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  #11  
Old 02-08-2010, 11:22 AM
Flying Scotsman Flying Scotsman is offline
 
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Anybody got an answer yet? Seems odd that there wouldn't be any documentation of the combination that Van's itself sells... ?
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  #12  
Old 02-08-2010, 12:00 PM
shuttle's Avatar
shuttle shuttle is offline
 
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Default They need to create then approve a document

Hi Steve,

When you said "I think I've seen the letter you're talking about, which specifically references the electronic ignition" I didn't say anything, but you really cannot have done. No generic Lycoming -M1B/7497 letter exists. There have been documents relating to Hartzell props on Superior engines but they are deemed different to Lycomings and testing (sponsored by whom I don't know) was done on the Superior/7496/EI combination.

I have chased this up with Les for the best part of a year now and Les was finally able to get a letter specifically addressing my a/c past the Vibration Test Engineers. As Les said, no certification testing has been done on the -M1B and 7497 combo because it is not a certified combination. -M1A/7497/Fixed Timing LASAR (used on the Diamond DA-40) has been tested, which I guess was the basis for approving my letter.

I agree with you that it is peculiar that Van's & Hartzell should offer a package with no formal public documentation to back it up. And I do believe that Les thinks the same. Les was very helpful for me and I feel sure he will do all he can to press for an improvement in the matter.

Hang in there. The more people ask for this documentation the greater the chances of it getting published.
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Steve Hutt
West Sussex, UK
RV-7 G-HUTY (not flying yet)
( Tip-UP / TMX-IO-360-M1B / Hartzell 7497-2 / 1x LSE PLASMA III / Dual AF4500's / AF-Pilot AP / 695 )

Last edited by shuttle : 02-08-2010 at 12:03 PM.
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  #13  
Old 02-08-2010, 02:21 PM
Flying Scotsman Flying Scotsman is offline
 
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You're right...the one I saw was for the Superior. See this thread:

http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...ad.php?t=21362

So does this mean that everyone flying around with the Lycoming IO (or XIO)-360-M1B and the Hartzell prop that they got from Van's (as a combo) is missing some important analysis/paperwork from Hartzell that they should have?

I guess, as I understand it, since there's no certified plane with this combination, a DAR should require a 40 hour Phase I test program, right? Is my understanding of this correct?

I don't care about that so much...what I want to know is is there some region of operations that I should avoid, in order to take care of my engine and prop!

I'm a bit disconcerted to find that there is no such documentation from any company involved here (yet).
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  #14  
Old 02-08-2010, 02:55 PM
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Steve,

The earlier 7496 prop had RPM avoid bands/Operating restrictions on Lycomings. I originally ordered a 7496 but while waiting for delivery of the prop to Van's I spoke to Hartzell a number of times to get a clear understanding of the restrictions. One of the people I spoke to was Les Doud. I was told by Les (and several others at Hartzell) that I should not buy the 7496 as the new 7497 was a better option, with no restrictions.

This advice left me in a tricky situation. At that time Van's was selling the 7497 for use with the 200HP 360's but still selling the 7496 for the 180HP engines. I figured that Hartzell were the ones to trust on props. I was after all talking to Les - the guy that designed the prop.

So I took a bit of a leap of faith, going against both Van's then recommendation and also the UK LAA (UK authority for homebuilts) approved engine/prop list and changed my order to the 7497. It's never nice being the first one to do something!!

Someone else will need to advise you on your Phase 1 testing - being in the UK, I know nothing about your US Experimental rules.

As I said, there are no operating restrictions on the -M1B/7497 with EI or with two mags. I'm pretty sure that Les has stated this in a post on VAF. He has pushed out a table listing all the engine/Hartzell prop combos and their operating parameters. Do a VAF search for all of Les' posts. The 7497 was designed specifically to address the restrictions on the 7496. The 7497 design was based on the 7496 but is a little bit thicker (at the root I think) and weighs about 1lb more. Les can explain.

I trust Hartzell and the prop but I share your concern, which is why I chased for my letter so that I could atleast prove the prop/engine combo status to the UK LAA. A public -M1B/7497/Ignition options approval document (though clearly not a TCDS update) published by Hartzell would be even better.
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Steve Hutt
West Sussex, UK
RV-7 G-HUTY (not flying yet)
( Tip-UP / TMX-IO-360-M1B / Hartzell 7497-2 / 1x LSE PLASMA III / Dual AF4500's / AF-Pilot AP / 695 )

Last edited by shuttle : 02-08-2010 at 03:13 PM.
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  #15  
Old 02-08-2010, 03:04 PM
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Default Hartzell Engine-Prop Approval Table

is here: http://www.vansairforce.net/faq.htm
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Steve Hutt
West Sussex, UK
RV-7 G-HUTY (not flying yet)
( Tip-UP / TMX-IO-360-M1B / Hartzell 7497-2 / 1x LSE PLASMA III / Dual AF4500's / AF-Pilot AP / 695 )
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  #16  
Old 02-08-2010, 04:11 PM
Flying Scotsman Flying Scotsman is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shuttle View Post
In the 7497 column, we see:

"Engine: IO-360-M1( )
Crank: 180 Hp w/o dampers
Compression: 8.5:1
Ignition: LASAR
Exhaust: Powerflow
"

Van's sells the combo w/ 2 mags and no exhaust (but sells Vetterman's), so this doesn't apply if you buy the "stock" setup.
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RV-7A N660WS flying!
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  #17  
Old 02-08-2010, 05:01 PM
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shuttle shuttle is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Scotsman View Post
In the 7497 column, we see:

"Engine: IO-360-M1( )
Crank: 180 Hp w/o dampers
Compression: 8.5:1
Ignition: LASAR
Exhaust: Powerflow
"

Van's sells the combo w/ 2 mags and no exhaust (but sells Vetterman's), so this doesn't apply if you buy the "stock" setup.
Agreed. I am assuming that LASAR and Powerflow config might have been as per the Diamond DA-40 -M1A certification. If Hartzell can write anything up for the -M1B/7497 it would ideally cover mags and/or EI and leave out any mention of a specific exhaust. I have the standard Vetterman CrossOver exhaust which I guess is the most common RV setup on the -M1B.

This is what's facing Hartzell. Extrapolating from that DA-40 config certification to publish a document that assists RVers (with all the legal/liability/etc questions that may entail).
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Steve Hutt
West Sussex, UK
RV-7 G-HUTY (not flying yet)
( Tip-UP / TMX-IO-360-M1B / Hartzell 7497-2 / 1x LSE PLASMA III / Dual AF4500's / AF-Pilot AP / 695 )
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  #18  
Old 02-17-2010, 02:38 PM
Flying Scotsman Flying Scotsman is offline
 
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Spoke with Les at Hartzell today at length...what a great guy! We talked for quite a while about the various aspects of this issue, and he said they're working on revising paperwork/documentation (and that chart with all the info) and will advise us when it's done. Said for the IO-360-M1B + 7497, no issues for dual mags (the "stock" Van's combination kit), but agreed they need to update their docs, and he will post here to let us know when they get that done.

Totally helpful, nice guy...man, I wish all customer service was like that. Thanks a million, Les!

Steve
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