differently.

 

[2theskyy]

No, my -10 was finished in 2020...but that really does not matter. You can vent, rant, scream and shout but it isn't going to make things happen any faster. My point was that they SPECIFICALLY said don't order parts, so why would you?

While I agree that there should be regular, even scheduled, updates, I think you really need to give them the time they need to come up with a viable solution. What would you say if they came up with a half a55ed solution and it made things worse? I have faith that they are working on it as fast as they can, and they will do the right thing. It's just a question of time.

As an engineer, testing production parts, in this case is warranted; answers need to be found, and the extent of the damage needs to be assessed. A plan then needs to be formulated and executed...it all takes time.

I am not trying to belittle your situation, it definitely sucks; all I am saying is that they need TIME to get a proper solution. Achieving a proper solution means they need answers many questions. In the end, I am sure that they will have a solution and do the right thing.

I also pointed out that they specifically stated that they already had punched parts. So why? So they can sell them in kits or ? I actually was trying to help financially if it would help others which are in a worse spot than I. I just have a pile of parts not installed.

So getting answers after the fact is called an investigation? So are they held back by lawyers or such to sell anything until they get answers? We don’t know other than they say be patient. They should’ve put an all stop last year instead of telling people it was all good.
So people have every right to scream and yell my friend. Because if we don’t stand up for ourselves, no one will. It’s not going to slow a darn thing down. That’s just a saying to hold down the minions. If they can’t walk a chew bubble gum at the same time then maybe they need to use some of that engineer $ and hire a PR rep to communicate.
As I tell folks when there’s a maintenance issue or delay. I won’t lie to you but I will communicate with you as I’m working other issues. As things change, I’ll communicate that change. They might be frustrated but they’ll know what’s going on.

 

[2theskyy]

Bingo!

Vans is a small company with a big problem. Hammering them with emails, replacement orders, phone calls, etc will only delay things for everybody. As much as I'd like to have my tail kit yesterday so I can start my build, I feel the best thing I can do for Vans, myself and everybody else that is affected by this is to sit back and let Vans sort this out. Their company depends on a very well thought out and VERY well executed plan. This will take time to develop properly.

The only thing worse than the problem they already have is to botch their response.

A big problem that they themselves created.
I believe we all want Vans to succeed.
I keep hearing they are a small company. Maybe it’s time to just have a few planes like when I had my RV3. Most companies go through growing pains and decisions that must be made. Our job as consumers are not to back off when there’s issues rather to say what is or is not acceptable as the consumer. Lest we forget we are paying for a service and not getting paid.

 

[bertschb]

... So people have every right to scream and yell my friend. Because if we don’t stand up for ourselves, no one will. It’s not going to slow a darn thing down.

Vans has a little over 100 employees. I'm guessing they have at best, half a dozen people manning the front line customer service department. That's probably being generous. So, if 100 or 200 of us contact Vans each week asking for updates, asking for replacement parts, asking about their QB issues, asking if they should continue building, asking about testing, asking if their kit is shipping with laser cut parts, screaming and yelling and demanding answers, you don't think that will slow things down?

These people could be used instead to help execute the plan that we're all waiting for.

You have every right to keep yelling and screaming and I have a right to do the opposite - and still stand up for myself.

 

[Jack_G_S]

Vans has a little over 100 employees. I'm guessing they have at best, half a dozen people manning the front line customer service department. That's probably being generous. So, if 100 or 200 of us contact Vans each week asking for updates, asking for replacement parts, asking about their QB issues, asking if they should continue building, asking about testing, asking if their kit is shipping with laser cut parts, screaming and yelling and demanding answers, you don't think that will slow things down?

These people could be used instead to help execute the plan that we're all waiting for.

You have every right to keep yelling and screaming and I have a right to do the opposite - and still stand up for myself.

You make a good argument for regular updates.

 

[bertschb]

You make a good argument for regular updates.

Yes, I would LOVE weekly updates from Greg. That alone would likely cut down on their customer service workload.

 

[2theskyy]

Vans has a little over 100 employees. I'm guessing they have at best, half a dozen people manning the front line customer service department. That's probably being generous. So, if 100 or 200 of us contact Vans each week asking for updates, asking for replacement parts, asking about their QB issues, asking if they should continue building, asking about testing, asking if their kit is shipping with laser cut parts, screaming and yelling and demanding answers, you don't think that will slow things down?

These people could be used instead to help execute the plan that we're all waiting for.

You have every right to keep yelling and screaming and I have a right to do the opposite - and still stand up for myself.

I felt that I’d reach out to let them know at least I’m willing to pay list cost for my stack of parts. A company will not ask for this and maybe someone in the ivory tower might come up with an idea to send out an email to state something to the fact that some are willing to pay for parts so QB or assembled kit owners might get more focused help.
We all stand up for ourselves in different ways. I just feel many got screwed hard with superior, ECI etc. that I hope this is not just another avenue as that. Many heard similar responses and non responses in those situations as well. They spent at least 12k for new crank plus labor and got $750 for their old crank. The entire time they were told a rework was sent to the FAA and it wasn’t. This is different or hope it is. Lest Vans not go as Bill Ross did. Lie

 

[Tlrguy]

Vans has a little over 100 employees. I'm guessing they have at best, half a dozen people manning the front line customer service department. That's probably being generous. So, if 100 or 200 of us contact Vans each week asking for updates, asking for replacement parts, asking about their QB issues, asking if they should continue building, asking about testing, asking if their kit is shipping with laser cut parts, screaming and yelling and demanding answers, you don't think that will slow things down?

These people could be used instead to help execute the plan that we're all waiting for.

You have every right to keep yelling and screaming and I have a right to do the opposite - and still stand up for myself.

A simple update would curb all these negative worries but I imagine someone is advising Greg to stay quiet, or at least relay no addition info as it has the potential to be incriminating.

I know I’m loosing sleep over this right now. I imagine the folks at Van’s whom made these terrible decisions are doing the same. I do not wish that on anybody.

 

[rocketman1988]

Go ahead

I guess what it comes down to is beat your head against the wall and get ever more stressed and angry. It isn’t going to make any difference. You will either wait for Van’s solution, or you won’t.

As has been stated time and time again, it is a big problem with a complex solution. That solution takes TIME…

Again, I would agree that frequent updates would go a long way in quelling the frustration…

 

[2theskyy]

I guess what it comes down to is beat your head against the wall and get ever more stressed and angry. It isn’t going to make any difference. You will either wait for Van’s solution, or you won’t.

As has been stated time and time again, it is a big problem with a complex solution. That solution takes TIME…

Again, I would agree that frequent updates would go a long way in quelling the frustration…

Oh, I’m not stressed or angry. Although some are and probably have good reason. You’re absolutely correct, wait or not. Either way it’s a wait and the wait would be better with regular updates.
Just seems from the info they put out already that they are making a simple problem into a complex one, except for the money factor. That’s what most things come down to.
Who pays for the mistake. That my friend might be the complexity

 

[dmattmul]

My reply

Rather than responding to someone's (Which many I agree with and some I do not) I wanted to express my opinion without adding a input swirl.

1) Vans is now trying to evaluate exactly what parts they feel are "OK" and parts they feel need a no stop have to replace status. They have already indicated that some parts will need to be replaced. That part is easy. The question is probably facing them now what parts that are attached to this part needs to be replaced? Sure, they could start by replacing the subject parts they have identified as substandard but that answers only half the question. They probably want to figure out now the final impact to minimize shipping costs which will play a part in this.

2) Vans is now producing probably thousands of punch parts every day as we speak. They can't start shipping parts to those who want to pay any price for these although financially an advantage for them their customers would cry foul, I would. (I waited over 2 years for a QB wing kit and now that wing kit is possibly subject to LCP's) They have said don't bother calling or asking to be sent new parts, I agree doing that is just a waste of resources for them so probably need to comply.

3) I would like to get more technical data on LCP's and thank DeMan for posting the link. I've requested the full article but need to wait for the authors to approve me. If anyone could post the PDF might help all of us be more informative. When I was at OSH I went to several larger kit builders and enquired about LCP's and if they used them. Was basically told they do not and cannot use LCPs for structural members. Steel yes, non-structural yes but not for LCP's in structural applications. I am sure there are some engineers out there who worked for certified aircraft builders, what is your knowledge base in this?

4) This might be the most controversial paragraph, but it appears the issue with LCPs first came up last Sept when builders were asking about dimple cracking and dark spots. Even a well-known DAR and A&P on this site asked "are these LCPs" so Vans knew they had at least a potential problem. If all it took was a review of the parts and the manufactures process as described by Rian at OSH 2023 seems this simple fix could have been corrected by Oct 2022. There must be more to the story.

5) We all want Vans to succeed. They obviously can't stop any income stream from coming in. Not including variable costs their fixed cost must exceed over 2 million a month. Add to that variable and they are looking at a burn rate of over 3 to 4 million a month. (My estimate which is pure speculation) For a mid-size company that is not sustainable. (Hopefully they were able to get some PPP to help offset some of these costs) My GUESS is banks will not want to loan them money and at today's interest rates and adding in the banks risk factor they will want as a premium going to get ugly. A possible option for them would be to issue bonds that would pay a premium over current bonds but less than banks want. Banks can be a nightmare to deal with (along with interest payments, fees and compliance costs) and if Vans does not like comments made on this forum they will hate dealing with banks, I did when I was in the corporate world. I would sign up for these as I'm sure many others would. We need to help protect this company but having a little more transparency would help.

 

[Dean Pichon]

I don’t really have any skin in this game as my RV was finished long before laser cut parts were a thing. Long before pre-punched anything was a thing now that I think about it. I have, however, been a customer of Van’s since I purchased a tail kit 30+ years ago. I’ve been flying my plane for 22 years and buying parts, and complying with service bulletins, and asking the occasional question since the start, so I do want Vans to succeed. The viability of my aircraft and (someday) its re-sale value depend on Van’s survival.

I’ve been an Engineer for a long time, too, and have been on both sides of this type of nightmare a few times. All companies that survive long enough will have technical issues such as these and these issues generally come with a PR component at least as challenging. This is certainly the largest I have seen impacting Vans. I have no doubt the technical challenges will be resolved, but how Vans defines its future will be measured by how they respect and communicate with their customers. Based on the 60 pages, and counting, of customer input, it appears Vans has clearly demonstrated they have great opportunity to improve in this area.