BlackRV7

BlackRV7

Well Known Member
On the way back from Rough River I stopped at EKX for a quick fuel/lunch turnaround only to return to find this:

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It appears the first hit was this one:

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The impact from the above hit drove the other prop blade thru the Cessna 180's fuselage:

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You can see some of the damage from the prop and the fuselage of the jump plane in these pics, the 180 rode all the way up onto the right fuel tank before rolling back:

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So here go: The prop damaged or destroyed the constant speed prop, engine along with the harness, forward deck, windscreen, right fuel tank, firewall, baffling, possibly the right engine mount weldment.



The windscreen is the front of a custom color canopy I had Van's supplier form. Chances of matching the color of the slider, as it was open and appears undamaged, are slim at best.

The firewall took a good hit there on the passenger side. I want it replaced.

Fuel tank on passenger side I want replaced.

Paint, since the cowl has to be painted, along with the forward deck, forward fuselage, fuel tank, I want it blended in well. I want the total fuselage repainted along with the right wing. Issues with that?

As you can tell I'm ticked and will be shortly hitting a bottle of Jose Cuervo Especial in a big way. The owner of the jump school said he did not have a copy of his insurance handy and needed to get back to his "business" and said, "accidents happen". My oldest son, the third year MD student, said I should have cold cocked him on the spot. In hind sight I would have felt much better. He also told me later on he "thought" he only had hull on the 1955 180 but his wife would be pi$$ed if he called her and asked....I told him I was getting more pi$$ed every time he opened his mouth. The pilot is a commercially rated pharmacist whom was truly as sorry as could be. He carries 1 mil in liability along with hull on his personal beautiful 170. I don't have a problem with him, accidents happen but the owner of the company needs a boot put up his backside.

I have liability and hull insurance so something is going to happen. However, I have some more questions:


1. Would the liability side of the pilots insurance be the primary, if at all?

2. Is this an incident or accident?

3. Get FAA involved?

Now here is the biggie. I want my airplane back. I put my heart and soul into building Black Magic just how I wanted my final airplane to be. I've had RC's, couple ultralights, couple Cessnas, my Bonanza that I loved, but I got no better thrill out of flying anything than this 7 that my sons and I built. She was to be my last airplane. I looked at the rivets on the wing every time I flew her, I want her back.......I need to fix a drink............... How much say do I have in getting her fixed, who can fix her if I want someone else to do the repair, can I get the estimate check and fix her myself, can I pick my own qualified person to estimate, who is THE BEST to fix her.

Tough day, any ideas are appreciated.
 
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I've read all your latest postings. Test flights and getting past the 40 hrs. I think I'll have a drink too....

L.Adamson
 
Man that sucks big time... really sorry to see this happen to a brand new bird.

I only wanted to comment on engine part -- you don't want no stinkin' inspections and rebuilts.. You send them Mahlon's address so they know where to send a check for a brand new TMX...
 
I am so sorry

I wish you all the best. I can't tell you how bad I feel. With your post and the "jack" thread, showing a retract Falco on the ground in a hanger with two wing jacks through the wing, I think I'll have bad dreams. All the best.

FIX IT. It is repairable.

All you can do now is get her home and take it apart. The best you can hope for is replace parts at production joints and splices if possible.

I have a background in engineering, aerospace structure. If you want to float any repairs, patches, splices or ideas by me, let me know, email me direct.
 
BlackRV7 said:
1. Would the liability side of the pilots insurance be the primary, if at all?

2. Is this an incident or accident?

3. Get FAA involved?
....
Tough day, any ideas are appreciated.
Click to expand...
Well, ****, that's .... I'm not sure what I'd say (or can say on the forum ;) )

#1 - Yes, his liability should cover it - (s)he is clearly at fault.

#2 - Accident. The NTSB's definition is: "An accident is defined as 'an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious injury, or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage". I would say that the aircraft (plural) recieved substantial damage.

#3 - Yes. I think the pilot of Cessna needs to file a NTSB 6120; see 49 CFR 830.

So sorry to hear about this - I really enjoyed reading your reports about flight test.

You and the airplane will fly again.

TODR
 
Oh My

Dana,

I am so sorry to see this...I can't imagine how i would feel. The only solace is perhaps that you and one of your family wer'nt in the bird to get badly hurt or worse.

Airplanes can be rebuilt and so will this one I'm sure.

The cold hard fact of the matter however is what is the fair market value for your airplane..I fully tricked out IFR airplane could easily be $120k and therefore there is a lot of scope for a rebuild.

I'm not sure how the insurance companies work but my guess would be that if the estimated damage is above a certain percentage (like say 60%) of the value of the airplane they may just cut you a check.

How they put a number on that check I don't know.

But I agree with you in that at the very least the engine has to go back to Mattituck for a complete strip and I would expect them to be using much of that engine...But they will do it right, that I think you can be sure of.

Have one for me!

Frank
 
It's ugly, but it's repairable.

As far as the engine/prop - my vote is NEW prop, and absolutely tear down the engine, at a minimum. You're going to end up with a check to take care of it in any case, why go halfway? If it was a new certified Mooney that took that kind of prop strike, do you think for a second they would say it didn't need to be torn down?
 
Dana,
I just cannot find the words that begin to express the sorrow and anger that I felt when I saw your pictures and details of what happened.

I cannot imagine how you must feel right now. Don't know if there is enough Jose Cuervo to take care of this.......

Radomir is right. You need to hold out for a comparable engine and prop replacement. The attitude of the guy that owned the plane is absolutely unbelievable.

Good luck on the repairs and let us know how it is going.
 
This is sad

Yes it is good that no one was hurt but you are now without a plane. Hopefully you can get payment to hire enough help to get it going again this year.

Using this link: http://tinyurl.com/5kdvjx

Would the last guy...Jim...be the one you talked to?

And Gerry the pilot?

That is an ex-Greene County 180. I learned to skydive in those many years ago. Different N number but the same type plane.
 
Wow, that is a tough one. Best of luck with the insurance company.

What exactly did the pilot say caused him to taxi into you?
 
dana,
been following your progress, sorry to see your plane all banged up..i feel for you man..hang in there.
 
So sorry to see this Dana.


That has got to be a homebuilder's worst nightmare. After putting years of yourself into a project only to have it damaged by no fault of your own.

I hope that you gain satisfaction financially from the insurance companies involved and that you get Black Magic in the air as soon as possible.

Best regards
 
All I can say is that fixing it will be a trivial compared to the task of building it. Take a deep breath, a few days and some beer. You'll get her back in the air for sure.
 
This makes me sick at my stomach. I can't believe this happened just after finishing the plane.

You have no obligation to notify the FAA or NTSB.

Most insurance policies will pay up to 70% of your hull value for repair of your plane. After that they can at their discretion pay you your hull value and take the plane(your insurance company) I would say that the other guys insurance needs to pay up but let your insurance company deal with them.

Just notify your agent and start getting an estimate together for the repair, including fair market value for your time. Dont even screw around with the engine tell them you want a new one.

I feel for you and know exactly what you are going through and about to go through.
 
Tear down

Sorry to see that Dana... I guess he wasn't looking... glad you are OK...

As far as an engine tear down goes.... This is the Lycoming definition of a prop strike... and it certainly fits your situation.

A propeller strike is defined as follows:
A. Any incident, whether or not the engine is operating, that requires repair to the propeller other than minor dressing of the blades.
B. Any incident during engine operation in which the propeller impacts a solid object which causes a drop in RPM and also requires structural repair of the propeller (incidents requiring only paint touch up are not included). This is not restricted to propeller strikes against the ground, and although the propeller may continue to rotate, damage to the engine may result, possibly progressing to engine failure.
C. A sudden RPM drop while impacting water, tall grass, or similar non-solid medium, where propeller structural damage is not normally incurred.
The above definitions encompass any propeller strike occurring at taxi speeds, including touch-and-go operations involving propeller tip ground contact. In addition, they also include situations where an aircraft is stationary and the landing gear collapses causing one or more blades to be substantially bent, or where a hangar door (or other object) strikes the propeller blade. These cases should be handled as sudden engine stoppage because of potentially severe side loading on the crankshaft flange, front bearing and seal.

It's in their SB 533 which is here...

http://www.lycoming.com/support/publications/service-bulletins/pdfs/SB533A.pdf

I would accept no less, and since it's based on Lycoming's own recommendations, the insurance company should go for it.

Good luck with the rest... gil A
 
RE:put expletive deleted here......

Dana

Man I feel your pain.............I was very excited as you moved to the airport, put the Magic machine together, and had those first flights.......but this is just #$^&**&^^%$%$%^^*(()*^%$$........expletives ..............

I am rooting for you and the Magic machine to rise again.......please keep us informed of all the stuff.....insurance/legal/build process......

Isn't it interesting how an innocent stop for gas can change your life in a big way.......life sure does come at ya fast.

My best to you Dana.............

Frank @ 1L8..... RV7A ......
 
Plane Crash

Happy to hear every one is fine. Now is the time to be a hard axx. Every thing must be fixed and paid for by his Insurance Co. They must fix every thing with parts and labor just like it was a new Bonanza. Not may be but they must and with in a reasonable time! You may need an attorney if thier insurance does't aggree to this imediately. Don't drink too much because it does't help!
 
Dana,

That just plane s#cks! No other way to put it!

Be careful with the insurance company. Depending on what you set your hull value, they could write you a check and take the plane. Say you insured it for $80K and it is really worth $110, they could take the plane and sell off the parts. :( You don?t have to take their first offer.

As for who does the repairs, one local -9A builder had a minor issue and his insurance company paid him $10/hr to fix it himself. You may be the person who fixes it, if you have the time and heart to take on this task.

A few other things to keep in mind:
1. His insurance company should cover you for any expenses you have. Getting home, hotel, transporting the plane, etc. in addition to what it will take to fix the plane.
2. Your plane now has "damage history" and they should pay you for that depreciation.
3. His insurance company should also cover the loss of use of your plane.

Anything less and you are just being taken advantage of.

Remember, his insurance company is in the business of not paying out money. Don't sign anything or agree to anything until you get a chance to look it all over and think about it. Heck, I would contact an attorney who deals in such things ASAP and work through them. It will save you a lot of money in the end.

Again, sorry to hear about this!
 
Very Sad

:mad:I am so sorry - just glad that no one was hurt or worse. Really sorry.

I have absolutely no experience or background about what's ahead for you so I can't authoritatively advise you - and won't - but here are my concerns;
a. How fast was the Cessna traveling when it hit your aircraft?
b. Was there any king of 'twisting or torquing motion' involved - looks like there was.
c. Was your aircraft tied down - increasing the amount and severity of damage.

I think that you should be very wary of any try by an insurance company to quickly pay you off - take your time and make sure that you have considered every possible type of damage that could have been done. And how about loss of your airplane during the time that it is un-airworthy - is that compensatable? Heck, before the accident you had a flying aircraft and every right to think that it would last until you sell it.

If you elect to repair your aircraft, then consider how long it might take. You need to have your aircraft put back together in the exact shape that it was before the accident. Only you are qualified (as I see it) to oversee/supervise/perform (should be your choice), the work.

I would take nothing for granted - I'd examine critical parts like the places where the wings, stabilizers, engine mount, landing gears, etc. mount. I would want a complete engine tear down and appropriate parts replacement. And a 'new' propeller.

Lastly, is it possible that someone at Vans could or would give you some advice. Maybe they can't due to legal matters but I would give them a chance to advise you on any questions that you might have. Best regards, Ed.
 
Ouch! Man, that hurts all the way to here. Having not experienced 1/10,000 of the blood, sweat, and tears you have invested in this project, I can't begin to comprehend your anguish.

However, one thing I am sure of is that the seeds of a silver lining are sown within nearly every tragedy. My hope is that the results of this incident will be to the mutual satisfaction of all involved, and that each will find the silver lining appropriate to their situation. :)

Peace, my friend.

Joe
 
Dana,
So sorry to see this happen to your dream machine.
Just a few days ago I was reading about you looking for a weekend mission.

I would have totally lost it coming out & seeing this.
Best of luck with you getting back flying.
 
You definitely need a teardown, and a new prop. His insurance should cover it, fill out a NASA form (he should, you probably should, why not?)

Make sure whoever you get to repair it (if you don't yourself) is good at metalwork. I've seen repairs on RV's that were WAY worse than the rest of the construction.
 
RVs are insured at the "Agreed Value" which is any number "Agreed" on by the insurance Co and the policy holder. If you look on Vans website and use the cost calculator it's obvious many RVs end up being sold and insured for equal to or less than the cost to build EXCLUDING LABOR. Think a moment on how much skilled shop work costs. Custom repair work on a custom airplane can quickly total the aircraft when the labor costs are added.
 
Dana,

I was, like others, absolutely heartsick to see what happened. So glad you guys are OK!

Already some great advice and support. While I definitely concur with the recommendation to act fast with respect to contacting insurance, and perhaps an attorney if the other side (or insurance) plays games...just one word of caution...don't make any big decisions in the heat of things. As a buddy once said (after a different type of, but very trying occurrence), "this won't be resolved quickly, so settle in and fight the good, well-prepared fight". It sort of took the immediate and intense self-pressure to have it done "right now", and let me work steadily and purposefully to get it done "right". That's certainly what the other party should do in this case...make it right!

And man, you sure showed incredible restraint in the face of someone who obviously doesn't posess empathy, nor gets what an airplane means to a builder and his sons.

Heart goes out to you bro! Very best of luck!

Bob Mills
 
Dana

Having watched my aeroplane get hit by an excavator a few months ago I know exactly how it feels. Fortunately I was lucky and the damage was light. But when you've worked so hard on a project and someone else damages it it's heart breaking.
Take time and get a more than one quote for the repair.


Peter
 
:( I can't imagine the anguish you're suffuering. Will you trust her when she's repaired? I'd look to getting a new quick build fuselage and transplanting the undamaged parts.

Good luck. May she get well soon!
 
It's going to be a lot of work

Sorry to hear about your lose, it's never easy to look at new airplane that just had an accident-especially a beautiful RV. Having been around RV's for a long time, I've been involved with rebuilding some wrecked RV's. Looking at your picks, it looked like there was considerable damage to the right side of your firewall, engine/cowling/prop and forward longeron. We replaced the whole front section of a RV-3 once that went through a fence on landing. It was a lot of work rebuilding the front of the airplane. A jig had to be made and lined up to the tail cone. We had to get the tailcone installed on it and then splice in the longerons to the existing tailcone. It's a lot of rivets and bolts for the splice section-not to mention that's it ugly to look at. Then it was basically back to the slow build stage of assembling the whole front end. The RV-7 would be easier since it's prepunched but it is still going to take a new firewall, side panel-which goes all the way back to the baggage compartment, a new longeron (if that one is bent), new front motor mount bracket, new boot cowling and so on. I guess what I'm getting at is it might be better to get a new quickbuild fuselage and fit your parts to that instead of trying to get a new front end built for your plane and retro fit. Not trying to be funny here, but you might get a repeat offender discount too for the new fuselage. Hey 3% is better than none. I would also encourage you to even seek legal counsel to make you get top dollar for your aircraft and replacement labor costs. They have to restore you to whole condition but they also like to depreciate things too. I knew a guy that had a airplane land into the side of his house/garage. The aviation insurance company came out and started giving him a quote for the repair cost to replace the whole side of his house and replace his belongings that he had in his cabinets on that wall that got wiped out. They nickled everything down to pennies on the dollar for his belongings saying that they had to be depreciated because he used them. Once he got a lawyer and they found out about it, they just told him to go out and buy all new stuff and send them the bill. Remember, they are in the business of keeping their money in their pockets.
 
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Dana,

I am shocked by those pics. Unbelievable! But.....Anything can be repaired. Lots of good advice above for how to deal with the insurance.

Just tell your insurance about it and they will go after any others that exist. Ultimately the pilot or his insurance will be the one footing the bill due to the subrogation law that was passed a many years ago.

No matter who is footing the bill, be cautious about their offers to settle. Most likely the first few offers will be low! This was a brand new airplane worth well over six figures and they need to treat it as such!
 
Been there, done that. Get organized. Start a seperate "Damage Repair Note Book" for parts, items repaired, ect. Organize a parts list and order the longest leadtime items right away so you are not waiting for parts as long.

I'm really sorry. All you can do is make this a part of the building process. Your skills will make the repairs fast & safe. Good Luck!
 
Plane Damage

Dana
Some straight skinny for you-
The other pilot is at fault!
The other pilot's insur company will have to pay every thing.
The insur company will try to get your baby for next to nothing.
If an A&P gets 100 zillion an hour for repair so do you or you can have him or her do it.
Repair only with new parts.
A loaner aircraft with simular performance must be provided but you will have to pay for the gas.
Painted areas must be stipped down to the bare aluminum primed and repainted.
So after wearing out the loaner you can get your baby back!
 
So sorry

So very, very ,very sorry to read about your situation. What a shame. I can't (or don't want to) believe what happened. My only advise would be get an aviation attorney before you settle with the insurance company or before you sign anything. Protect yourself legally. :( :( :(
 
So sorry

Knowing how bad this makes ME feel, I can only imagine how you feel. True bummer.

I too vote QB fuselage and having a lawyer. And while you want and deserve to be back in the air ASAP, don't do anything so quickly as to hurt your eventual recovery. Best of luck in everything.

I am close and can lend a hand. If you need someone to drill out rivets, pull wing bolts or something like that, LET ALL OF US KNOW! A day out of my life to speed your return to the air would be a good day.

Bob Kelly
 
leeschaumberg said:
Dana
Some straight skinny for you-
The other pilot is at fault!
The other pilot's insur company will have to pay every thing.
The insur company will try to get your baby for next to nothing.
If an A&P gets 100 zillion an hour for repair so do you or you can have him or her do it.
Repair only with new parts.
A loaner aircraft with simular performance must be provided but you will have to pay for the gas.
Painted areas must be stipped down to the bare aluminum primed and repainted.
So after wearing out the loaner you can get your baby back!
Click to expand...

Very sorry to hear this Dana. Alcohol works wonders in situations like these.

I have a friend that went through a very similar thing with his HR2. An errant Bonanza driver taxiied right into him.

Rule #1: don't take ANY s*** from the insurance company, whether its yours or his. The adjuster is in the mix to minimize losses, so don't let them tell you what to do. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Dealing with the insurance companies will be the most frustrating part of this ordeal.

I'll echo that all of the above is true, you can get a loaner, and its 100% his fault.
 
Insurance battles are not easy. Carol Morris and Bob Kennedy are two people who had to fight the insurance company to get the proper outcome. The Insurance company will give their "ultimatum" of what they think is a proper repair and reimbursement. Tell them that's not good enough, get help from a lawyer and they magically change their mind. Carol Morris was able to get the full amount her airplane was insured for and the plane totalled, when initially the insurance said they were going to use guys in Colorado who were going to do a patch job for much less. Bob Kennedy got the builder to put in a bid for the repair of his RV-6 and his choice was used even after a cheaper bid came in. Fight the insurance company to repair the airplane to its original beauty. Don't accept patches on the plane. Put a "healthy" complete bid in yourself since you're the builder and pay yourself to repair the airplane. Email me if you questions about it.
 
Dana,

If I can be of any help please don't hesitate to ask. You might be able to use some of your posts here to help shore up your argument that these repairs with be more lengthy and costly than the insurance company might lead on.

Also, make sure to let me know who the carriers involved are. I think it's safe to assume that a LOT of RVators are watching their actions (and it goes without saying that the outcome will be discussed at length here).

Sorry again so very much,

Doug
 
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Bad Day for Black Magic

Dana,

You may be in a minor state of shock and that's no surprise, it was a very bad day. All that effort to produce a very nice airplane and it is totally screwed up.

The key with regard to insurance is the amount the hull was insured for. They will not pay more than that amount and if the repair bill comes to within 75% of that value they may total it and you loose the airplane. They sell off the parts and recoup as much cash as possible.

I've been there and done that. The only way I could keep the airplane was to figure my labor at $15/hour to repair the wreck. If the repair estimate went in at shop rates the airplane would have been totaled. Labor is what really determines which way it will go. It is your option - at least it was for me with AVEMCO. They had me submit the repair bill and did not question any part of it. The only thing original today are the wings (they did not get a scratch), everything else was replaced including the engine.

Standby to copy all your documents. The first thing they do is check to see if they have to pay at all as per the conditions of the policy. The only thing I did not have to submit was a marriage certificate.
 
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Dana,

Those pictures made my stomach instantly knot up. Truly made me feel sick. As with most of us RV-guyz, words cannot express how sorry I am. Any $%^&** that shrugs it off with "Accidents happen" ought to be executed at dawn. Call me. I'll help.
 
DeltaRomeo said:
Dana,



Also, make sure to let me know who the carriers involved are. I think it's safe to assume that a LOT of RVators are watching their actions (and it goes without saying that the outcome will be discussed at length here).

Sorry again so very much,

Doug
Click to expand...

The carriers are as follows: Mine Travers Aviation Insurance Hull/Liability thru AIG

Pilot: Avemco 1 mil liability/hull on his own 170

Jump School Skydive Kentucky, LLC Jim Moore Owner, U.S. Specialty Insurance, Craig Walker Claims rep.


Little busy but thanks for all the support and information. I'll have some more pics and questions later this evening.
 
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bad crunch on the RV

I slid off an icy runway in 2003 and crunched my RV-6A . I called the FAA and explained what happened. They asked, was anyone injured? Did I want to file an accident form? "NO, NO", I replied with a Mayday tone.
The insurance co said if it is not required, Great. The insurance co. requested two estimates. I had two shops look 'carefully' and estimate 'generously'. One estimate was $14,500., the other was $13,500. Labor was $7,500. parts about $6,500.
The insurance co (subtracted $200. deductable) and sent me a check for $13,300. I did the repair/replace/repaint, and the 6A has a smily face, and so do I, Again...
The Insurance co was pleasant and helpful as was the FAA.--I know an FAA guy that has an RV... They know we are a Great team.
 
Sad day for sure. It will get better.

It doesn't matter if the guy is a jerk or a nice guy. Although if he was nice it makes it seem easier to swallow. your insurance should be the one dealing with him. Also DOCUMENT everything. get a tablet and write down everything, time date, what was said between parties. In court it matters not who is right or wrong...it matters who has the documentation.

since the guy already is being a weazel, get a jump on it now. Got AOPA?, contact their Legal.

good luck. If you need some pieces/parts to speed up the process, let us know, maybe we can help. I know mine won't be flying for a year or more.
 
My thoughts are with you on this tragic event. Hopefully everything works out. As hard as it may be, stay positive. You have a family here that is pulling for you.
 
Ouch!!

Just sat down to cruise the news and this heart wrenching story pops up. Only those of us who build and fly can know the grief you are experiencing. I'm not sure I'd have it in me to do it right now...I'd have to wait awhile to gear up the psyche for the repair job.

All the Best,

Jack Dekkinga
N811AK:mad:
 
So Sorry....

Hey Dana, I know I can't help you much from over here, but I'm very sorry for you. This is really sad. I don't know what I'd have done in this situation but it would not have been very civilized. All the best and get her flying again.
 
Dana--

I can't add any advice, but I will add my condolences. And say that I respect you a TON for keeping your cool...that must have been a monumental task! I know I would not have been able to do it.

Best of luck getting this sorted out and getting back in the air-

Joe
 
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What happened?

Dana,

Can you tell us a bit about how this happened? I'm very sorry to see the damage to your beautiful airplane, and I'm glad nobody was hurt.

Regards,
Martin
 
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