Coaching, please, on RV vs. RANS

I hope it's OK to request info on this topic without stirring up things too much.

As I look at the fluid, worrisome and immature LSA marketplace - my focus right now - it seems to me the two mfgrs. mentioned above are both credible, experienced builders in the U.S. market who build 'conventional' (meaning: stressed skin, metal & rivet) aircraft and that also look like what I want to own & fly. And generally, I have to believe many a RV kit buyer/builder/owner looked at the RANS product line before choosing a RV.

Given that, this forum seems like an excellent place to ask what differentiates one manufacturer from the other, in your opinion? (In my case, I'm looking at the S-19 kit from RANS & the RV-12 kit from Vans, but I hope folks don't restrict themselves to commenting on just those two designs).

Tho' I don't mean to close off other comments, here are the two fundamental questions I would welcome responses to:
-- What led you to choose to BUILD a RV kit (to the extent your choice was a function of the kit package itself) rather than a RANS kit?
-- To the extent both manufacturers offered you a plane that met your needs, what led you to choose to FLY a RV a/c vs. an RANS a/c?

There are undoubtedly many A's to my two Q's. I'd welcome them all.

Many thanks,

Jack

Jack, welcome to the forum. With the exception of the 12, the RVs are of a completely different mission (IMO) than the Rans. The 12 is the only LSA that Vans makes. Rans is a good outfit - my hangar mate has and S-7, which is very nice. I don't think you could go wrong with either company in terms of support etc. I'm sure that some others who have been closer to your situation will post opinions that may give more details on why they chose RV over Rans and the factors in that decision.

Cheers,
greg

Welcome to VAF!!!!

Jack, a second big welcome to you.

Greg has hit the target with his input------other than the 12, there is not a lot of comparison that is valid between the two companies.

For instance, I built a RV 10----needed 4 seats.

Pretty sure you will get lots of opinions/info.

Enjoy!!

I built a Rans S-6ES, then a Vans RV-7. My hangar mate was Rans dealer/Builder assist and had built a RV-4 and owned a factory S-19 while building another S-19. So here's my 2 cents:
1. Both good quality products
2. Both companies seem to give real life performance numbers.
3. Rans construction manual on the S-6 was well laid out & easier to follow then my Vans RV-7
4. Watching the S-19 build go together it looked more difficult than the RV. Comment from hangarmate, S-19 would be difficult by first timer.
5. The factory S-19 was a very nice aircraft, even if it was a touch heavy.

PM me if you want more

A friend at the airport has been building an S-19 for the last couple of years and I've been very interested in how its gone together. It looks to be a FAR easier project than my RV-6A, but as others have said it is designed for a different mission.

There are several things I really like about the S-19 design. *REAL* seats, that are adjustable fore and aft without having to pull a hinge pin. Nice interior standard. Excellent visibility (but I think most LSAs have this). Clean lines; I think it looks less frumpy than the RV12. Good drawings / plans.

There are also a couple of things I don't care for on the design. The fuel tanks look somewhat hinky, and the stock installation is just begging to have the tank collect water if left outside in the rain. The wings seem overly big resulting in a quite low wing loading (I expect this is also a result of being an LSA). The wingtip looks like something of an afterthought. Blind rivets, which every knows are an abomination unto the Lord (but most LSAs have these as well).

I'll be excited to see him fly it, and I have asked a bunch of times for a ride when it's done. I doubt you could go wrong either way.

Welcome! This is an interesting question. I just started a high school group building a 12, and have built my own 9A, so my experience lies with Van's. I think you have hit the two top contenders. There is one thing that no one else can match, and that is this website. Even if the aircraft were equal, having this resource is a tremendous advantage. I actually like the looks of the Rans, and do like the seats. Weight is about the only disadvantage I know of. Ease of construction is said to be better with the 12, but I have no experience.

Bob

I think it comes down to the mission. My next build will probably be an S-7. I have a buddy who has built an S-6 and the midwing aerobatic model (12?). I really like them. It seemed to be more of an aircraft assembly than a "build". I like the simplicity of them....the "grassroots flying" feeling I get. I like the Rotax powerplant that sips autogas. You won't be disappointed with either company. I'm sure you've been to ransclan.com Mark is a good friend of mine. Incidentally, after his S-6 maiden this spring....he's starting on an RV-7A.

I've really grown to love the building process of my slow build 7 though!

I'm not building a -12 but I would have to say Van's leave very little to complain about. Their customer service is top notch and each new product seems to be a leap and a bound better as a kit.

IMO it would be rotten luck to have them as your competition...

Both are good...

I closely watched the development of both - having planned on building an LSA. I've also test flown both - and can honestly say you'd be happy flying either the RV-12 or S-19. They are light on the controls and very sporty feeling.

The S-19 is a prettier bird and has a much more finished appearance. She has many nice features, such as the mentioned seats. However, as a result... she is a bit heavy. If you are building and must stick to LSA 1320 GW, this may be a problem. The S-19's are weighing in around 850 which doesn't leave much fuel if you have two full sized adults. If you plan on flying with a smaller female type... this may not be a problem. If you don't need to stick to LSA GW, the S-19 is designed for a GW of 1475. Conversely, the RV-12 is 100 lb. lighter - with empty weights coming in around 725/750.

If you want an interesting option - Jabiru has done a FWF for the S-19 which provides some performance enhancements.

I'd have to give a slight edge to the RV-12 when it comes to construction. You'd also have to evaluate if removable wings are of any value to you. As others have advised - you can't go wrong with either company.

I like both aircraft. They are nice birds. My problem is they aren't exciting! My real fantasy is a Tandem low-wing LSA. What I really want is an RV-4 styled LSA aircraft powered by either the Jab or the new O-233.

Don't know if any of this helps!

DJ

DJ,
Check out this site. www.mysky.aero
Eric

Having flown the RV12 with Van, I found it a delight to fly.

Pretty hard to go past one!

Are you going to build it here in Brisbane? PM me if you want to see some RV's and how to build them. we have some good RV Guru's around here!

DB

Very helpful comments so far...and also thoughtful ones. Keep 'em coming, please.

DB, most likely building in the USA. But we'll be back in Brissie early February and I am hoping to plug into the local aviation scene then. I'll PM you for some coaching on how to accomplish that - all we know about Oz has to do with sailing! - once we return.

I've posted this same request on the RANSCLAN forum - see http://www.ransclan.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1791 if interested - and those comments also strike me as balanced and thoughtful.

Summing it all up so far, these seem to be the tentative take-aways from the postings:
-- S-19 is a bit more like a 'real' airplane, the sliding canopy (like our old AA-5) is a plus, fit out of the -19 is nicer, and both fuel location and baggage area add'l "pro's" for the S-19
-- this forum & the VAF community, and also Vans' long-term familiarity with metal fabrication favor the -12...and she will be lighter by perhaps 100#
-- No consensus emerging (yet) on ease of build, since the comments vary on this; however, if Vans offers a QB kit in the future, that is likely to make a significant difference in build time
-- Performance - the 'fun to fly' factor - comparable. Suitability for our needs - cross country 'legs' plus currency flying - comparable.
-- and finally, there's no 'bad' choice between these two mfgrs and their aircraft. I find much in the LSA marketplace right now to be quite troubling (from a product maturity and safety standpoint). It's easy to overlook the value inherent in these two designs, from what I can tell so far, when just looking at LSA's on the ramp.

Again, keep 'em coming and many thanks,

Jack

Engine Choice

I have helped build the S-19 with a friend and appreciated that the Jabiru 3300 was available as an option for engine. I am an old guy that just can't get comfortable with the Rotax (hold the flames please) (gear reduction, liquid cooling plumbing) and the Jabiru offers a simple FWF install that is more traditional.

But to mirror the consensus here either plane would be great and be fun to build and fly.

Gary Specketer

RV vrs RANS Cost Comparison...

One item not factored is so far is cost. Just so happens I've been doing some pricing of LSA's and here is what it looks like comparing these two airplanes.
(This is going EAB to keep it apples to apples.)

The S-19 price sheet indicates it will cost $50,050.

The RV-12 comes in at $48,750.

(no avionics with either - both with the 912 ULS and prop)

The RV-12 engine package appears a bit high but it includes the prop and about 600 other parts forward of the firewall. It is complete down to cotter pins and washers. Don't know how complete the RANS engine kit is, the prop is separate for sure and no mention of the mount.

On the other end of the spectrum - the Fisher Dakota Hawk is $14,900 plus engine and avionics. There are lots of choices out there.

Good of you to bring us back to reality for a moment, David. <s>

And David's post brings up an interesting point: In one of the (vast multitude of) Vans kit comments, the claim is made that a Vans kit includes everything (as in *everything*) needed. Is that true? I get the opposite impression when reading some of your on-line build logs, where advice is given about managing orders of parts and pieces, minimizing shipping costs and so forth.

I don't mean to dismiss a few thousand dollars as 'insignificant' but David's comparative costs strikes me as suggesting neither choice would be driven primarily by cost.

Jack

Cost savings

Don't forget that being in Oz you will save lots of $$ on shipping the engine if you select the Jabiru

Gary Specketer

Jack Tyler said:

Good of you to bring us back to reality for a moment, David. <s>

I get the opposite impression when reading some of your on-line build logs, where advice is given about managing orders of parts and pieces, minimizing shipping costs and so forth.

Click to expand...

Like the other kits that are available, Vans offers the RV-12 in subkits. Wings, Fuselage, etc. What you are seeing is probably people referring to those kits being shipped out individually, as opposed to ordering the entire thing and shipping it at once.

Go with Van's

I have flown and built some of the Ran's aircraft and I have built and flown many Van's aircraft.

Handling Van's
Safety Van's

In a simplified view, Van's is a real airplane de-rated for the LSA market
Rans is a inflated ultra light

Noel Simmons said:

In a simplified view, Van's is a real airplane de-rated for the LSA market
Rans is a inflated ultra light

Click to expand...

I might agree with that for a S-6 / Coyote / etc. but do you think the same observation applies to the S-19?

No Way...

...is the Rans S-19 an "inflated ultralight." We built an S-19 last year and are now building an RV-12. The S-19 went together very much like a Van's kit, and in fact is built much heavier than the RV-12. (hence the higher empty weight and higher max gross if you don't need LSA.)

If you want a good comparison, one of our techs is a very experienced RV-6 & -7 builder, now working on the -12. He spent a lot of time building and test flying the S-19 project and would love to talk with you: call Jabiru USA, 931-680-2800, ask for Mark. Or PM me and I'll send you his email address.

As for quick build? Two guys had the -12 tail feathers done in a work week. Doesn't get much quicker than that!!

I also looked at both models when looking into LSA. It's true, its hard to beat Van's. No matter the design of aircraft or mission they just seem to do it right. Some of the below are real nits...

Having said that. I liked the looks of the S19 cowl better, I liked the idea of the fuel tanks being in the wings between the spars instead of in the cabin area and I like having the optional engine setups. I liked the design of the interior components much better than the 12 (seats and interior accessory panels, etc.). More baggage space but in LSA config with the extra weight you might have problems using it.

On the RV-12 side, who can argue with having every part supplied and knowing the total cost? There doesn't appear to be any major guesswork necessary for putting together anything. I loved the video's of Ken slamming it around the skies and watching how it performed. More than any other model it seems the design is evolving and not static. 100 pounds lighter is huge in the LSA space (especially considering my...ahhh...space...). I really like the idea of how the the 12 is licensed as ELSA with only 5 hours of fly-off and multiple people can legally work on it (assuming they've all taken the classes), etc. At the same time it can be licensed as an experimental. The best of both worlds are available for which ever way you want to go. I'd love to see a Classic Aero interior option on it (after the Skyview, GPS upgrade)...

Its a tough but good choice either way!

Bob