[abaden]

of course it is going to affect resale. if i am looking at 2 airplanes and the workmanship on both is equal of course i am going to consider the one with laser cut holes of less value.

Has the corrosion issue from Quickbuilds ~2 years ago affected resale of those kits/completed aircraft?

 

[Pelley]

Imagine you bought a brand new special edition corvette and the first time you wash it the paint peels, or on the way home the engine blows. Chevy will replace the engine and fix the paint but both would affect resale value and I can guarantee they are not going to compensate for “lost resale value”…. So what’s your point? Do you expect Vans to refund you for potential money you will loose on resale before you even know if you will loose money on resale? I don’t get it.

 

[KRviator]

Imagine you bought a brand new special edition corvette and the first time you wash it the paint peels, or on the way home the engine blows. Chevy will replace the engine and fix the paint but both would affect resale value and I can guarantee they are not going to compensate for “lost resale value”…. So what’s your point? Do you expect Vans to refund you for potential money you will loose on resale before you even know if you will loose money on resale? I don’t get it.

I don't have a dog in this fight - my 9's long been flying - but to answer your question, no, I don't expect Vans to compensate builders for that theoretical lost money.

But I was pointing out that there will be lost value on one of two otherwise-identical aircraft as a result of the LC parts issue on the one that was built at the time they were shipped. Granted, there probably aren't two identical RV's anywhere on the entire planet, but it doesn't change the fact that buyers may be put off by it and if you are in receipt of a kit that does contain these LC parts, you would be well advised to thoroughly document the issue and what you did to remove the parts from your build. Emails from Vans, picking slips, lots of photos, etc etc...

Otherwise it'll become 'he said, she said', and as someone who's actively looking to buy another plane, that doesn't cut the mustard for me. I don't think I'm alone in that regard.

 

[boom3]

Ok, here is one example -

A large majority of the 3/32 rivets used to rivet the side and upper tail cone skins to the main longerons were AN426A3-6.

For anyone not aware, this is a soft rivet. It is not typically used for structural load applications.
The builder must have run out and ordered some from Aircraft Spruce (I found the opened, partially used bag in with all of the extra parts and hardware that came with the project when I bought it.

This error would likely never be detected on a painted aircraft because even a light paint job has enough paint applied that it flows over rivets enough to hide the dimple in the manufactured head indicates an AD rivet. "A" (soft) rivets have no dimple.

Definitely something to watch for. I'm sure it's super rare, but I received some soft rivets from Vans with my fuse kit back in 2007.

https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=23674&highlight=soft+rivets

 

[scsmith]

Definitely something to watch for. I'm sure it's super rare, but I received some soft rivets from Vans with my fuse kit back in 2007.

https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=23674&highlight=soft+rivets

I have ordered "A" (soft) rivets from ACS by mistake once. Their web page for ordering makes it a rather easy mistake to make. I think it would be a contribution to safety for them to separate them into two separate order pages rather than have them together on one page.

Back to the main topic:

 

[scsmith]

I have a question for Greg:

As I understand it, at some point there will be a company website or similar where we should record what laser-cut parts we have that we would like replaced.
I have a rudder kit shipped 3/1/23 that has some laser-cut parts that I would like replaced BUT I'm not in any hurry at all. It will be quite a while before I set out to build that rudder.

So, my question is, should I sit back and stay out of the way so Vans can address higher-priority customers first and then re-order much later when I need the replacements, or should I record the parts I need right away along with everyone else so Vans has a better idea of how big a batch of each parts to run in sequence for the replacements?

I'll do whichever helps the collective the most.

 

[airguy]

I have a question for Greg:

As I understand it, at some point there will be a company website or similar where we should record what laser-cut parts we have that we would like replaced.
I have a rudder kit shipped 3/1/23 that has some laser-cut parts that I would like replaced BUT I'm not in any hurry at all. It will be quite a while before I set out to build that rudder.

So, my question is, should I sit back and stay out of the way so Vans can address higher-priority customers first and then re-order much later when I need the replacements, or should I record the parts I need right away along with everyone else so Vans has a better idea of how big a batch of each parts to run in sequence for the replacements?

I'll do whichever helps the collective the most.

I'm already gathering part numbers for replacement as well - but I have not yet seen anything from Vans about a replacement parts claim process.

 

[Cholley6]

I'm not sure by how much I am affected by the laser parts. My emp kit was shipped 6-8-22. I was finishing bucking the last 100 or so rivets in the tailcone when the news dropped about the laser parts. I've gone back and looked at as many pics as I have and I cannot definitively prove that my spars were all punched, but I'm pretty sure I peeled vinyl off them. 2 frames in my tailcone that are both partially riveted are laser cut, I remember having to clean up a few holes while prepping and I do have pics of them with no vinyl on first inventory. I won't be surprised if I need to drill them out.

Questions (too many pages now to read every post to see if this was mentioned.)

Is there any idea yet if they will have the ability to tell which customers received laser parts and which ones did not? Traceability of parts? I too think this is something that should be updated in the future, but what's in the past can only be learned from. We do this in the produce industry to assist in the event of a food safety issue or recall.

On the subject of drilling out rivets. I have had to drill out enough on my build so far, I have good confidence of being able to do so without damage to the parts, but I have yet to drill out entire parts, so far just a rivet here and there. How much of a concern is there about hole stretch from having all the holes in a line on the skin previously been riveted?

 

[jjmanton]

I'm not sure by how much I am affected by the laser parts. My emp kit was shipped 6-8-22. I was finishing bucking the last 100 or so rivets in the tailcone when the news dropped about the laser parts. I've gone back and looked at as many pics as I have and I cannot definitively prove that my spars were all punched, but I'm pretty sure I peeled vinyl off them. 2 frames in my tailcone that are both partially riveted are laser cut, I remember having to clean up a few holes while prepping and I do have pics of them with no vinyl on first inventory. I won't be surprised if I need to drill them out.

Questions (too many pages now to read every post to see if this was mentioned.)

Is there any idea yet if they will have the ability to tell which customers received laser parts and which ones did not? Traceability of parts? I too think this is something that should be updated in the future, but what's in the past can only be learned from. We do this in the produce industry to assist in the event of a food safety issue or recall.

On the subject of drilling out rivets. I have had to drill out enough on my build so far, I have good confidence of being able to do so without damage to the parts, but I have yet to drill out entire parts, so far just a rivet here and there. How much of a concern is there about hole stretch from having all the holes in a line on the skin previously been riveted?

If you happen to be building an RV-10, my Emp kit was shipped 6/10/22. I can share my list of parts if you would like. I have pictures to document it all. Shoot me a PM. It might not be exactly the same, but probably pretty close.

 

[jcbarker]

vinyl covered parts

My emp kit was shipped early May 2022. Here's a picture of all the parts piled on my work table. All of them are covered in vinyl. Does that mean they were NOT lasered? I sure hope so because they have long since been built.
Apologies if this has been covered. I've read most of the 48 pages of this thread but that doesn't mean I didn't miss this.
View attachment 45922

 

[lipper03]

My emp kit was shipped early May 2022. Here's a picture of all the parts piled on my work table. All of them are covered in vinyl. Does that mean they were NOT lasered? I sure hope so because they have long since been built.
Apologies if this has been covered. I've read most of the 48 pages of this thread but that doesn't mean I didn't miss this.
View attachment 45922

I recommend checking each piece of the laser parts list on van’s website. I have a June 22 emp kit, which has many laser parts, confirmed without blue and with dimple inner edge features.

 

[bertschb]

All of them are covered in vinyl. Does that mean they were NOT lasered?[/ATTACH]

Correct

Per Vans announcement:
"If your part was shipped with blue vinyl on the surfaces, you can know that it was CNC-punched and is not a laser-cut part."


Vans announcement (recommended reading for those affected):
https://www.vansaircraft.com/2023/0...impled-hole-cracking-on-some-laser-cut-parts/

 

[jcbarker]

QB assys

On a related note: Have we heard anything on what parts were used in the QB assemblies during the time period Feb 2022 and June 2023?

 

[ryan24]

On a related note: Have we heard anything on what parts were used in the QB assemblies during the time period Feb 2022 and June 2023?

No, there has been very little communication on the QB kits that I've seen so far. At this point, I’m assuming that all of the parts on the list are included in my QB fuse that arrived at the end of June. And I have seen some evidence of cracking at rivet holes that are inspectable, but only under magnification.

Really looking forward to hearing some feedback from Van's on the expected options for the affected QB kits. I know that testing is underway and we're all waiting on that, but if the conclusions from the testing program are that cracked fastener holes perform as well or better than non-cracked punched holes, I don’t think that is going to alleviate the concerns of most builders that are affected by this. I hope that the results of the testing are intended to inform one of several options that will be made available.

 

[dforgerson]

I started an RV-10 build about 7 months ago (Christmas 2022). I have an Empennage Kit and a Wing Kit. The empennage is mostly built, and the wings have not been started. Both of my kits have laser cut parts in them.

* It is difficult to argue that laser cut parts are a minor or negligible problem since Van's has already identified some of them as red (Replace).

* I will not be building an RV-10 with any laser cut parts in it. This is for my own safety, the safety of my passengers, resale value, and potential problems with insurance.

* It does not matter much to me how Van's reliability testing comes out. I will be replacing my entire Empennage Kit. The only issue is whether Van's will cover part of the cost of a new Empennage kit. IMO the idea of drilling out enough rivets to replace a spar is insane. The reliability of the piece you end up with is almost certainly going to be worse that what you started with.

* I will make a list of parts in the Wing kit that might possibly have been laser cut, and I will order them. If Van's has a new web page for doing this, then great. If Van's covers part or all of the cost, then great.

* The cost of building an RV-10 is around $200k. The cost of a new Empennage Kit is about $6k. So, a new Empennage Kit is about 3% of the cost of the plane. I am willing to pay an additional 3% for the peace of mind. There is some shared responsibility for this problem, so maybe Van's will at least pay for the shipping.

* The lead time for a new RV-10 Empennage Kit on Van's web site is about 2 months. My experience is that their lead time estimates are totally worthless. Their lead time estimate for my Wing Kit was off by 6-8 months. I would consider myself lucky to get a new Empennage Kit within 6 months. Van's should update their lead time web page to indicate that there is complete uncertainty due to the laser cut parts problem.

I watched the video of Van's presentation at Oshkosh. The quality of the audio and video was not very good, but it was much better than nothing and many thanks to whoever recorded it. I agree with everyone else that thinks that Van's could have done a better job in making this video. After watching the video, I am not convinced that Van's is doing their reliability testing properly. Here are my thoughts:

* Van's should have done more to investigate and confirm their theories about the cause of the problem. Show that if you rotate the start/stop point for the hole 90 degrees, the problem moves by 90 degrees. Show that if you increase the time at the start/stop point, the problem gets worse. Show that if you increase/decrease the laser power, the problem gets worse/better. Show that if you decrease/increase the speed of the laser travel, the problem gets worse/better.

* Once you have a pretty good understanding of what is going on, you should do all of your reliability testing on parts where every single hole is about 25% worse than any hole that ever got shipped. Only then will all of your reliability testing be truly worst case. If you are not testing the absolute worst possible case, then people will never know for sure if their parts are definitely OK or not.

It is quite possible that Van's has done this work, and they just did not have enough time at Oshkosh to talk about it. If so, they need to more thoroughly and clearly communicate the extent of their reliability testing.

FYI: You can buy a digital microscope on Amazon for $30-$50. This is the one that I got: Ninyoon 4K WiFi Microscope. It was $34. It arrives tomorrow. If I get some good pictures, I will post them somewhere.

 

[mulde35d]

My Hope

To Van's Aircraft.

My only real hope is that Van's interacts and supports each of us on an individual level based upon our respective situations. Some that came in later or don't build fast have an easy time replacing unbuilt parts on a shelf or rebuilding an elevator or two. Others (like me for one) who have a empennage, wing, and fuselage 100% complete to include the laser cut parts are in a very different boat when it comes to replacement of things with words like spar and bulkhead in the name. Everyone's situation will be slightly different and require different levels of support to recover. I hope consideration is made on an individual level.

 

[Tlrguy]

I
* It is difficult to argue that laser cut parts are a minor or negligible problem since Van's has already identified some of them as red (Replace).

* I will not be building an RV-10 with any laser cut parts in it. This is for my own safety, the safety of my passengers, resale value, and potential problems with insurance.

I think you are going to find a lot of builders taking this exact stance on the issue and please don’t think for even a second that you are going to be footing the bill on this.

 

[bob865]

I finally got through all of my parts and it looks like I managed to dodge most of the bullets. I have only 2 parts which are definitely laser cut. One was a doubler for and access panel and the other was a rebuy of an elevator part for another task so not even part of my wing kit. I have 2 which do not look laser cut but are on the "REPLACE" list so I'll replace. Last I have fully assembled all of the the aileron and flap parts so I have not way to check. Of course I cannot remember what/if any of these parts were blue filmed when I got them so I don't know if they were laser cut or not. I'm not going to rebuild these. Based on the results in my wing kit, odds are in my favor that they were not laser cut and I did not have any cracking during any of the assembly processes I have no reason to believe at this point that they are laser cut. I will add an inspection checkpoint on my condition inspection checklist to watch for cracks, but I can't justify the time to rebuild on such low odds.

I can say this is yet another example of Vans losing control of their quality. 2 of the parts identified as laser cut I've already had to have replaced due to heat treatment issues. The flanges were cracked through from the stamping process and they made it all the way to me (and I'm not the only one that received these) with with such gross defects. Vans had such a good reputation when I started this process and why I selected my kit, but I can also say my experience has been less than excellent.

 

[bmellis11]

To Van's Aircraft.

My only real hope is that Van's interacts and supports each of us on an individual level based upon our respective situations. Some that came in later or don't build fast have an easy time replacing unbuilt parts on a shelf or rebuilding an elevator or two. Others (like me for one) who have a empennage, wing, and fuselage 100% complete to include the laser cut parts are in a very different boat when it comes to replacement of things with words like spar and bulkhead in the name. Everyone's situation will be slightly different and require different levels of support to recover. I hope consideration is made on an individual level.

100% agree on this, given that I've finished the empennage and am at QB stage of my fuselage build and can't build now while I wait for replacement parts and my other kits. I recommended to Rian at Oshkosh that they come up with some sort of priority system that is not based just on order date. At the least that could be a system where people give an estimate on how soon they will need the parts so that builders that need it sooner can go first and everyone will get what they need when they need it. He thought it was a good idea so hopefully they will come up with something that maximizes the benefit to the most amount of people.

 

[Everwild]

My Hope Also.

I also hope to receive individual support. Maybe a case manager of some sort who can work with us on a one on one basis.

My wing kit is impacted and my tanks, leading edges and wings are built up to the point of starting to install the top skins on the wings. I think replacing the inspar wing ribs will be relatively painless at this stage.

However, I will be building new tanks if Vans determines the baffles and other internals need to be replaced. There's no way I'm going to accept or try and peel all of that stuff apart and hope it goes back together without leaks. In that case, I would expect to receive all new parts to build new tanks. I'll spring for the $200 worth of ProSeal, rags, MEK, tape, etc and eat 140 hours it took to build the first set.

Outboard leading edges will depend on the condition of the skins once I drill out all of those rivets. If the skins get damaged during disassembly, I would expect to receive new skins.

After building the emp, you finally get in a groove and I was really happy with the work on the wings.... then we get a nice hard kick in the gonads.

 

[dforgerson]

To Van's Aircraft.

My only real hope is that Van's interacts and supports each of us on an individual level based upon our respective situations. Some that came in later or don't build fast have an easy time replacing unbuilt parts on a shelf or rebuilding an elevator or two. Others (like me for one) who have a empennage, wing, and fuselage 100% complete to include the laser cut parts are in a very different boat when it comes to replacement of things with words like spar and bulkhead in the name. Everyone's situation will be slightly different and require different levels of support to recover. I hope consideration is made on an individual level.

Van's could easily share with us the number of builders affected by the laser cut parts problem. An accurate number is readily available. How many email letters did they send out notifying builders about this problem? If the number is < 50, I think that it is reasonable to expect some individual attention. If the number is > 500, I do not think that it is either likely or reasonable. It is probably in between. I would not get my hopes up.

Van's is monitoring this thread. If you have a proposal for how Van's should handle your specific case, then let's hear it. What do you think would be practical and reasonable for Van's to do in your specific case?

 

[Everwild]

Van's is monitoring this thread. If you have a proposal for how Van's should handle your specific case, then let's hear it. What do you think would be practical and reasonable for Van's to do in your specific case?

I think each builders case will be unique and whatever system Vans puts in place for replacement parts should allow for the builder to document or justify why they are requesting more than just parts on the laser cut list.

For example all new tank parts considering the practicalities of disassembling and reassembling sealed tanks. Or for those who are concerned about various match drilled assemblies that require new parts to satisfy tolerances. Or simply replacing parts that get damaged during the disassembly process. While I'm sure builders will take as much care as their skill level permits, parts will be damaged as a result of this work which would not otherwise have needed to happen if the underlying parts were not defective.

This could be done using some type of online part replacement form, or handled through a CSR. Either way, someone from Vans is going to need to review each builders request and either approve or deny replacement of the requested parts based on their unique situation.

 

[dforgerson]

I recommended to Rian at Oshkosh that they come up with some sort of priority system that is not based just on order date. At the least that could be a system where people give an estimate on how soon they will need the parts so that builders that need it sooner can go first and everyone will get what they need when they need it.

This is something that Van's should have done many years ago. I am sure that it has been suggested many times over the years. I have had 2-3 interactions with their customer service where I would rate them as A. I have also had 2-3 interactions with their customer service where I would rate them as F. That gives them an average of about C. I hope that your interactions have been significantly better. This was during normal times. During this time of crisis I would rate the probability of significant improvements to their customer service at ~0%. I only see two possibilities for hope in this area. 1) If there is significant financial reward in it for Van's. Some sort of premium for expedited service. Probably a very substantial premium. 2) If enough customers complain about their customer service. Van's is monitoring this thread. Now is your chance.

 

[Everwild]

Shipping sucks

And IMO it would certainly be reasonable for Vans to limit the number of shipments required to deliver one's requested parts. In my experience a $63 rear wing spar cost $800 to ship. I ultimately found another builder receiving a kit in my area and piggybacked.

Vans might want to invest in a truck or two and start making deliveries considering LTL prices right now. Or send these parts with a builders next kit for those who have ordered them already.

 

[lr172]

At the least that could be a system where people give an estimate on how soon they will need the parts so that builders that need it sooner can go first and everyone will get what they need when they need it. .

Seems a lot of people were quoted a one year wait for kits and then 2 years later a box shows up with a significant percentage of parts backordered with no timeline on when they will arrive. Who in their right mind would volunteer to go to the back of the line in that environment? I feel for you guys, but suspect there is not an easy way through this.

 

[dforgerson]

I think each builders case will be unique and whatever system Vans puts in place for replacement parts should allow for the builder to document or justify why they are requesting more than just parts on the laser cut list.

For example all new tank parts considering the practicalities of disassembling and reassembling sealed tanks. Or for those who are concerned about various match drilled assemblies that require new parts to satisfy tolerances. Or simply replacing parts that get damaged during the disassembly process. While I'm sure builders will take as much care as their skill level permits, parts will be damaged as a result of this work which would not otherwise have needed to happen if the underlying parts were not defective.

This could be done using some type of online part replacement form, or handled through a CSR. Either way, someone from Vans is going to need to review each builders request and either approve or deny replacement of the requested parts based on their unique situation.

The first step is to figure out how Van's should handle a few reasonably typical specific cases. Until you know that, talking about what kind of forms and procedures Van's should put in place is a waste of time. So, I repeat:

If you have a proposal for how Van's should handle your specific case, then let's hear it. What do you think would be practical and reasonable for Van's to do in your specific case?

 

[tenacious9]

Seems a lot of people were quoted a one year wait for kits and then 2 years later a box shows up with a significant percentage of parts backordered with no timeline on when they will arrive. Who in their right mind would volunteer to go to the back of the line in that environment? I feel for you guys, but suspect there is not an easy way through this.

I have 2 QB kits. Both are laser cut. I'm worried about the silence from Van's. Several emails and 11 days later zero responses.

Both my kits have not been touched and are in the inventory stage. I won't continue my build and invest in an airplane with known defects. I also will not Remove and Replace the laser cut parts (possibly causing significant damage).

The testing is lip stick on a pig. Van's at OSH was very clear - NO laser cuts parts going forward - NONE. I bought my kit because there are 10K+ planes that have tested the design over a billion miles. I don't want a one-off airplane, with laser parts that haven't meet the aforementioned test of time.

But to your point - I know this won't be easy for a company Van's size. I also don't know Van's level of exposure. It really depends on how much folks have built out their kits. The QB kits IMHO are the ones that are most impacted and I can't see any other way than replacement. To help them; I would be able to wait a significant amount of time for new QB kits. But I would want written assurances that they would indeed replace the QB kits I have.

Thoughts?

 

[Tlrguy]

Flying Magazine Article

Here is an update to the terribly written article from about a week ago. Ultimately this article must not be taken as Van’s word, but you know Van’s and Flying sat down for a chat.

Very interesting cue as to what might be going on behind the scenes in the last paragraph.

https://www.flyingmag.com/vans-upda..._source=facebook&hss_channel=fbp-331681751313

 

[TX_Flyer]

The first step is to figure out how Van's should handle a few reasonably typical specific cases. Until you know that, talking about what kind of forms and procedures Van's should put in place is a waste of time. So, I repeat:

If you have a proposal for how Van's should handle your specific case, then let's hear it. What do you think would be practical and reasonable for Van's to do in your specific case?

I feel lucky in that I have only started my empennage so my case is rather easy. My HS has a bad rear spar, the front Spar had blue plastic, my ribs are a mix of laser and punch parts.

My VS I have not finished closing out, but the spars are both good with blue plastic, and the ribs appear to be punched.

Rudder has a mix a laser and punched parts, same with elevators.

Solution for me:

Best case, new HS kit and replace laser parts at my request on rudder and elevator. I am confident the VS is good.

Worst case, Vans sends me new rear spar and I drill out a fair number of rivets on the HS, and Vans replaces laser cut parts for elevator and rudder.

Honestly, I think this is best case scenario for Vans and myself as I had only started. Those with QB kits, or nearly completed aircraft I truly feel for you in this situation.

 

[swift12]

I have a finishing kit due this year. I have offered my 45 replacement ribs be included in that. This would save vans a lot of shipping cost and the aggravation of importation costs or exportation of faulty parts (if you don’t export faulty parts you pay to import replacement parts….very fair system we have here in nz….NOT…..and they won’t accept a zero dollar value on a single shipment)
Sucks to have to shelve the wings for now but I’m trying to be reasonable, accomodating and proactive. They can be slipped into my finishing kit for the least cost but more time wasted to me. Thankfully I have a non laser fuselage to continue with mean time.

Hopefully vans can look at buddying up shipments especially to other countries with builders in the same area as this should save them time and cost. At times I have ordered from vans for both myself and two others to share shipping which works quite well.

 

[GrahamF]

In my specific case - what I expect

I have an RV-7 emp kit 95% built. All assemblies contain laser-cut parts and none can realistically be broken down without destroying the quality of the build. I expect Van's to provide a complete new emp kit, FoC.

I have an RV-7 wing kit, barely started and nothing riveted. All ribs are laser cut, as are the tank baffles and most flap/aileron components. I expect Van's to replace all laser-cut parts FoC.

I don't look at this as a builder, an engineer or an aviator. I look at this as a customer who has not received what he paid for.

 

[WildThing]

Here's some interesting FYI from the Facebook group "Van's Aircraft Builders":

Mike Adams
Top contributor
Disclaimer: I own a laser cutting business and I’m expanding to a second location. I do not subcontract for Vans, nor do I make aircraft production parts nor do I have any intention of getting into that space.
Some of the comments on the subject posted are beyond absurd concerning the the suitability of a laser cut part.
What I will say is it appears whoever they contracted the work to appears to be either very new to laser cutting, or has exceptionally low, sloppy workmanship and/or is using the wrong laser for the job.
It really goes beyond the scope of what concerns a builder other than there should be no compromise.
For those interested, fiber laser cutting is assisted with either air, N2, O2, or Argon.
The beam width fiber core varies and with the exception of a couple models cannot be adjusted.
The power of the generator varies.
The mode, single mode or multi mode depends on the fiber generator
The X, Y, Z motion system varies, (ball screw is more accurate than a rack drive)
The use of extra blow gas and lead in, lead out affects the final result.
From some of the photos I saw it appears the laser operator made most if not all the wrong choices.
Not all laser cuts are created equal.
I constructed most of a RV-4 airframe during the 90’s and have owned an Art Chard built -4 since 2006 (no it’s not for sale). I would have no issues building or buying a kit, or finished airplane with laser cut parts IF, the cutting parameters, laser power, beam width, assist gas, and parameters were set up correctly to produce uncompromised parts.
This was a QA fail.
The burn mark in the photo is a laser flash ricocheted off steel slats. Another example of poor work. The guy should be using new copper slats, with most of them removed to prevent flash back burn marks like that. I can’t stop shaking my head.
Another point, the fiber laser can defilm, then cut, leaving all the protective film outside the cut undisturbed, but that’s in the 201 class and the guy that did this work for Vans isn’t even up to 101.

 

[CizzoPilot]

I think regardless of the outcome, there are going to be some builders who end up terminating their project. This could lead to an influx of laser cut projects on the market. One option Vans could consider is partial/value based refunds for completed kits. This may help offset some losses if the builder tries to sell their kit.

For some builders who enjoy a challenge, these kits could be a bargain. Especially if Vans also offers "laser cut rebuild kits" on their site. Basically, everything a person would need to make the kit non-laser cut. The builder wins by getting out from under it and Vans wins by reducing shipments back and forth plus potentially keeping kits from being condemned when they could just need some extra attention.

For the quickbuilds Vans currently has, I think they could offer them with the laser cut parts plus everything needed to replace these parts. Rather than the full $9k for the quickbuild option, they could offer them at a reduced rate since they will need to be disassembled and repaired. This could keep their supply chain moving and reduce cost for shipping quickbuilds back to be repaired.

 

[deMan]

Not all laser cuts are created equal.

I think this is really important to remember.

This whole issue is NOT about all laser cut parts, only a a subset.
People on here are starting to treat any and all laser cut parts like they will make a plane fall apart on first flight.

Scrapping assemblies because the maybe contain laser cut parts that maybe are bad that maybe are not strong enough/maybe have a shorter life is a lot of maybes.

Let’s also remember all the service bulletins for cracks out there. People are flying with much worse cracks than the ones in laser cut dimples. I also know people that decided against tearing their plane apart to install these service bulletins but rather monitor condition and start acting once inspection shows they are affected.

I’m not saying cracked dimples are great but they can very well be handled.
Give it some time and once the emotions have cooled down these bad laser cut parts will just be another service bulletin. That’s how things always work.

Right now I feel like there is a lot of “perfection getting in the way of good enough”.

 

[Tlrguy]

I think this is really important to remember.

This whole issue is NOT about all laser cut parts, only a a subset.
People on here are starting to treat any and all laser cut parts like they will make a plane fall apart on first flight.

Scrapping assemblies because the maybe contain laser cut parts that maybe are bad that maybe are not strong enough/maybe have a shorter life is a lot of maybes.

Let’s also remember all the service bulletins for cracks out there. People are flying with much worse cracks than the ones in laser cut dimples. I also know people that decided against tearing their plane apart to install these service bulletins but rather monitor condition and start acting once inspection shows they are affected.

I’m not saying cracked dimples are great but they can very well be handled.
Give it some time and once the emotions have cooled down these bad laser cut parts will just be another service bulletin. That’s how things always work.

Right now I feel like there is a lot of “perfection getting in the way of good enough”.

Odds are you don’t have any skin in this game. Gimme a year of your life and 100k and I guarantee that tone will change.

I would agree that not all laser cut parts are the same. Problem is, Vans doesn’t know which ones are good vs bad and even more f’ed up, who received them.

Presented with the current information, I see no other option other than to start over on affected parts or send a truck and a check. Boy I hope Vans comes up with a miracle.

 

[rv8ch]

Here's some interesting FYI from the Facebook group "Van's Aircraft Builders":

Mike Adams
Top contributor
Disclaimer: I own a laser cutting business and I’m expanding to a second location. I do not subcontract for Vans, nor do I make aircraft production parts nor do I have any intention of getting into that space.
Some of the comments on the subject posted are beyond absurd concerning the the suitability of a laser cut part.
What I will say is it appears whoever they contracted the work to appears to be either very new to laser cutting, or has exceptionally low, sloppy workmanship and/or is using the wrong laser for the job.
It really goes beyond the scope of what concerns a builder other than there should be no compromise.
For those interested, fiber laser cutting is assisted with either air, N2, O2, or Argon.
The beam width fiber core varies and with the exception of a couple models cannot be adjusted.
The power of the generator varies.
The mode, single mode or multi mode depends on the fiber generator
The X, Y, Z motion system varies, (ball screw is more accurate than a rack drive)
The use of extra blow gas and lead in, lead out affects the final result.
From some of the photos I saw it appears the laser operator made most if not all the wrong choices.
Not all laser cuts are created equal.
I constructed most of a RV-4 airframe during the 90’s and have owned an Art Chard built -4 since 2006 (no it’s not for sale). I would have no issues building or buying a kit, or finished airplane with laser cut parts IF, the cutting parameters, laser power, beam width, assist gas, and parameters were set up correctly to produce uncompromised parts.
This was a QA fail.
The burn mark in the photo is a laser flash ricocheted off steel slats. Another example of poor work. The guy should be using new copper slats, with most of them removed to prevent flash back burn marks like that. I can’t stop shaking my head.
Another point, the fiber laser can defilm, then cut, leaving all the protective film outside the cut undisturbed, but that’s in the 201 class and the guy that did this work for Vans isn’t even up to 101.

Thanks for this, Jeff. Not being much of a facebook user, I would have never seen this post. It's good to hear that laser cutting can be done correctly, even for this application, which validates Van's decision to use this technology. As the FB poster mentioned, it does seem to be a supplier management and quality assurance failure, not a technology choice failure.

 

[dmattmul]

Maybe

Thanks for this, Jeff. Not being much of a facebook user, I would have never seen this post. It's good to hear that laser cutting can be done correctly, even for this application, which validates Van's decision to use this technology. As the FB poster mentioned, it does seem to be a supplier management and quality assurance failure, not a technology choice failure.

Disclaimer: I own a laser cutting business and I’m expanding to a second location. I do not subcontract for Vans, nor do I make aircraft production parts nor do I have any intention of getting into that space.

I not sure how this validates Vans decision to use laser cut technology but would love to hear from Van's management and engineering. By the way I received "The e-mail" letting me know my QB wings which I waited over 2 years to receive was affected. Sure, you can mess up any process but that does not mean the process and technology met the engineering criteria to begin with. There is probably a reason why laser cut parts for structural aircraft applications has not taken off, pardon the pun. When I asked the Sling owner and engineer if he used laser cut parts in his airframes and his comment was "we would love to, but the application is not suitable". I have also read on VAF posts that certified airframes don't use laser cut parts. This may or may not be true but definitely the Sling manager told me he "doesn't use laser cut parts". Not that I don't find these posts on VAF informative but would be nice to hear something from Vans. Seems even a good copy of the presentation from last Tues for people who have invested a bunch of money and a lot of labor and could not make OSH would be good. By the way using LCP's for non-structural applications does not count.

This not bashing Vans and I still believe their airframes are the best in the world but a little more information on how they decided laser cut technology was ok and further how they decided this supplier could be ok would be informative.

 

[deMan]

Odds are you don’t have any skin in this game. Gimme a year of your life and 100k and I guarantee that tone will change.

I would agree that not all laser cut parts are the same. Problem is, Vans doesn’t know which ones are good vs bad and even more f’ed up, who received them.

Presented with the current information, I see no other option other than to start over on affected parts or send a truck and a check. Boy I hope Vans comes up with a miracle.

I have skin in the game. My empennage was built last year and I got a wing kit with a bunch of laser cut parts.

I spent hours coming through pictures I’ve taken trying to see which parts were laser cut in my empennage. On some I had so start “enhancing” them to read the date on the sticker. I even went through the scrap bin to find the cutoffs from the laser cut elevator stiffeners so could look at the original holes.

I was able to use the data I collected about the plane I am building and based on that data I definitely will not rebuild the elevators just because the stiffeners are laser cut.

I was also use the available data to decide I can use the laser cut wing ribs I have. What data? 1. The holes in those parts look properly cut, 2. The data from Vans original testing on laser cut parts, 3. Current testing confirming the data from earlier testing, 4. Independent research showing the strength of laser cut holes compared to punched, and last but not least 5. I took one of the ribs, riveted a strip of aluminum to one of the flanges, and didn’t find any cracking.
On the flip side, the data saying I shouldn’t use these ribs: 1. They are laser cut.

I’ve seen some of the poorly cut parts. You notice. Some of the people in the early YouTube videos definitely noticed before they put rivets into the parts. Vans just told them it’s ok.

Vans won’t be able to give you any data regarding a specific kit. It’s up to the builder to gather that data. Vans can only provide supplemental information, e.g. “are parts with cracked dimples sufficiently strong? Yes or no.” But that supplemental information is only relevant if you actually have cracked dimples. Finding that out is information the builder must collect about their kit. Vans won’t send someone to do that.

I am curious to know how the given information lead you to the position that you need to start over? Did your inspection show you have cracked dimples all over the place?

 

[lr172]

I have 2 QB kits. Both are laser cut. I'm worried about the silence from Van's. Several emails and 11 days later zero responses.

Both my kits have not been touched and are in the inventory stage. I won't continue my build and invest in an airplane with known defects. I also will not Remove and Replace the laser cut parts (possibly causing significant damage).

The testing is lip stick on a pig. Van's at OSH was very clear - NO laser cuts parts going forward - NONE. I bought my kit because there are 10K+ planes that have tested the design over a billion miles. I don't want a one-off airplane, with laser parts that haven't meet the aforementioned test of time.

But to your point - I know this won't be easy for a company Van's size. I also don't know Van's level of exposure. It really depends on how much folks have built out their kits. The QB kits IMHO are the ones that are most impacted and I can't see any other way than replacement. To help them; I would be able to wait a significant amount of time for new QB kits. But I would want written assurances that they would indeed replace the QB kits I have.

Thoughts?

My speculation is that Vans will replace QB assemblies. It is the only thing that seems right, as you bought a single component and not a box of parts to be assembled. In theory, once things slow down, Vans could ship the QB's back to their off shore folks to retrofit with new parts and not loose a ton of $ on the swaps. Clearly this is just speculation, but they do have a reputation to protect.

 

[airguy]

Lots of speculation, and about 39 different theories of "What Vans SHOULD do..."

How about we settle down a notch and wait to find out what Vans WILL do.

And yes before I get that thrown at me I do have "skin in the game"

 

[georgemohr]

Lots of speculation, and about 39 different theories of "What Vans SHOULD do..."

How about we settle down a notch and wait to find out what Vans WILL do.

And yes before I get that thrown at me I do have "skin in the game"

This is great advice.

For those that are drawing a 'no laser cut part' line for your build, this is your choice. However consider that all of the data, engineering and testing shows (so far) that this is an extreme stance and not based in the facts.

What we all experienced here is a QA failure, not an engineering failure. There are many laser cut parts in the wild that are totally airworthy (I'm holding one as we speak) and many that are hot garbage (I have one of those in front of me as well).

I'd encourage people to stand down a bit and see how this plays out before making huge judgements that might have far more negative consequences for your build than a few parts.

-G

 

[Paul Thomas]

Isn't Piper using laser cut parts?

Laser cut parts met the specs, some of the laser cut part that Van's received do not. Let's not throw out babies with the bathwater.

 

[N8DAV8R]

For those that are drawing a 'no laser cut part' line for your build

The classifieds are easy to find and a lot of (us) others would be happy to pick up someones failure and frustration and run with it. Go ahead...use this excuse to punch out!

 

[David Paule]

....For those that are drawing a 'no laser cut part' line for your build, this is your choice. However consider that all of the data, engineering and testing shows (so far) that this is an extreme stance and not based in the facts.

What we all experienced here is a QA failure, not an engineering failure. There are many laser cut parts in the wild that are totally airworthy (I'm holding one as we speak) and many that are hot garbage (I have one of those in front of me as well).

I'd encourage people to stand down a bit and see how this plays out before making huge judgements that might have far more negative consequences for your build than a few parts.

-G

+1 Great comments.

Dave

 

[dforgerson]

Lots of speculation, and about 39 different theories of "What Vans SHOULD do..."

How about we settle down a notch and wait to find out what Vans WILL do.

And yes before I get that thrown at me I do have "skin in the game"

It seems perfectly reasonable to me for people to discuss what they think that Van's SHOULD do about the laser cut parts problem on a thread titled "Factory Info: Parts with Laser Cut Holes and Potential for Cracks". IMO whatever Van's decides that they WILL do about the problem will depend in part on what their customers think that they SHOULD do about the problem. However, I could be wrong. Maybe Van's does not care at all about what their customers think that they SHOULD do about this problem.

 

[bertschb]

I think everyone would agree that in a perfect world, Vans would replace all laser cut parts, quick build assemblies, fully assembled parts, etc free of charge with free white glove delivery and a $1,000 check for pain and suffering.

The reality is Vans is not a large company. Some folks here may think they are entitled to what I described above but the reality is this would bankrupt the company. As much as I want my laser cut parts replaced, I also want Vans to thrive as a company. I think there needs to be some give and take from both sides. As an example, if Vans offers to replace all of my laser cut parts (even if they pass testing), I'd be willing to pay for the shipping.

If Vans had a billion dollar market cap, my expectations would be different.

 

[tenacious9]

Lots of speculation, and about 39 different theories of "What Vans SHOULD do..."

How about we settle down a notch and wait to find out what Vans WILL do.

And yes before I get that thrown at me I do have "skin in the game"

Seems like you might also be the one telling people what they should or shouldn't do? Or did I misunderstand your statement: "How about we".

Many people who just got the parts don't want to invest in beginning a build with substandard parts. And other builders with lots of tasks complete want to hear the all clear and build on.

In my humble opinion - It is perfectly okay to talk here; vent frustration, share knowledge and speculate etc.

 

[dforgerson]

I think everyone would agree that in a perfect world, Vans would replace all laser cut parts, quick build assemblies, fully assembled parts, etc free of charge with free white glove delivery and a $1,000 check for pain and suffering.

The reality is Vans is not a large company. Some folks here may think they are entitled to what I described above but the reality is this would bankrupt the company. As much as I want my laser cut parts replaced, I also want Vans to thrive as a company. I think there needs to be some give and take from both sides. As an example, if Vans offers to replace all of my laser cut parts (even if they pass testing), I'd be willing to pay for the shipping.

If Vans had a billion dollar market cap, my expectations would be different.

In comment #471 I stated:

Van's is monitoring this thread. If you have a proposal for how Van's should handle your specific case, then let's hear it. What do you think would be practical and reasonable for Van's to do in your specific case?

Notice the words "practical" and "reasonable". Perhaps you should read the thread a little more closely before commenting.

 

[bertschb]

If you have a proposal for how Van's should handle your specific case, then let's hear it. What do you think would be practical and reasonable for Van's to do in your specific case?

Notice the words "practical" and "reasonable". Perhaps you should read the thread a little more closely before commenting.

HUH???

Perhaps you should read my post again (a little more closely) as I made a recommendation as to what Vans could do in my specific case.

I'll copy it here again:
"As an example, if Vans offers to replace all of my laser cut parts (even if they pass testing), I'd be willing to pay for the shipping."

 

[dforgerson]

Let’s also remember all the service bulletins for cracks out there. People are flying with much worse cracks than the ones in laser cut dimples. I also know people that decided against tearing their plane apart to install these service bulletins but rather monitor condition and start acting once inspection shows they are affected.

Right now I feel like there is a lot of “perfection getting in the way of good enough”.

Please share with us your data on cracks and which are "good enough" and safe to fly with and which are not. Or should we just take your word for it as an expert in the field?

I’m not saying cracked dimples are great but they can very well be handled.

Please share with us your strategy for handling laser cut parts with cracks in them. After we realize how easy it will be to inspect spars and ribs deep inside of our control surfaces and fuel tanks, we may change our minds.